Logical Problems with Calvinism

jimmyjimmy · Jan 23, 2016

FreeGrace2 said:
Re: John 5:37-40, just recall that 6:45 is still in play. "It is written in the prophets, ‘And they shall all be taught of God.’ Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me."

No one can even hear unless they already His. John 6 comes after John 5. . .

It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh is no help at all. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life. But there are some of you who do not believe.” (For Jesus knew from the beginning who those were who did not believe, and who it was who would betray him.) And he said, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.” (John 6:63-65 ESV)

jimmyjimmy · Jan 23, 2016

FreeGrace2 said:
Here's the problem with Calvinist thought. Free will is ONLY choice. And a free choice at that. Free will is shown whether man obeys God or rebels against Him.

Isa 1:18-20 - 18 “Come now, and let us reason together,” Says the LORD, “Though your sins are as scarlet, They will be as white as snow; Though they are red like crimson, They will be like wool. 19 “If you consent and obey, You will eat the best of the land; 20 “But if you refuse and rebel, You will be devoured by the sword.” Truly, the mouth of the LORD has spoken.

This is free will. To either "consent and obey" or "refuse and rebel". And man is able to do either.

Calvinist ideas are in constrast to Isaiah's.

So, are you saying that some of the listeners to Isaiah did just choose to obey this, and they ate the best of the land? Who are these people who obey the law of God? And, why is there even a new covenant is we simply just obey?

True Science · Jan 23, 2016

John 6 is not to be taken out of context of the other Scriptures.
http://www.examiningcalvinism.com/files/Gospels/John6_44.html

FreeGrace2 · Jan 23, 2016

Cush said:
Which clearly rejects Ephesians 2.

You are stating that man in his natural state has the ability to act in faith, and even perhaps in repentance? Are you familiar with the heresy of Pelagianism? If man has the ability without the intervention of God, why Jesus? As a good moral guide or teacher?

No one here argues that man responds apart from God's intervention.

The issue is that Scripture clearly shows that God had already intervened for all of mankind. So any response on the part of man occurs after what God has already done.

We see God's initiation of action in the garden, after Adam and the woman sinned. It was God who approached them and provided clothing for them and the promise of the Messiah for their spiritual problem. They hid from God.

We know from Acts 17:25-26 that God created mankind to seek Him. So He put a GPS in everyone. We don't choose that "option" when created.

And finally, Rom 1:19 and 20 that because God has revealed Himself to everyone, no one has any excuse for not seeking Him.

So, God has already intervened. All that's left is for man to respond.

Calvinist thought is that God's initiation is regeneration so that man can believe. But that's not biblical.

sdowney717 · Jan 23, 2016

FreeGrace2 said:
The Jesus said otherwise.

John 5:25 - “Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live."

It should be clear that Jesus was speaking figuratively about being spiritually dead, not physically dead. And He says that the spiritually dead (unregenerated) will hear His voice and will live (be born again).

Calvinist theology claims one must be regenerated in order to hear the voice of Christ. They have it backward.

What you quoting there is the regeneration. The dead will hear Him speak to them so they then become alive. Like Lazarus who was dead, Jesus speaks to Lazarus, not every single person in earshot.
'Those who hear will live', they hear because He spoke just to them alone, not all the dead.

FreeGrace2 · Jan 23, 2016

I said this:
"Those who read these passages realize that Paul is noting their former lifestyles as unbelievers and admonishing believers to NOT continue to live like that.

For example: "So this I say, and affirm together with the Lord, that you walk no longer just as the Gentiles also walk, in the futility of their mind," Eph 4:17.

iow, believers are to stop living like unbelievers. The exact SAME word is used in Acts 4:17 when the Pharisees told the disciples to "speak no longer to anyone in this name". iow, they WERE speaking to others in the name of Christ. And the Pharisees ordered them to STOP IT."

Jason0047 said:
But you said this before....

"The Bible plainly says all men are sinners. Not "were" sinners, as you suppose."
~ Quote from: FreeGrace2....

