FreeGrace2
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Haven't you made it quite clear that you'd rather deal with stories than Scripture???There is always time for the Bible.
Jesus never commanded that any of His disciples speak in parables. And I've already shown you WHY He did in the first place. And it wasn't for those who wanted the truth. It was for those who didn't want the truth. Just like what you've indicated.Then you are not following the example of Jesus and what He did.
We'll dispense with all of your theories. Not worth it. And neither she nor Jesus made any analogy.You also would have to ignore the Canaanite's woman of making an analogy, as well. For what? What reason do you have really? Well, I have a few theories.
The Bible does NOT teach conditional salvation. Eternal life is a free gift of God (Rom 6:23). And God's gifts are irrevocable (Rom 11:29). Get used to it.Well, I believe it is relevant because if one believes in such a way, they are using it as a way to prevent them in seeing Conditional Salvation in the Scriptures.
No. And irrelevant, as far as I can see.Are you a Mid Acts Dispensationalist?
No, you've only said that you have. An opinion is not a refutation.And I have proven from Scriptures that you are taking verses out of context to show such a thing.
The sad thing here is God has not revealed what you think is truth. And none of these verses support conditional salvation in any way. But I do understand that you think they do.Anyways, here is a....
Long List of Verses Refuting OSAS (Once Saved Always Saved):
- Matthew 7:21-23 - Jesus only “knows” those who do Father God’s will; all others are practicing lawlessness.
- Matthew 10:33 - Whoever denies Jesus before men He will also deny before His Father in heaven.
- Matthew 12:31-32 - Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven. This means verbally cursing or speaking bad about the Holy Spirit.
- Matthew 13:18-23 - 2 people types (no root, unfruitful) come to eternal life, and then return to the lost state.
- Matthew 18:21-35, Mark 11:25-26 - Forgive men’s sins against you, or God won’t forgive your sins against Him.
- Matthew 25:44-46 - Those who do not help even one needy soul will go into everlasting punishment.
- Mark 8:35-36 - Whoever desires to save his (old) life, or gain the whole world, will lose his soul.
- Mark 9:43-48 - Get rid of whatever causes you to sin; it will cause you to be cast into hell fire.
- Mark 13:13 - But he who endures with his faith to the end (of his life) shall be saved eternally (Also seeMatthew 10:22, Matthew 24:13, Colossians 1:22-23, 1 Timothy 4:16,Hebrews 10:35-39, Revelation 2:10).
- Luke 9:23-25 - Whoever does not deny himself for Jesus’ sake will be destroyed (eternal death).
- Luke 14:26-33 - Jesus warns prospective believers how difficult and costly it is to be His disciple… will they have enough to finish this life of placing Him above all else, bearing their crosses, etc.?
- Luke 18:9-14 - Jesus taught that the man who was more justified was the one who humbled himself and cried out to God for mercy before God vs. the man who did not do so.
- John 3:19, 20 - An important point about "The Condemnation" is that those who loved darkness hate the Light because they loved the pleasure of their own evil deeds, unless of course their deeds should be reproved (that is).
- John 12:25 - He who loves his life in this world will lose it (eternal life) later.
- John 15:1-6 - Christians who do not bear fruit (are not abiding in Jesus) are thrown into the fire.
- John 17:3 - Eternal life is actually “knowing” Father God and Jesus Christ. Do you really know them?
- Romans 1:29-32 - Anyone practicing such sins is deserving of death due to God’s wrath on unrighteousness.
- Romans 2:5-11 - Wrath is coming to those who are unrighteously self-seeking and do not obey the truth.
- Rom 6:15-23 - Be a slave of God and to righteousness for holiness, resulting in holiness and eternal life.
- Romans 8:1-8 - Anyone who is carnally-minded (is living according to the flesh) will die spiritually.
- Romans 8:12-13 - We are not debtors to the flesh; if we live according to the flesh, we will die.
- Romans 11:20-22 - Fear unbelief, that if you do not continue to have faith, you will be cut off like the OT Jews.
- 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 - Anyone practicing such sins is unrighteous, and will not inherit the kingdom of God.
- 1 Corinthians 15:2 - You are saved, if you hold fast to that word (the gospel) … unless you believed in vain.
- 2 Corinthians 7:10 - Godly sorrow over sin leads Christians to repent, which leads to salvation.
- 2 Corinthians 13:5 - Examine and test yourself to see if you are in the faith, unless you are disqualified.
- Galatians 5:1-4 - Christians are warned: those who later have attempted to be justified by law, … have been estranged from Christ and have fallen from grace.
