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Logical Problems with Calvinism

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nobdysfool

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Being saved is not a result of keeping His commandments, Keeping His commandments is the result of being saved. You don't keep His Commandments to GET saved, you keep them because you ARE saved. Important difference.

Newborn babies don't run marathons. What you seem to be demanding of new Christians is far more than they are capable of. No allowance is being made for that, as far as i can see. You seem to be demanding a high level of performance right out of the gate, and telling people that if they don't meet that high level of performance immediately, they are lost and their salvation is worthless. That is hardly Good News. As I said before, babies don't run marathons.

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Christians are not lawless individuals, though. Believers cannot commit sin that leads unto spiritual death like murder, hate, adultery, theft, and drunkeneness, etc. and refuse to confess and forsake such sin and then expect to make it into the Kingdom of God. It doesn't work like that. If that was the case, then everyone would be saved. For even believing on Jesus Christ is a Commandment (1 John 3:23); And sin is transgression of the law or lawlessness (1 John 3:4).

In fact, Jesus said to those who thought they knew Him to depart from Him because they worked iniquity or lawlessness.

Paul says be not deceived. The unrighteous shall not inherit the Kingdom of God. Please keep in mind that God is not a respecter of persons (Which is evident by Jesus criticizing the Pharisees who thought of themselves as God's people). However, their life was one that was hypocritcal, though. This should speak volumes to the believer today. But does every believer today who proclaims the name of Christ departing iniquity? Well, it doesn't seem like that is the case when I talk with believers today. Yet the Bible tells us that those who proclaim the name of Christ are to depart from iniquity (2 Timothy 2:19).

I mean, think for a moment. Bad guys do bad. Not good guys. A Christian cannot think they can abide in horrible unrepentant sin and expect to be in God's good graces. Even in our own culture to have no morals is considered an abomination. They are called sociopaths. So no. There is no such thing as a Sociopathic teaching on Salvation in the Scriptures. You can forget it. If folks want to do evil and think they are saved while doing so, they should know better than that. For the Scriptures say that everyone who does evil hates the Light (John 3:20). The Scriptures also say every man will have to give an account to Him (Romans 14:12). So are you sinning with no remorse or desire to stop? I would be very afraid for you if that was the case, my friend. For fear not him who can destroy the body, but fear him who can destroy both the soul and body in Gehenna (i.e. the Lake of Fire) (Matthew 10:28).


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EmSw

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Being saved is not a result of keeping His commandments, Keeping His commandments is the result of being saved. You don't keep His Commandments to GET saved, you keep them because you ARE saved. Important difference.

I will go with what John said. Will you?

John said if you say you know Him and do not keep His commandments, you are a liar and the truth is not in you.


I find it strange you think newborn Christians can't keep His commandments. John said His commandments aren't burdensome. You seem to think they are. What commandment(s) would a newborn have problems keeping?

1 John 5:3
For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome.

Let's look at other passages from John about His commandments.

1 John 2:3
Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments.

A person knows Jesus if he keeps His commandments. This is pretty straight forward. Do you think a person knows Jesus if he doesn't keep His commandments?

1 John 3:22
And whatever we ask we receive from Him, because we keep His commandments and do those things that are pleasing in His sight.

How does one receive anything if he doesn't keep His commandments and do what is pleasing in His sight? Do you have another way?

1 John 3:24
Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us.

How does a man abide in Christ, and Christ in him, if he doesn't keep His commandments? Do you propose another way?

So I ask, how is one saved if he doesn't know Jesus?
How does one receive anything if keep His commandments?
How does one abide in Jesus, and Jesus in him if he doesn't keep His commandments?
 
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Amen, brother.


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sdowney717

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"In fact, Jesus said to those who thought they knew Him to depart from Him because they worked iniquity or lawlessness."

They jist of what Jesus said there is He did not know them as in, ' I never knew you, depart from me you workers of iniquity' , that is the critical difference between what you said and what He said.
 
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No. See, when a person comes to Jesus and asks to be forgiven, God remembers their past sins no more. It is also the reverse, too. If a believer sins again, all one's past righteousness will be forgotten.

"But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die" (Ezekiel 18:24).

