Logical Problems with Calvinism

Albion · Jan 14, 2016

Jason0047 said:
I am not expecting every Calvinistic statement in the article to match up with your viewpoint. The point is that some of those statement more than likely do match up with what you believe, though.....

Jason, you didn't quote me or refer to me, and you said that it was for "the Calvinists here." The last thing I thought when reading that was that your intention was to ask me to compare my own thinking with that website.

In addition, it's not an exposition of Calvinist thinking but, rather, it's an article that's critical of it, so that wouldn't be of much use in defining Calvinist POVs anyway.

Marvin Knox · Jan 14, 2016

Jason0047 said:
To the Calvinist:
Do you believe there are choices that man makes that goes against God's will?...

I'm back a little sooner than I thought I would be.

Speaking as one who is often associated with Calvinists - the answer is "of course"!

The concept of God's absolute will and His permissive will is rather basic to understanding most anything to do with Christianity.

How one explains these concepts varies between those who believe in absolute sovereignty and those who do not.

But the issues surrounding God allowing (or decreeing if you will) all that happens, including evil, has to be faced by both Calvinist and non-Calvinist alike.

Just spouting some vague platitudes about "free will" doesn't get the non-Calvinist off the hook. For most non-sovereignty types - it's a matter of pretending that they have solved the issues involved simply by attacking sovereignty types.

I view that as being a little like whistling through a grave yard

Marvin Knox · Jan 14, 2016

Jason0047 said:
....................It is no different if you tell people there are no consequences to a believer's sin in the after-life....

No one here, that I know of, tells people that. Can you show a post that said that? If so - please do - or please stop misrepresenting what others here teach.

Jason0047 said:
....................Anyways, we know that Antinomianism (OSAS)...........

The doctrine of eternal security of the believer is not antinominaism.

Please stop misrepresenting the teaching of others.

I ask you , along with others here, for the umteenth time. Please stop sinning against your brothers and sisters in that way.

Your salvation (assuming you are saved) doesn't depend on you stopping your sinning. But you will hear about it and suffer loss at the Judgment Seat of Christ if you will not REPENT of this sin.

ToBeLoved · Jan 14, 2016

GillDouglas said:
You're making assumptions about Calvinists. All things without exception are disposed by God, and His will is the ultimate account of all that occurs. He permits all that He wills, including the actions of men, so that what He has ordained will come to pass. However, individual personalities and second causes are fully recognized, not as independent of God, but as having their proper place in His plan. Men are still responsible for their actions.

Salvation is a gift given by God, a gift not to be taken lightly. It's not something that can be independently acquired or thrown away. Our salvation flows from the fountain of God's mercy and He adopts us, not all promiscuously to the hope of salvation, but rather He surely gives to some what He definitely refuses to others. (Ephesians 1:5) (Romans 8) (John 6:37) To truly grasp what we believe you must understand the nature of men before regeneration. Men are cursed and cursed men are unable to perform any spiritual actions, only actions befitting of their sinful nature. A curse man is a unknowing captive, in fact a willing slave to sin, and entirely unable to deliver himself from its bondage nor would he care to do so until he is made willing by God. Once that change is made, he is no longer a slave to sin but to God. (Romans 6) (2 Corinthians 4)

Nothing, however small, occurs without His ordering or design for its place in the working out of His purposes; and the end of all shall be the manifestation of His glory. The sinful acts of men are included in this plan, even the fall itself. These acts are foreseen, permitted and have their exact place in the Divine design. Just look at the crucifixion of Christ for the example, being both a horrible sinful crime and the saving event for His people, it had its exact and necessary place in the plan as told by the prophets. You probably want to explain this a bit further. I'm sure no one who calls themselves Calvinist would agree to you saying hate is the drive behind our beliefs. The only thing I hate is my old sinful nature and the flesh I'm trapped in.

Faith is what men must have to come to Christ. And faith comes by hearing the Word of God.

One is not regrenerated for that to happen.

Marvin Knox · Jan 14, 2016

Jason0047 said:
Just check out these testimonies below.

Antinomianism Audio Testimonies:
Testimonies of former eternal security believers

Suicide & Antinomianism:
A tragic story of an OSAS believer.

A Pastor's Testimony on Antinomianism:
A testimony about OSAS by a Pastor's wife.