- Galatians 5:19-21 - Anyone practicing such sins (the works of the flesh) will not inherit the kingdom of God.
- Galatians 5:24 - Those who are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.
- Galatians 6:7-8 - Don't be deceived: sowing to the flesh reaps corruption, sowing to the Spirit reaps eternal life.
- Ephesians 5:3-6 - Believers practicing such sins will not inherit God’s kingdom, but will incur the wrath of God.
- Ephesians 5:25-27 - Jesus gave Himself for a glorious Church which will be sanctified, holy, without blemish.
- Philippians 2:12-16 - Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, holding fast the word of life …
… so that: (1) you may become blameless, and (2) Paul did not labor in vain concerning you.
- Philippians 3:7-14 - Paul presses on to attaining the goal of gaining Christ, knowing Him, and being found in Him.
- Colossians 1:21-29 - Jesus’ desires (and Paul labors to warn and teach) to present “holy and blameless” and “perfect in Christ Jesus” those who continue in faith, not moved away from the hope of the gospel.
- Colossians 3:5-6 - Believers practicing such sins beware: the wrath of God will come upon sons of disobedience.
- 1 Timothy 4:1 - Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith.
- 1 Timothy 5:11-15 - Some younger widows are condemned; they cast off their first faith and turned after Satan.
- 1 Timothy 6:3-4 - Paul says that if any man teaches contrary to the words of Jesus and the doctrine of Christ is proud knowing nothing.
- 1 Timothy 6:9-14 - Greed and love of money drowns men in destruction and perdition; Instead, pursue godliness and lay hold on eternal life (and keep this command without blame).
- 1 Timothy 6:17-19 - Commands for the rich (yes, Christians) to follow, so they may lay hold on eternal life.
- Titus 1:1-3 - Faith and knowledge of the truth lead to godliness, in the hope of eternal life.
- Hebrews 2:1-4 - Warning about drifting away: how shall we escape, if we drift and neglect so great a salvation?
- Hebrews 3:6 - We belong to Christ, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm to the end.
- Hebrews 3:12-15 - Beware of an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God, being hardened through the deceitfulness of sin, for we are only partakers of Christ if we hold steadfast to the end.
- Hebrews 3:17-19 - The OT Jews who sinned (did not obey) could not enter into God’s rest (the Promised Land).
- Hebrews 4:1 - Let us fear lest any of us come short of entering God’s rest (God’s promise of salvation).
- Hebrews 4:11 - Be diligent to enter into that rest, lest anyone fall according to the OT example of disobedience.
- Hebrews 6:4-8 - Those enlightened and partakers of the Holy Spirit who fall away will be rejected and burned.
- Hebrews 10:26-27 - If we sin willfully after receiving knowledge of the truth, expect God’s fiery judgment.
- Hebrews 10:29-31 - The Lord will judge His people. “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay”, says the Lord.
- Hebrews 10:35-39 - Endure in the faith, and do not be like those who draw back to perdition.
- Hebrews 12:14-15 - Pursue holiness (w/o which no one will see the Lord) lest anyone falls short of God’s grace.
- Hebrews 12:15-17 - Many believers become defiled, and finding no place for repentance, are rejected.
- James 1:12-16 - Love the Lord, endure temptation to sin; do not be deceived, sin results in spiritual death.
- 1 Peter 1:8-9 - Believing, you will receive the end of your (enduring) faith—the salvation of your souls.
- 2 Peter 1:10-11 - Be diligent to make your call & election sure, so you won’t stumble, but gain the kingdom.
- 2 Peter 2:1, 14 - The false prophets (i.e. believers) are those who have eyes full of adultery and cannot cease from sin.
- 2 Peter 2:20-22 - If Christians are overcome by worldly sins, they are worse off than they were before knowing the way of righteousness, they turned from the holy commandment delivered to them.
- 1 John 1:9 - If we confess our sins, God will forgive our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
- 1 John 2:3-5 - We are sure that we “know” God and are “in” Him, if we keep His commandments.
- 1 John 2:24-25 - If God’s word does not abide in us, the Father and the Son will not abide in us, nor we in Them, and we will not receive the promised eternal life.
- 1 John 3:15 - If you hate your brother, you’re like a murderer who has no eternal life abiding in him.
- Jude 1:4 NIV - There are those false believers who turn the grace of our God into a license for immorality
- Jude 1:20-21 - 3 things for Christians to do, while looking for God’s mercy unto eternal life.
- Revelation 2:10 - Be faithful until death and Jesus will give you the crown of (eternal) life (Also see Mark 13:13 above).
- Revelation 2:11 - He who overcomes shall not be hurt by the second death (eternal death).