For if a believer sins again, they need to be renewed with the Lord by God's grace by confessing and forsaking their sin. For he that confesses and forsakes sin shall have mercy (Proverbs 28:13).


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sdowney717

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Ha, no, the verse you originally referred to says Jesus never knew them, not that He knew them before but no more!

Matthew 7:23
And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’

See Jason you're thinking stems from your idea that they were once saved then lost.

The way this works in God's kingdom is we were once lost then saved, which is opposite of your thinking.
 
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FreeGrace2

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Let's examine your thoughts on "doing good" a little deeper, and, of course, using Scripture as our guide. Fair enough?

What did Jesus say to the unbelieving Jews and Pharisees? John 5:39 - “You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; it is these that testify about Me".

The Jews were taught by the Pharisees that they would receive eternal life by obeying the Law. It was a works-based system of salvation.

And here, Jesus refutes them directly in their view from the very next verse: "and you are unwilling to come to Me so that you may have life."

The phrase "come to Me" refers to placing their faith in Him FOR eternal life. Just count the times Jesus directly said that eternal life is given on the basis of faith in Him: Jn 3:15,16,18, 5:24, 6:40, 47, 11:25-27. And John the baptizer echoed Jesus' words in 3:36 and John the apostle summarized his gospel by echoing Jesus' words in 20:31.

Now, Paul also echoed Jesus' teaching in Romans. In fact, he refuted those, like you, who believe that by "doing good" one will be saved, or have eternal life.

First, he makes this point: - 6 who will render to each person according to his deeds: 7 to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life Rom 2

Hm. Kinda sounds like what you've been claiming. He even said this: - for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified. Rom 2:13

So, it is really possible for anyone to fulfill either of these verses?

No, for Paul then makes this point crystal clear:
3:9 - What then? Are we better than they? Not at all; for we have already charged that both Jews and Greeks are all under sin;
3:23 - for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God

How clear is that? All have sinned, and all are under sin. Therefore, NO ONE can fulfill what he wrote in 2:6,7,13. His point in those verses is that ONLY those who are perfect would be able to receive eternal life. But he wrote 3:9 and 23 to PROVE that no one can do that.

Not only that, but consider 3:20 - because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin.

Here, he directly SAYS that no one will be justified by keeping the Law, or doing good. That was NOT the purpose of the Law anyway. It was to bring knowledge of man's sin.

Paul even said that in another epistle: "Why the Law then? It was added because of transgressions, having been ordained through angels by the agency of a mediator, until the seed would come to whom the promise had been made." Gal 3:19

iow, the Law came because of man's sin, and was in effect until Christ came, "to whom the promise (of salvation) had been made".

Then, Paul clarifies:
24 Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith.
25 But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.
26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.

The purpose of the Law was to teach us about sin and lead us to Christ, who died for our sins and that we would be justified by faith, NOT WORKS.

v.26 is quite clear about how one becomes a son of God: through faith in Christ. NOT BY WORKS.

One would have to reject All of Romans and all of Galatians in order to accept your view. I will not do it.
 
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sdowney717

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And those OT verses are describing the working of the Old Covenant not the New Covenant.
In the NC, God says this
Hebrews 9
10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.
11 None of them shall teach his neighbor, and none his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them.
12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more.”

First off God becomes their God, and the people of the NC are His people. So they are not cast away by God ever.
v12 clearly says He will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and won't remember their sins.

In the OC, God was not merciful to their unrighteousness when they did not continue in the first covenant, they were cast off (disregarded) as it says.
In the NC they do continue in His covenant since HE writes His laws into and onto them, both minds and hearts, so they are obedient to Christ and are sprinkled with His blood as Peter says, 1 Peter 1.

v7 thru 8 describe the OC
7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second.
8 Because finding fault with them, He says: “Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah—
9 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they did not continue in My covenant, and I disregarded them, says the Lord.

Their are I suppose people who feign their belief whom have not inwardly had God writing His laws into their hearts and minds.

To have His laws put into their minds is only a sure promise for the NC, not the old.
To have His laws written onto their hearts is only a sure promise for the NC, not the old.
And ALL who are truly a part of this NC, have that done for them by God.
 
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Marvin Knox

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Right back at ya!
 