Hooked on Sin & Antinomianism:
Out Of Darkness | NO Eternal Security | Christian Testimony

George Sodini - Mass Murderer and Suicide Victim:
http://eternalsecurity.us/george_sodini.htm
...

For every one of these testimonies there is at least another looking at things from the other side of the issue.

But my own testimony will suffice to make the point.

I accepted the Lord at 13 years old. My conversion was as real as a conversion can possibly be.

I struggled for over a year with the the lustful sins that are common to young men entering puberty. Most of them were of the mind only. But as many more were of a physical nature.

I had been taught that my salvation depended on overcoming these sins - much the same as your teaching here.

My life was a living Hell as I sinned and sinned again - each occurrence accompanied by repentance with tears and contrition to get back in the good graces of God. The emotional pain was unbearable.

The time came when I consciously walked away from Christianity rather than live such a life of condemnation.

I soon entered into more and more sin - too graphic to tell about here. I became an agnostic in time. I acted and talked more like an atheist as I railed against Christianity and worked to undermine the faith of believers for the better part of two decades.

Graciously the Lord was faithful to His promises and reigned me in. I became a believer again.

The first thing I did was find out what the scriptures taught about how a person gets saved and how he "stays" saved. I have never wavered from the most basic parts of the doctrine I learned in that exhaustive study.

I found that the truth was a far cry from what I had been taught and, by the way, what you teach.

I have ventured into sin sometimes in the last 4 decades plus. But for the most part I have served faithfully with my life the One to whom I owe my salvation.

I come back to Him each time I do something that isn't pleasing to Him - not out of fear but out of love for Him.

I serve Him because He loves me and has saved me for all eternity. I do not serve Him in order to obtain His love or to get saved or to stay saved.

You've commented in the past that my posts sometimes seem hostile to you. That is true. Not only am I borderline hostile to you - I am sometimes equally hostile to others of your ilk as well.

It is because false teachers like you cost me the prime of my life in the Lord - which I can never get back again.

I hurt not only myself. I hurt a great many other people in those terrible lost years - a great many of them were Christians.

I wish I could undo what was done. But I cannot.

I doubt that this will cause you to leave off your pet project of undermining the faith of believers. But I wish with all my heart that you would repent of teaching your false gospel here in the forum.

I feel that way for two reasons. The first is that I am convinced that you may be causing some weaker brothers and sisters who are reading along to stumble.

The second is that if, perchance, you are saved in spite of your works based "gospel" - you will suffer great loss at the stricter judgment that awaits you as a teacher.

FreeGrace2 · Jan 14, 2016

Jason0047 said:
No. That is just silly. Anytime anyone writes here, they are trying to prove their position or view from the Scriptures....

There is nothing silly between the words and meanings of fellowship and relationship. Those who reject the difference will continue to fail to understand Scripture.

Relationship is perament, just as the relationship between birth parent to child. The same for spiritual relationship with God, our Father.

Fellowship is dynamic and is the quality (or lack thereof) in the relationship. Well illustrated by the prodigal son. While he was totally out of fellowship to the point of his father saying that his son was "dead", meaning separated from him, he was always a son to his father.

When he returned to his father, fellowship was restored, not his status as son.

FreeGrace2 · Jan 14, 2016

Jason0047 said:
I will still be waiting on that parable from you when you are serious enough to face your own belief (for what it really is)....

Apparently you're beyond hope. Because the reality of Scripture always trumps any kind of "parable" by any mortal human. But you've clearly indicated your disinterest in Scriptural truth.

ToBeLoved · Jan 14, 2016

Marvin Knox said:
For every one of these testimonies there is at least another looking at things from the other side of the issue.

But my own testimony will suffice to make the point.

I accepted the Lord at 13 years old. My conversion was as real as a conversion can possibly be.

I struggled for over a year with the the lustful sins that are common to young men entering puberty. Most of them were of the mind only. But as many more were of a physical nature.

I had been taught that my salvation depended on overcoming these sins - much the same as your teaching here.

My life was a living Hell as I sinned and sinned again - each occurrence accompanied by repentance with tears and contrition to get back in the good graces of God. The emotional pain was unbearable.

The time came when I consciously walked away from Christianity rather than live such a life of condemnation.

I soon entered into more and more sin - too graphic to tell about here. I became an agnostic in time. I acted and talked more like an atheist as I railed against Christianity and worked to undermine the faith of believers for the better part of two decades.

