Logical Problems with Calvinism

Albion · Dec 20, 2015

Jason0047 said:
John 10:29 is an easy one. Who are the type of sheep that cannot be plucked out the Father's hand? Is it the type of sheep being dragged by their necks against their own wills on leashes? No. Most certainly not. It is the type of sheep that FOLLOW Him.

It is indeed the sheep that follow him. It's not the sheep that don't follow him.

But "Calvinism" nevertheless wins again on the "changed my mind" argument that you've been promoting.

Marvin Knox · Dec 20, 2015

St_Worm2 said:
Ahh, but I thought Received just answered your longstanding question He said, "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day."

But if the Father draws EVERYONE, then John 6:44 tells us that EVERYONE .............

I agree with the head scratch on this point.

I've been saying the very same thing myself.

This passage, IMO, comes under the systematic theology heading of "Well Duhh".

The meaning of the passage is a no-brainer. That's why most good commentaries get it right.

If there seems to be a Calvinistic meaning to the passage (and there is), people should just learn to live with it.

FreeGrace2 · Dec 20, 2015

sdowney717 said:
Which is why they need to be regenerated, be enabled to hear, else no one will be saved.

Except this view is refuted by Jesus Himself who said this:
“Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live." John 5:25

Note that it does NOT SAY "the regenerated will hear". It SAYS "the dead will hear".

How can the "dead" hear anything, according to Calvinistic thinking? They can't. They can't even believe, yet Jesus Himself said that the dead with hear and "will live". Oh, THEN regeneration. How about that!!

FreeGrace2 · Dec 20, 2015

Jason0047 said:
It's not a matter of failing. A person's free will is also involved. God does not force a person to stay saved against their will if they do not want God and His salvation anymore.

...

Except there's not a hint of any verse in the Bible that indicates that any person has the "power" to give away his salvation. And being saved isn't something being "forced" on someone. At salvation, the person is changed into a new creature. Once reborn, that is permanent.

No one can be un-born. iow, one's birth, whether physical or spiritual, cannot be undone. That is impossible.

FreeGrace2 · Dec 20, 2015

Jason0047 said:
Do you see now how OSAS doesn't make any sense?...

It makes just as much sense as the fact that Christ died for everyone. Both are clearly and plainly stated in Scripture.

sdowney717 · Dec 20, 2015

FreeGrace2 said:
Except this view is refuted by Jesus Himself who said this:
“Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live." John 5:25

Note that it does NOT SAY "the regenerated will hear". It SAYS "the dead will hear".

How can the "dead" hear anything, according to Calvinistic thinking? They can't. They can't even believe, yet Jesus Himself said that the dead with hear and "will live". Oh, THEN regeneration. How about that!!

Actually, the dead hearing His voice, is they are dead and He makes them alive who are dead, so He regenerates the dead. Those who hear Him speak, live. The only way a dead man can hear is a supernatural miracle, an act of God.
That they hear, means this a directed word, a targeted word of God to a particular person. Since obviously not all are made alive, of necessity then, not all hear Him speak to them.

sdowney717 · Dec 20, 2015

How did Lazarus hear being dead?
Yet Lazarus comes forth alive from the tomb.
Is that any different really, than God raising the dead by speaking to them as Christ says?
If you can believe the one, why not the other?

Marvin Knox · Dec 20, 2015

FreeGrace2 said:
Except this view is refuted by Jesus Himself who said this:
“Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live." John 5:25

Note that it does NOT SAY "the regenerated will hear". It SAYS "the dead will hear".

How can the "dead" hear anything, according to Calvinistic thinking? They can't. They can't even believe, yet Jesus Himself said that the dead with hear and "will live". Oh, THEN regeneration. How about that!!

You don’t think that the Holy Spirit testifying to our spirit (which is regeneration in Calvin speak) is the voice of the Son of God?

"seeking to know what person or time the Spirit of Christ within them was indicating as He predicted the sufferings of Christ and the glories to follow." 1 Peter 1:11

sdowney717 · Dec 20, 2015

Dead men do not hear in the natural God regarding being made alive for salvation purposes, unless God regenerates them. He does this by speaking to them to come alive.
Maybe he says to them 'live'.
God speaks everything into existence, so why not dead men also?

Matthew 4:4New American Standard Bible (NASB)

4 But He answered and said, “It is written, ‘Man shall not live on bread alone, but on every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God.’”

God has spoken to spiritually dead men, like Balaam. And they are staying dead.

AndOne · Dec 20, 2015

FreeGrace2 said:
I sid this:
"From post #698:
Hammster said:
"With the new heart, a man freely believes. He must give a new heart because with the heart of stone, he will stay in his wicked ways."

My question back to him:
"How come there are believers, with a new heart, who stay in their wicked ways? 2 Cor 12:20 is an example. So was King Saul."

Hammster, could you address this question, please?"

I notice that Hammster hasn't responded, again.

Here's the passage on Saul's regeneration:
1 Sam 10:6 - “Then the Spirit of the LORD will come upon you mightily, and you shall prophesy with them and be changed into another man."

If being "changed into another man" after the Spirit of the LORD has come upon him mightily doesn't refer to regeneration, then please explain what exactly Samuel meant by that.

Hamster probably didn't see it since you didn't use the quote function - convenient....

The verse doesn't mention the heart - still waiting on that from you. Apply the same standards to yourself that you do to us please and find a verse that actually says Saul was given a new heart. Thanks.

Regardless the context of the verse is speaking of a singular event which may or may not include regeneration.