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ToBeLoved

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How do you keep His commandments perfectly? Otherwise you would seem to be a liar according to the verse.
 
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Marvin Knox

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When you say things like "make it into the Kingdom of God" - you do realize, don't you, that the Kingdom of God is within us and is not the same term as being "saved"?
 
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God does not remember your past sins. Why do you think it would be any different for the reverse? See, God does not take into balance what a person does as if they could be an axe murder and also help the poor. It doesn't work like that. God is not going to weigh our good deeds with our evil sinful deeds. The only way to clear one's record is thru confessing and forsaking one's sin. For if one lived righteously and then turns and sins, God will not recognize them as a child of God anymore if they persist in living an evil life. For they would be like the old man and not like the new man. A person born of God lives like the new man who is a slave to righteousness.

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ToBeLoved

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[QUOTE="Jason0047]
For if a believer sins again, they need to be renewed with the Lord by God's grace by confessing and forsaking their sin. For he that confesses and forsakes sin shall have mercy (Proverbs 28:13).


...[/QUOTE]
“He that covereth his sins shall not prosper: but whoso confesseth and forsaketh them shall have mercy.”
‭‭Proverbs‬ ‭28:13‬ ‭KJV‬‬

so this is what I see for this verse and this makes sense to me.
 
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ToBeLoved

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How do you explain the verse that says, 'love covers a multitude of sins'?

Another problem I see with your theory is that one can only serve one master. We all start out not serving God, but when we are born again we are made a new creature in Christ and serve the Lord.

So with this do you think one goes back and forth between serving God and satan? What I have an issue with is God says we cannot serve two masters, so I am not understanding how you can say we are in a yo-yo type position in Christ. That does not make sense to me. Jesus says that no one can remove us from His right hand because the Father who is over all has given us to Him.
 
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GillDouglas

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A man who does not keep the commandments to love God and love his neighbor is not one of us. Yet who are we to say that a man, in his current state of disbelief, is not destined to be become one of us? It is God who chooses, not us. It is God who has the power, not us. It is God who judges, not us. A man who is made new will still struggle with sin, yet he continually strives to love God and his neighbor by the work of the Holy Spirit. It is not until we shed this mortal coil that we become fully sanctified and return to a state like Adam in the beginning. Any man who says he loves God and claims he no longer sins is a liar. It was intended, by His design, that we continue to struggle. If we are fully sanctified and holy as you claim to be, what need do you have for a Savior? What need to you have to pray to Him? What need do you have to go the church, just as a healthy person has no need for a hospital? But even a liar who has been misled by men has the potential for a change of heart and the saving grace of God.
 
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nobdysfool

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I will go with what John said. Will you?

John said if you say you know Him and do not keep His commandments, you are a liar and the truth is not in you.

Not an answer to what i wrote.



The typical twisting of words that others have said. When you were born again, were you so born as a completely mature christian? No, of course not. You had to learn. but you won't make that allowance for anyone else. You apparently think that keeping His commandments is a conscious, deliberate, and effort-filled action that one cannot do except by exertion and deliberate intent. Can't have anyone doing these things automatically, because it is in their new nature to do so. No sir, you have to grind it out.

True Christians keep His commandments, because it is in their nature to do so. if they are not doing so, and not repenting of their failure to do so, then they are not true Christians. This constant trying to indict true Christians with sin is tiresome, and wrong.

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nobdysfool

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It's that straw man they continually point to. They are saying "you may claim to be a christian, but I know you have secret sins that you haven't confessed". Truth is, they don't know that, they can only assume that, because they themselves harbor those secret sins, and the best way to hide that is to get everyone else defending themselves. They love to try and lay guilt-trips on everyone else to deflect from how ineffective they themselves are. If they would obey the Great Commission ( one of Jesus' Commandments, BTW), they wouldn't have time to point out the specks in everyone else's eyes.

It's all smoke and mirrors, and giant straw men.

.
 
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FreeGrace2

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I said this:
"Blanket statements such as "you've been shown many time from Scripture" can be heard from both Arminians regarding loss of salvation as much as from Calvinists regarding the points I challenge them on.

And neither side ever produces verses that actually and plainly and really say what they claim."
Right back at ya!
How about challenging me on what I claim? Or would you rather not?
 
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