Graciously the Lord was faithful to His promises and reigned me in. I became a believer again.

The first thing I did was find out what the scriptures taught about how a person gets saved and how he "stays" saved. I have never wavered from the most basic parts of the doctrine I learned in that exhaustive study.

I found that the truth was a far cry from what I had been taught and, by the way, what you teach.

I have ventured into sin sometimes in the last 4 decades plus. But for the most part I have served faithfully with my life the One to whom I owe my salvation.

I come back to Him each time I do something that isn't pleasing to Him - not out of fear but out of love for Him.

I serve Him because He loves me and has saved me for all eternity. I do not serve Him in order to obtain His love or to get saved or to stay saved.

You've commented in the past that my posts sometimes seem hostile to you. That is true. Not only am I borderline hostile to you - I am sometimes equally hostile to others of your ilk as well.

It is because false teachers like you cost me the prime of my life in the Lord - which I can never get back again.

I hurt not only myself. I hurt a great many other people in those terrible lost years - a great many of them were Christians.

I wish I could undo what was done. But I cannot.

I doubt that this will cause you to leave off your pet project of undermining the faith of believers. But I wish with all my heart that you would repent of teaching your false gospel here in the forum.

I feel that way for two reasons. The first is that I am convinced that you may be causing some weaker brothers and sisters who are reading along to stumble.

The second is that if, perchance, you are saved in spite of your works based "gospel" - you will suffer great loss at the stricter judgment that awaits you as a teacher.

I appreciate your testimony. [emoji3]

jimmyjimmy · Jan 14, 2016

Jason0047 said:
Does the fashion of the times have any benefit spiritually? No.

Can we accept worship like Jesus?
No. Such a thing does not apply to mankind. For we are not God (who alone is to be worshipped).

Can we die upon the cross for mankind's sins and rise from the grave to conquer death and ascend into Heaven to be man's Heavenly high priest? No. Such a thing does not apply to mankind. For we are not God (who is the Saviour of mankind).

Can we use a parable like Christ and like the Canaanite woman? Yes. Jesus was able to speak in such a way whereby only his disciples were able to hear and understand Him. So Christ speaking in parables had an actual purpose or benefit for his followers. Furthermore, Jesus commended the faith of the Canaanite woman and healed her daughter of being possessed by a devil that very hour all because she was able to make a real world example or parable of her own (that expounded upon the parable Jesus had said to her).

In fact, you can read the encounter between Jesus and the Canaanite woman here for yourself (if you don't believe me).

“Then Jesus went thence, and departed into the coasts of Tyre and Sidon. And, behold, a woman of Canaan came out of the same coasts, and cried unto him, saying, Have mercy on me, O Lord, thou Son of David; my daughter is grievously vexed with a devil. But he answered her not a word. And his disciples came and besought him, saying, Send her away; for she crieth after us. But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel. Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me. But he answered and said, It is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it to dogs. And she said, Truth, Lord: yet the dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from their masters' table. Then Jesus answered and said unto her, O woman, great is thy faith: be it unto thee even as thou wilt. And her daughter was made whole from that very hour.”
‭‭(Matthew‬ ‭15:21-28‬).

So do you honestly expect me to believe there is no benefit to speaking in parables? Not a chance, my friend. I believe you do not want to admit that believers can use parables because you are afraid deep down that it will expose OSAS to be a lie to you, my friend.

...

Do you have example of either Jesus instructing us to speak in parables of the apostles doing such?

jimmyjimmy · Jan 14, 2016

Albion said:
All in all, your perspective, Jason, looks to me to be closest to a Freewill POV with some sort of works righteousness attached.

I concur.

GillDouglas · Jan 14, 2016

Marvin Knox said:
For every one of these testimonies there is at least another looking at things from the other side of the issue.

But my own testimony will suffice to make the point.

I accepted the Lord at 13 years old. My conversion was as real as a conversion can possibly be.

I struggled for over a year with the the lustful sins that are common to young men entering puberty. Most of them were of the mind only. But as many more were of a physical nature.

I had been taught that my salvation depended on overcoming these sins - much the same as your teaching here.

My life was a living Hell as I sinned and sinned again - each occurrence accompanied by repentance with tears and contrition to get back in the good graces of God. The emotional pain was unbearable.