- Revelation 3:5 - He who overcomes will not have his name blotted out from the Book of Life.
- Revelation 14:9-11 - Those that worship the Beast and take his mark drink of the wine of the Wrath of God and will be thrown in the Lake of Fire.
- Revelation 21:8 - Anyone practicing such sins will go into the lake of fire, which is the second death.
- Revelation 21:27 - Anyone practicing such sins is not in the Book of Life, and will not enter the New Jerusalem.
- Revelation 22:14 - Anyone who does not do God’s commandments does not have the right to the tree of life.
- Revelation 22:15 - Anyone practicing such sins will be outside the gates of the New Jerusalem.
- Revelation 22:18 - If any man takes away from the prophecy of the book (i.e. the Scriptures), God will take away their name out of the Book of Life.
Well, I believe it is the truth based on what God has revealed to me within His Word.
Been there done that, babble subjectlessly awayThere is always time for the Bible. In the Scriptures, the Prodigal Son had eaten with the hogs during his time of riotious and sinful living. When the son returned to the father, he said his son was once dead and is now alive again "twice." This lets us know that sin is not an acceptable choice for God concerning the believer. Yes, a believer can struggle with sin, but God is concerned with us overcoming our sin and He would definitely not be apathetic if we thought that we could remain in them (even if it is a conscious choice to sin on occasion a little over the rest of our lives). As if saying that one sinning on occasion versus sinning a lot makes it okay with God somehow.
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Nope. Paul clearly indicated it in Romans 7, a chapter that it seems you're totally unwilling to face.
And John clearly indicated it in 1 Jn 1:8 and 10.
The phrase "sin still be saved doctrine" is an obvious suggestion that sin causes loss of salvation. Which is unbiblical.
Sin cannot separate us from God because Christ died for all our sins.
And you have failed to deal with that truth. When will you?
Rom 6 was written to and applies to believers.
You've still failed to prove that man can become sinless during this life.
otoh, you have been accused correctly. And those who have accused you are correct.
Here's again where you're off track. Truth is determined ONLY by what Scripture says. The "real world" has nothing to do with truth.
You know why? Probably not. So I'll tell you. The devil is the god of this world, and the prince of the power of the air. And during the Tribulation, the anti-christ and false prophet will perform many miracles, which is hardly "the truth". It's total deception.
What makes anyone think I don't do that daily?
Stop judging what you obviously have no clue about.
None of this proves or concludes that one can become sinless. You yourself have admitted that you haven't become sinless. Does that mean you're not saved? Remember post #2344?
This is nonsense. I'm not nor have ever defending "man to live in sin". For any length of time.
Your problem is how you take an idea and then twist it all out of shape into something it is not.
I have been clear. Believers will never be sinless during their life on earth. But believers are to sin less.
Apparently you have ignored what I've posted. When the believer grows up spiritually, they WILL sin less. Much less, in fact. But the truth is that we still have the sin nature and there will always be a struggle between the sin and new nature.
Listen to the truth: Gal 5:16,17 -
16 But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not carry out the desire of the flesh.
17 For the flesh sets its desire against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; for these are in opposition to one another, so that you may not do the things that you please.
The use of parables and or analogies in Scripture were made as an example by our Lord. Even the Canaanite woman had made such examples.Haven't you made it quite clear that you'd rather deal with stories than Scripture???
Everything that you said fits in properly with what Job8 used in his parable.Well, having a new heart (from a heart transplant) does not mean you are immune to destroying your life that would be any different than when you had your old heart. See, the problem in your parable is that you are minimizing sin. But let's look at one of them. Drinking heavily. Well, the Bible would call this drunkenness; And the Bible says drunkards shall not inherit the Kingdom of God. Also, the Bible says that if you defile the temple, God will destroy you. Also, your parable speaks nothing of the other horrible sins that a person can do whereby they would need to face some kind of proper justice. For I doubt a new heart transplant would make it okay with God if they decided to go out and kill a bunch of people or rape people. Surely these kinds of sins would not be covered by God.
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In your parable the alcoholic is thrown out of the class be the teacher if he slips.The program that the alcoholic enters himself into would be paralled to a believer engaging with God so as to overcome his sin. So no. I am not suggesting a Man directed works salvation program. I am suggesting that a believer submits to God whereby they then let God work and move within their life. ....
The heart of a person is the spirit of the person. The Holy Spirit, as I see it, convicts at a spirit level.................... To open the heart suggests providing understanding. Which is the ministry of the Holy Spirit in conviction. But opening a heart for understanding doesn't always result in a proper response.