I'm sorry I didn't make myself more clear. My point is the passage in question is to stop acting like unbelievers. Who never confess their sins, cannot be filled with the Spirit nor walk by means of the Spirit. Which is about spiritual growth, not ceasing from all sin.

As long as we live in the tent of our physical bodies, we will sin, just as Paul taught. Don't reject his teachings.

sdowney717 · Jan 23, 2016

FreeGrace2 said:
No one here argues that man responds apart from God's intervention.

The issue is that Scripture clearly shows that God had already intervened for all of mankind. So any response on the part of man occurs after what God has already done.

We see God's initiation of action in the garden, after Adam and the woman sinned. It was God who approached them and provided clothing for them and the promise of the Messiah for their spiritual problem. They hid from God.

We know from Acts 17:25-26 that God created mankind to seek Him. So He put a GPS in everyone. We don't choose that "option" when created.

And finally, Rom 1:19 and 20 that because God has revealed Himself to everyone, no one has any excuse for not seeking Him.

So, God has already intervened. All that's left is for man to respond.

Calvinist thought is that God's initiation is regeneration so that man can believe. But that's not biblical.

Romans 1, God revealed himself to ALL in the things He has made, tis true. If you notice, that revelation does not accomplish any salvation.

This is not though the calling that springs from Him foreknowing us which leads to our glorification, as Romans 8 teaches.

FreeGrace2 · Jan 23, 2016

Jason0047 said:
Well, in reference to Romans 11:29:
Actually, I have already explained this to you back in Post #2173. I said....

"This is spoken to unsaved Israel (But it can apply to all). So the context here is not to saved believers. It does not mean Israel will be saved even if they remain in unbelief."

I've already explained why your explanation fails. The verse is crystal clear. God's gifts are irrevocable. And Paul had previously described what he meant by "gifts". He described both justification and eternal life as God's gifts. Which are both irrevocable.

Post Source:
http://www.christianforums.com/thre...with-calvinism.7914236/page-109#post-69081028

This interpretation makes sense because verse 22 essentially says "we" Gentiles can be cut off (just like the Jews) if we do not continue in his goodness (Romans 11:22).

v.29 refutes any claim that eternal life can be lost. Period.

GillDouglas · Jan 23, 2016

Albion said:
Gill, sdowney, and Em...What I was asking yesterday (a hundred posts ago ) was "What is the official, Calvinist, Reformed, answer to the question?"

Does the doctrine of Predestination correctly refer only to being saved or not...or, OTOH, to every last thing that will happen?

I apologize for not having been clearer about my request, but it looks like a a personal opinion about Predestination was offered in response and then the discussion went off in the direction of debating its contents. See post 3219 if you are interested at this time.

Albion, you may have missed my response to your first question:

GillDouglas said:
The doctrine of Predestination represents all things being the purpose of God as absolute and unconditional, independent of all of the finite creation, and as originating solely in the eternal counsel of His will. His decrees are eternal, unchangeable, holy, wise and sovereign. Everything is included in the all-embracing decrees since all other beings owe their existence and continuance in existence to His creative and sustaining power. It embraces the whole scope of a creatures existence, through time and eternity, comprehending at once all things that ever were or will be in their causes, conditions, successions and relations.

FreeGrace2 · Jan 23, 2016

Cush said:
I refuse to engage you in a game of Scriptural PING PONG. Obviously, addressing the Scriptures at hand proves too difficult. I realize you can copy and paste, but I see no evidence that you can comprehend the meaning of any Scripture.

A cheap shot for sure. Don't you see that others see the same thing in your posts??

Marvin Knox · Jan 23, 2016

Jason0047 said:
Okay. Can God be Sovereign and still make free willed beings?

I believe the answer to that question is a resounding.... "yes."
Can God accomplish His will and plan despite those who reject Him?
And can God accomplish His will and plan with those who accepted Him?
Is not creating man with a free will being in line with God creating him in His image?
Again, I would say, "yes" to all these questions; And they are not in conflict with God's Sovereignty or His rule over mankind....

I say yes as well - as would every Calvinist.