The time came when I consciously walked away from Christianity rather than live such a life of condemnation.

I soon entered into more and more sin - too graphic to tell about here. I became an agnostic in time. I acted and talked more like an atheist as I railed against Christianity and worked to undermine the faith of believers for the better part of two decades.

Graciously the Lord was faithful to His promises and reigned me in. I became a believer again.

The first thing I did was find out what the scriptures taught about how a person gets saved and how he "stays" saved. I have never wavered from the most basic parts of the doctrine I learned in that exhaustive study.

I found that the truth was a far cry from what I had been taught and, by the way, what you teach.

I have ventured into sin sometimes in the last 4 decades plus. But for the most part I have served faithfully with my life the One to whom I owe my salvation.

I come back to Him each time I do something that isn't pleasing to Him - not out of fear but out of love for Him.

I serve Him because He loves me and has saved me for all eternity. I do not serve Him in order to obtain His love or to get saved or to stay saved.

You've commented in the past that my posts sometimes seem hostile to you. That is true. Not only am I borderline hostile to you - I am sometimes equally hostile to others of your ilk as well.

It is because false teachers like you cost me the prime of my life in the Lord - which I can never get back again.

I hurt not only myself. I hurt a great many other people in those terrible lost years - a great many of them were Christians.

I wish I could undo what was done. But I cannot.

I doubt that this will cause you to leave off your pet project of undermining the faith of believers. But I wish with all my heart that you would repent of teaching your false gospel here in the forum.

I feel that way for two reasons. The first is that I am convinced that you may be causing some weaker brothers and sisters who are reading along to stumble.

The second is that if, perchance, you are saved in spite of your works based "gospel" - you will suffer great loss at the stricter judgment that awaits you as a teacher.

Thanks for sharing your testimony brother. Truly amazing, the work that God does within us.

Winken · Jan 14, 2016

Marvin Knox said:
For every one of these testimonies there is at least another looking at things from the other side of the issue.

But my own testimony will suffice to make the point.

I accepted the Lord at 13 years old. My conversion was as real as a conversion can possibly be.

I struggled for over a year with the the lustful sins that are common to young men entering puberty. Most of them were of the mind only. But as many more were of a physical nature.

I had been taught that my salvation depended on overcoming these sins - much the same as your teaching here.

My life was a living Hell as I sinned and sinned again - each occurrence accompanied by repentance with tears and contrition to get back in the good graces of God. The emotional pain was unbearable.

The time came when I consciously walked away from Christianity rather than live such a life of condemnation.

I soon entered into more and more sin - too graphic to tell about here. I became an agnostic in time. I acted and talked more like an atheist as I railed against Christianity and worked to undermine the faith of believers for the better part of two decades.

Graciously the Lord was faithful to His promises and reigned me in. I became a believer again.

The first thing I did was find out what the scriptures taught about how a person gets saved and how he "stays" saved. I have never wavered from the most basic parts of the doctrine I learned in that exhaustive study.

I found that the truth was a far cry from what I had been taught and, by the way, what you teach.

I have ventured into sin sometimes in the last 4 decades plus. But for the most part I have served faithfully with my life the One to whom I owe my salvation.

I come back to Him each time I do something that isn't pleasing to Him - not out of fear but out of love for Him.

I serve Him because He loves me and has saved me for all eternity. I do not serve Him in order to obtain His love or to get saved or to stay saved.

You've commented in the past that my posts sometimes seem hostile to you. That is true. Not only am I borderline hostile to you - I am sometimes equally hostile to others of your ilk as well.

It is because false teachers like you cost me the prime of my life in the Lord - which I can never get back again.

I hurt not only myself. I hurt a great many other people in those terrible lost years - a great many of them were Christians.

I wish I could undo what was done. But I cannot.

I doubt that this will cause you to leave off your pet project of undermining the faith of believers. But I wish with all my heart that you would repent of teaching your false gospel here in the forum.

I feel that way for two reasons. The first is that I am convinced that you may be causing some weaker brothers and sisters who are reading along to stumble.

The second is that if, perchance, you are saved in spite of your works based "gospel" - you will suffer great loss at the stricter judgment that awaits you as a teacher.

POWerful, indeed! A timely, timely post. Thank you, Brother.