Much as with the doctrine of limited atonement - I take issue somewhat with the way irresistable grace is taught by some or even most Calvinists............. But opening a heart for understanding doesn't always result in a proper response.
These forums do have their limitations though, don't they? Maybe I need to write a book. Of course someone here will likely tell me that I usually do whenever I make a long post....I think that's how these forums generally work.
Suffice it to say that I disagree with you on what several verses that you often use teach. Let' not go through them again here. We've already done it a dozen time or so before this.I must cite Eph 2:5 which indicates to me that "being made alive" and "having been saved" occur at the same time. This is also the indication from Greek grammar of 1 Jn 5:1 - Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and whoever loves the Father loves the child born of Him.
The words "whoever believes" is a present participle - "the believing ones". Present participles occur at the same time as the action of the main verb, which is "born of God". So believing and being born of God happen at the same time.
Now, Eph 2:8 gives us the order of believing and being saved: we are saved through faith. No faith, no salvation. Since regeneration (made alive) and salvation occur at the same time, and faith precedes salvation, we know that regeneration cannot precede salvation or faith.
Just what I have read from Scripture.
I see the Free Grace view totally compatible with all of Scripture. God created mankind with the freedom to choose for or against Him. Some seek, many do not.
My understanding of election is rather clear from Epoh 1:4 about who it is that God has elected. "us". And, who are the "us"? Paul defines that for us in 1:19 - "those who believe".
So Eph 1:4 says that God has chosen believers to be holy and blameless.
There are a number of verses that also say that we (believers) have been called (invited - kletos) to be holy and blameless.
The phrase "holy and blameless" indicates service to God. Those who aren't holy and blameless cannot serve God.
And the ISBE makes a good case for defining election as "being chosen for special privilege and service".
In fact, in all 6 categories of what the Bible describes as being "elect", none are for salvation and all are for special privilege and service.
As you've been told many times - you understanding of Calvinist doctrine is deficient.If man is totally depraved then how is man capable of doing any kind of good deed like in loving their children and or in helping the poor? Can a totally depraved person lay down his life as a sacrifice so as to save another human soul? Does that sound like a totally depraved person? Granted, I am not saying unbelievers are not slaves to sin. In addition, their motivations are without God. But again, the split second instinct like decisions they may make out of love to save the life of another is not something I would claim as Total Depravity, though.
The Bible says that the wicked can turn from their wickedness.
"But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die" (Ezekiel 18:21).In other words, this verse should above not be in the Bible if what you say is true. For according to Calvinism, the wicked cannot turn from their sins without some kind of regeneration. ...
You have an extremely shallow conception of what God means by "dead" and "alive".TIn the Scriptures, the Prodigal Son had eaten with the hogs during his time of riotious and sinful living. When the son returned to the father, he said his son was once dead and is now alive again "twice." ...
What I have found is that many people are so much into intellectual understanding (which is often incorrect without spiritual thought) rather than in conjunction with the Spirit and spiritual things. What it really shows is lack of trust in God to guide our lives and to take that step close to the edge of the mountain, knowing that He will not let us fall. It is a shame for many to miss out on all God offers us.You have an extremely shallow conception of what God means by "dead" and "alive".
That's a whole lot of false teaching.I have been talking against Calvinism and OSAS for many years now.....
The rejection of the truth we have in the scriptures has a snowball effect on false teachers. There is an active principle concerning how God deals with people in the stewardship that comes into play in spiritual matters just as there is in financial matters.What I have found is that many people are so much into intellectual understanding (which is often incorrect without spiritual thought) rather than in conjunction with the Spirit and spiritual things. What it really shows is lack of trust in God to guide our lives and to take that step close to the edge of the mountain, knowing that He will not let us fall. It is a shame for many to miss out on all God offers us.
What you have seen as well as myself, FreeGrace2 and countless others on this thread is that there is a spiritual insight that is missing, not on one issue, or two or three but over and over. Somehow, those who have the Holy Spirit pick up no spirituality or spiritual connection to scripture. I have NEVER found that to be true. To love God is to be motivated by that love and that is mostly spiritual.
If I was in this situation I would be praying often for spiritual insight and hearing everyone who shared spiritual insight, but what it goes to show is action and searching for the fullness of God can only be found when one listens and learns.
It's too bad. I agree with your statement above. One has to be open to the Holy Spirit's teaching because the Holy Spirit does not hit one over the head with a frying pan. In love the Holy Spirit teaches and teaches much more those who seek Him and spirituality.
It might be way too big a subject to tackle.Which is one of the reasons I disagree with Arminianism.