Jason0047 said:
Also, did not God create man with the capacity to have faith since His creation?
How is that different than a regeneration that takes place before faith?
Is not God still the creator of man's capacity to have faith even without some kind of Calvinistic regeneration that proceeds faith?...

Yes He did create man that way.

You do know, don't you, that there has been a drastic change in man's disposition since the creation?

Jason0047 said:
If God does choose totally depraved individuals for salvation, what is the basis for how He chooses them?...

The simple answer is, "whatever glorifies Him the way He wishes to be glorified."

The other answer is that it is none of our business. He's the potter. We're the clay.

Jason0047 said:
If God foreordains or decrees evil to take place as it being a part of His good will, how is that actually a good thing?
...

I'll tell you when I'm glorified.

Jason0047 said:
Wouldn't it make more sense that the evil that takes place is something that man does and God simply allows evil to happen temporarily so as to bring more sons into glory (i.e. to give more space or time for sinners to repent of their wicked ways so as to build up God's Kingdom)?...

I might make sense to just use the word "allows" and let it all go at that if God had not told us that He is intimately involved in every atom in the universe.

We are not and likely never will be independent of the God with whom we have to do.

In Him we live and move and have our being. In the Word of God all things exist.

Ignore those facts if you must. But your theology will be the poorer for it.

Jason0047 said:
However, if God does it all, then this life does not really serve a purpose....

He doesn't "do it all". He works through the creation, including us, to accomplish His purposes - what ever we end up seeing those purposes to be when we reach glory.

The WCF lays it out pretty well for us - even though you surely reject it.

Chapter 5 - II.
"Although in relation to the foreknowledge and decree of God, the first cause, all things come to pass immutably and infallibly, yet, by the same providence, he ordereth them to fall out according to the nature of second causes, either necessarily, freely, or contingently."

I may have preferred that they didn't use the word "cause". But so long as it was made crystal clear earlier in the document that God is in no way to be considered the "author" of sin - I can live with it. I'm not sure what words I would have used - but for their time and place it was probably appopritate the use that word.

This present mess we're subject to does serve a purpose - whether or not we can understand it now given our present circumstances.

FreeGrace2 · Jan 23, 2016

Cush said:
Lets forget Scripture altogether.

Oh, there's a plan!! lol

True Science · Jan 23, 2016

"FreeGrace2 said: ↑
The Jesus said otherwise.

John 5:25 - “Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live."

It should be clear that Jesus was speaking figuratively about being spiritually dead, not physically dead. And He says that the spiritually dead (unregenerated) will hear His voice and will live (be born again).

Calvinist theology claims one must be regenerated in order to hear the voice of Christ. They have it backward."

sdowney717 said:
What you quoting there is the regeneration. The dead will hear Him speak to them so they then become alive. Like Lazarus who was dead, Jesus speaks to Lazarus, not every single person in earshot.
'Those who hear will live', they hear because He spoke just to them alone, not all the dead.

The text is actually literal and figurative. Scripture has multiple meanings. Nothing here requires there to not be a literal meaning. One day all of the dead will literally be raised. And some will be raised to life and some to destruction. So also some who are spiritually raised to life inherit eternal life while others are eventually condemned because they fall away.

Albion · Jan 23, 2016

GillDouglas said:
Albion, you may have missed my response to your first question:

I may have. However, I don't think that conclusively answers the question. I agree that all things are within God's eternal purpose, etc. but I'm not finding a hard and fast answer there that tells me that the doctrine of Predestination means, for example, that I will choose brand A over brand B when in the grocery store and will put on the red shirt instead of the blue one or that I choose not to get on flight 798 when boarding in the terminal because God made me do whatever it was.

Is that the case OR is it, as I've always thought, that being among the Elect (or not) is what Predestination is about, and all the little decisions we make along the way are not predetermined except for God having some overall plan, direction, the "whole scope," etc. (which just about any Christian acknowledges)?