Bible Highlighter · Jan 14, 2016

thatbrian said:
Do you have example of either Jesus instructing us to speak in parables of the apostles doing such?

So the Canaanite woman was able to do something we are not able to do? That doesn't make a whole lot of sense. Also, we are supposed to imitate Christ. Jesus told parables so only his disciples could hear him. This means we can do the same amongst each other. Besides, even if the parables were an exclusive thing Jesus did alone (which is not true), we see a pattern of truth that is repeatable that can in turn be copied. We see Jesus compare something that is true in the real world that we would be familiar which parallels or relates to a spiritual truth.

...

Bible Highlighter · Jan 14, 2016

FreeGrace2 said:
Apparently you're beyond hope. Because the reality of Scripture always trumps any kind of "parable" by any mortal human. But you've clearly indicated your disinterest in Scriptural truth.

But parables are mentioned in Scripture. Parables were used by both our Lord (who is our example spiritually) and by the Canaanite woman. Be honest now, the only reason you are resistant to making a parable of showing how OSAS is good and moral is because we both know that you or anyone else cannot make one.

...

nobdysfool · Jan 14, 2016

Jason0047 said:
I said before that God is perfectly aware of the future and what man does. But that is not the same thing as man making choices that goes contrary to His holiness and goodness, though. God would prefer men not to sin because God is holy and good.

Just making sure you weren't a Molinist.

God does not force men to continue in sin with no chance of being saved because that would make God unrighteous (By doing so).

No one here teaches such a thing. is that what your source on Calvinism claims? They don't know what they're talking about.
Unless God intervenes in a man's life, that man will continue on in sin for one simple reason: he WANTS to!

For what makes God regenerate some and not others? Is it something within them? If so, then how can that be if all men are depraved?

He doesn't choose to save anyone based on something within them, because there is nothing in them that merits salvation. so your point falls flat and fails.

In other words, I see your belief as one having many contradictions....

Jason, you have no clue as to what I believe, really. You have made it clear that you do not understand what you think to speak against. Your source of information about Calvinism and Calvinists is seriously flawed and faulty. It is leading you into ever greater error.

You are sinfully trying to apply your false notions to us, as though they were true. Several have asked you to stop doing that. I am asking you once again to stop it. Do NOT attmept to tell calvinists here what they believe, because you have no correct knowledge about what they believe. Your cluelessness only hurts your cause, and in doing it, you are sinning against the others in this forum. Knock. it. Off!

.

ToBeLoved · Jan 14, 2016

Jason0047 said:
But parables are mentioned in Scripture. Parables were used by both our Lord (who is our example spiritually) and by the Canaanite woman. Be honest now, the only reason you are resistant to making a parable of showing how OSAS is good and moral is because we both know that you or anyone else cannot make one.

...

Jesus never told us to speak in parables.

And none of the Apostles spoke in parables either.

Bible Highlighter · Jan 14, 2016

Albion said:
Jason, you didn't quote me or refer to me, and you said that it was for "the Calvinists here." The last thing I thought when reading that was that your intention was to ask me to compare my own thinking with that website.

In addition, it's not an exposition of Calvinist thinking but, rather, it's an article that's critical of it, so that wouldn't be of much use in defining Calvinist POVs anyway.

I find that I learn the best when my beliefs are challenged or under fire.

...

ToBeLoved · Jan 14, 2016

Jason0047 said:
So the Canaanite woman was able to do something we are not able to do? That doesn't make a whole lot of sense. Also, we are supposed to imitate Christ. Jesus told parables so only his disciples could hear him. This means we can do the same amongst each other. Besides, even if the parables were an exclusive thing Jesus did alone (which is not true), we see a pattern of truth that is repeatable that can in turn be copied. We see Jesus compare something that is true in the real world that we would be familiar which parallels or relates to a spiritual truth.

...

What would be the purpose of us speaking in parables?

Bible Highlighter · Jan 14, 2016

ToBeLoved said:
Jesus never told us to speak in parables.

And none of the Apostles spoke in parables either.

Jesus never told us to breath oxygen, that doesn't mean we don't do so. But again, the Bible says we are to be imitators of Christ and we know there was a spiritual benefit in using parables.

...

Bible Highlighter · Jan 14, 2016

ToBeLoved said:
What would be the purpose of us speaking in parables?

Are you honestly asking because you don't know?

...

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