Not just some kind of regeneration, the ONLY kind of regeneration brought about by the work of the Holy Spirit that which changes the condition of the hard heart. Out of mere grace and love, without any foresight of faith or good works, God causes specific men to turn to Him. The method in which God has chosen for these specific individuals to come to that point in their life is different from person to person as their testimony alone is proof enough. Whether its hearing the Word, reading the Word or witnessing the Word in action, ultimately the power of the living Word derives from God Himself.
Then please show HOW. Just making such a statement doesn't prove anything. Prove your claim.But if your interpretation is true, then Paul contradicted himself when he said he was sold under sin in Romans 7:14 and yet he was free from sin in Romans 8:2.
You really aren't following what others are saying, are you? I NEVER said "always have sin in our life". My point has been clear and consistent: when the believer spiritually grows in grace, they will sin less. That's not "sin always in our life".Again, this does not mean what you think it says. It cannot mean to say that we will have sin always in our life because 1 John 2:4 refutes such a notion. For he that does not keep his commandments and says he knows him is a liar and the truth is not in him.
Unbelievers are separated from God spiritually. Believers are separated from God in fellowship.No it's not. Sin has always been a loss of separation between God and man (Which began for man with his one act of disobedience in the Garden of Eden).
Thos who have actually read the Bible and understand it know better. Hebrews says that Christ's sacrifice was for sin once for all.No. The Bible does not say future sin is paid for.
Correct. Because Christ already died for sins once for all. He is the ultimate and final sacrifice. The verse is a repeat of v.18 - Now where there is forgiveness of these things, there is no longer any offering for sin.On the contrary, Hebrews 10:26 says if we willfully sin after having received the knowledge of the truth, there remains no more sacrifice for sin.
What is the theme of ch 1? Fellowship, not relationship. The chapter is to believers, who are already saved.1 John 1:9 says we have to confess sin in order to be forgiven of sin.
Which is accomplished through confession for fellowship.1 John 1:7 says we have to walk in the light as he is in the light in order for the blood of Jesus to cleanse us from all sin.
You have failed to prove how this verse supports your theory.Proverbs 28:13 says we have to confess and forsake sin in order to have mercy. So no. You are wrong.
You are so confused. Of course they weren't saved. They thought they could earn eternal life by keeping the law. Which they couldn't.You are the one who is failing to see what the Scriptures are plainly saying. If what you say is true, then the Pharisees should have been saved. But Jesus said they were hypocrites and they lived a hypocrital and sinful life.
I agree. And this verse still does not support your theory.And you do not understand what Romans 6 says. Paul clearly says shall we continue in sin so that grace may abound? Paul's answer to that question is "God forbid."
The more we yield to the Spirit, the LESS we sin.He then says yield yourselves to whom ye obey.
I've refuted those verses. They don't occur in the original manuscripts.No. I have proved it very clearly by God's Word. You are simply not wanting to see what the Scriptures plainly say. 1 Peter 4:1, Galatians 5:24, and many others refute your belief. Jesus said to two people to: "sin no more."
What a ridiculous question. Seriously? Jesus NEVER suggested His disciples speak in parables. Neither did Paul.So Jesus's parables and other analogies are a deception?
Wrong. It comes from the Bible. As been proven and you've rejected.I have been talking against Calvinism and OSAS for many years now. Yes, you do not believe in Calvinism, but that is where OSAS comes from.
Who on this thread ever said they "will sin forever"? No one. So stop making claims that no one says. I've been clear about ceasing sin when we obtain a resurrection body. And there will be no sin in heaven.But if a believer makes excuses for sin by saying they will forever sin, then they are believing in a sin and still be saved doctrine (Which is wrong).
Again, you keep trying to paint a very false picture that believers constantly sin. Stop it. It's impossible for believers to achieve sinless perfection.You yourself said it is impossible for a beleiver to stop sinning.
Don't be ridiculous. No one has a green light, nor a license. We do have sin natures, that do sin.So this gives the believer the green light to sin on occasion.
You've got the wrong attitude about a lot of doctrine.Yes, you believe a believer should strive to live holy and to repent of sin, etc. But that doesn't mean anything if one thinks they will just forever sin in this life. It's making an allowance for evil. It is having the wrong attitude towards sin.
When did man need to be taught to sin?? That is laughable.Which is teaching man to sin.
Well, yeah, some people view 13 as unlucky.Suffice it to say that I disagree with you on what several verses that you often use teach. Let' not go through them again here. We've already done it a dozen time or so before this.
For you maybe. With my doctrine there's no luck to it - just the truth and nothing but the truth..Well, yeah, some people view 13 as unlucky.
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