Skala · Dec 20, 2015

Received said:
According to Calvinism, man is unable to come to salvation by his own power, and can only come to salvation through irresistible grace.

Actually, the same is true of non-Calvinism (Arminianism, etc). Except in Arminianism it's called "prevenient grace" not "irresistible grace". Thus, your #1 bullet point should read:

According to Arminianism, man is unable to come to salvation by his own power, and can only come to salvation through prevenient grace.

Therefore, the exact same flow of arguments works equally against your own position, too:

If man is unable to come to salvation by his own power, then he can't help but sin (there is no middle ground between faith and sin).
Therefore, according to Arminianism, man can't help but sin.
Blame implies freedom, such that a person can only be blamed for what he's free to accept or reject. I.e., you can't blame a person for doing that which he can't help but do.
Arminianism holds that the individual isn't free to accept or reject God except through prevenient grace.
Therefore, Arminianism shouldn't place blame on sinners, given that blame implies a freedom to accept or reject God that isn't possible without prevenient grace.
However, Arminianism does place blame on sinners; therefore Arminianismis logically inconsistent.

tldr; I love when synergists forget their own theology!

Received · Dec 20, 2015

Skala said:
Actually, the same is true of non-Calvinism (Arminianism, etc). Except in Arminianism it's called "prevenient grace" not "irresistible grace". Thus, your #1 bullet point should read:

According to Arminianism, man is unable to come to salvation by his own power, and can only come to salvation through prevenient grace.

Therefore, the exact same flow of arguments works equally against your own position, too:

If man is unable to come to salvation by his own power, then he can't help but sin (there is no middle ground between faith and sin).

Therefore, according to Arminianism, man can't help but sin.

Blame implies freedom, such that a person can only be blamed for what he's free to accept or reject. I.e., you can't blame a person for doing that which he can't help but do.

Arminianism holds that the individual isn't free to accept or reject God except through prevenient grace.

Therefore, Arminianism shouldn't place blame on sinners, given that blame implies a freedom to accept or reject God that isn't possible without prevenient grace.

However, Arminianism does place blame on sinners; therefore Arminianismis logically inconsistent.

tldr; I love when synergists forget their own theology!

Actually, it's precisely the freedom to reject grace that makes up non-Calvinist theology. So I diagree: irresistible grace is one thing, and prevenient grace is another, namely resistible grace.

Received · Dec 20, 2015

Marvin Knox said:
I agree with the head scratch on this point.

I've been saying the very same thing myself.

This passage, IMO, comes under the systematic theology heading of "Well Duhh".

The meaning of the passage is a no-brainer. That's why most good commentaries get it right.

If there seems to be a Calvinistic meaning to the passage (and there is), people should just learn to live with it.

I'm glad to hear you admit that Calvinists and their commentaries have no brains.

(Relax, that's a joke.)

Received · Dec 20, 2015

Hammster said:
That makes no sense. It looks like you are saying irresistible grace provides people with the ability to sin. Or something like that. Can you clear it up for me? (Or maybe I'm just tired )

The idea is that you can't help but sin given that the opposite of sin is faith, which is provided only through irresistible grace. Therefore, since sin is necessary, it's like a rock that necessarily falls. It makes no sense to blame people for what they can't help do, and this includes God.

sdowney717 · Dec 20, 2015

Received said:
I'm glad to hear you admit that Calvinists and their commentaries have no brains.

(Relax, that's a joke.)

Out of the heart the mouth speaks or in this case types

Received · Dec 20, 2015

sdowney717 said:
Out of the heart the mouth speaks or in this case types

I'm sure you're the type of guy who thinks Jesus never laughs.

Received · Dec 20, 2015

It seems to go something like this:

Believe something that makes theological sense but doesn't make philosophical or logical sense (e.g., a theology that involves reproaching nonbelievers for not believing, which is possible only through an irresistible grace that God alone gives).
Believe that because (you think) God does it, it's therefore good.
Illogical stuff is bad, and God only does good stuff.
Therefore, God isn't illogical because he's good.

sdowney717 · Dec 20, 2015

Received said:
I'm sure you're the type of guy who thinks Jesus never laughs.

Actually there is one honorable mention for Christ rejoicing.
Where He says God has hidden the gospel from certain people and revealed it to others.

Jesus Rejoices in the Spirit
21 In that hour Jesus rejoiced in the Spirit and said, “I thank You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and prudent and revealed them to babes. Even so, Father, for so it seemed good in Your sight. 22 All things have been delivered to Me by My Father, and no one knows who the Son is except the Father, and who the Father is except the Son, and the one to whom the Son wills to reveal Him.”

Received · Dec 20, 2015

sdowney717 said:
Actually there is one honorable mention for Christ rejoicing.
Where He says God has hidden the gospel from certain people and revealed it to others.

Jesus Rejoices in the Spirit
21 In that hour Jesus rejoiced in the Spirit and said, “I thank You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and prudent and revealed them to babes. Even so, Father, for so it seemed good in Your sight. 22 All things have been delivered to Me by My Father, and no one knows who the Son is except the Father, and who the Father is except the Son, and the one to whom the Son wills to reveal Him.”

I knew you'd use a verse like this.

Fruits of the spirit, sdowney. I don't seem to remember that these fruits only apply to people whose theology you agree with.

sdowney717 · Dec 20, 2015

Received said:
I knew you'd use a verse like this.

Fruits of the spirit, sdowney. I don't seem to remember that these fruits only apply to people whose theology you agree with.

From your own words you will be judged.
I will stick with the Truth of His words.

Logical Problems with Calvinism

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