Anyway, I appreciate that you replied to me. It looked like the thread was sweeping past my post again.

sdowney717 · Jan 23, 2016

GillDouglas said:
Albion, you may have missed my response to your first question:

Yes, we begin with the idea of God preserving for Himself a group called the elect who obtain salvation, they do not save and preserve themselves from being Satan (Baal) worshipers, God does this for Himself alone, that salvation will be according to grace alone.

Romans 11, also includes the gentiles along with the jews.

4 But what does the divine response say to him? “I have reserved for Myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal.”5 Even so then, at this present time there is a remnant according to the election of grace. 6 And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work.
7 What then? Israel has not obtained what it seeks; but the elect have obtained it, and the rest were blinded. 8 Just as it is written:

“God has given them a spirit of stupor,
Eyes that they should not see
And ears that they should not hear,
To this very day.”

9 And David says:

“Let their table become a snare and a trap,
A stumbling block and a recompense to them.
10 Let their eyes be darkened, so that they do not see,
And bow down their back always.”

And the chapter ends with

28 Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers. 29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. 30 For as you Gentiles were once disobedient to God, yet have now obtained mercy through their disobedience, 31 even so these Jews also have now been disobedient, that through the mercy shown you Gentiles they also may obtain mercy. 32 For God has committed them all both Jew and Gentile to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all.

33 Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and His ways past finding out!

34 “For who has known the mind of the Lord?
Or who has become His counselor?”
35 “Or who has first given to Him
And it shall be repaid to him?”

36 For of Him and through Him and to Him are all things, to whom be glory forever. Amen.

How far you go with what God is and does with His creation has to do with how you understand 'all things' fit into the creation.

FreeGrace2 · Jan 23, 2016

Hoghead1 said:
I don't know of anyone who would reject salvation. I think that is a nonsensical concept.

So, the Bible teaches nonsensical concepts, eh? Well, surely unbelievers think so.

If your view of universalism were true, then Rev 20:11-15 is just another lie to reject. Is that it? Is that what you've done with that passage?

The Bible is very clear about people going to the lake of fire, which is also called the second death.

And the Bible is just as clear about salvation. What are believers saved from, if not the lake of fire?

I'll be looking for answers.

Albion · Jan 23, 2016

sdowney717 said:
Yes, we begin with the idea of God preserving for Himself a group called the elect who obtain salvation, they do not save and preserve themselves from being Satan (Baal) worshipers, God does this for Himself alone, that salvation will be according to grace alone....How far you go with what God is and does with His creation has to do with how you understand 'all things' fit into the creation.

Apparently, but we're still without a firm answer, if that's the case...and I think that there must BE a definite answer.

GillDouglas · Jan 23, 2016

True Science said:
Here is a paper that shows that Calvinism is nothing but Fatalism in the end. Theistic Fatalism, but Fatalism nonetheless. They cannot escape no matter how much they try to fluff up their position. It is what it is.

http://www.examiningcalvinism.com/files/Complaints/Charge_Fatalism.html

There is only ONE point of agreement between the heathen doctrine of fatalism and Christine doctrine of Predestination in that both assume absolute certainty of all future events. Fatalism has no place for a personal God holding that all events come to pass through the working of a blind, unintelligent, impersonal, non-moral force of nature like a log being carried by a river.

Predestination teaches that from eternity God has had one unified plan or purpose which He is bringing to perfection through this world order of events. It holds that all of His decrees are rational determinations founded on sufficient reason, and that He has fixed on a great goal "toward which the whole creation moves". The ends designed in this plan are first and foremost, the glory of God; and secondly, the good of His people.

FreeGrace2 · Jan 23, 2016

thatbrian said:
No one can even hear unless they already His. John 6 comes after John 5. . .

Oh, good grief. Jesus was clear about WHO hears and will live. The DEAD. He NEVER said that "His" will hear. He said DEAD.

FreeGrace2 · Jan 23, 2016

thatbrian said:
So, are you saying that some of the listeners to Isaiah did just choose to obey this, and they ate the best of the land? Who are these people who obey the law of God? And, why is there even a new covenant is we simply just obey?

Isaiah was giving God's policy regarding who He blesses and who He disciplines. We see the exact same thing in Deut 11 and 30.

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