Logical Problems with Calvinism

[Albion]

It is no different if you tell people there are no consequences to a believer's sin in the after-life. Many have already sinned and many will continue to sin with impunity as a result of such a message (i.e. OSAS).

I don't see anyone arguing that here, however, and it's certainly not inherent in the doctrine of Eternal Security/Perseverance of the Saints.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I don't see anyone arguing that here, however, and it's certainly not inherent in the doctrine of Eternal Security/Perseverance of the Saints.

First, she asked me if OSAS or Eternal Security can lead people into a life style of sin. I have provided testimonies to show that very fact. So it does not matter if people who believe in OSAS here are living in a lifestyle of sin or not. The fact of the matter is that many have done so as a result of OSAS.

Second, (just so that you know): I believe in the Biblical View of "Conditional Salvation" that teaches that a true believer who is saved will naturally bring forth a life full of holiness and fruitful works. Now, do not misunderstand me, works are not done to be saved, but they are merely the evidence that you have been saved when one repents and accepts Jesus Christ as their personal Lord and Savior. If a believer sins, they need to immediately confess that sin and forsake it and continue to walk uprightly with their Lord. If a believer continues to abide in unrepentant sin that leads unto death (lying cheating murder etc.) then they are not saved.

So seeing I hold to the Biblical View of "Conditional Salvation", I am naturally against all forms of OSAS (Once Saved Always Saved). However, that said, I believe that only those who hold to "Conditional Salvation" and "OSAS Lite" are walking in holiness, though. However, I believe all forms of OSAS are unbiblical. Anyways, there are four major types of OSAS (That I discovered).

OSAS Type #1:
Classic OSAS (Once Saved Always Saved) which says you can practice unrepentant sin that leads unto death (Such as lying, murder, hate, fornication, etc.) and yet you can somehow still be saved.

OSAS Type #2:
Mid Range OSAS says that you cannot practice sin otherwise you do not know God. However, abiding in an occasional or small unrepentant sin and then dying in that sin will not necessarily send you to Hell.

OSAS Type #3:
OSAS Rising teaches that a believer will not live in habitual sin and they will only sin on occasion (with them confessing their sin). However, they do not believe they were ever stop sinning in this life time, though (Even though there are many verses that clearly tell them that they can overcome sin if they partake of the Sanctification process with God). This belief allows for a little sin and they will fight strongly against the idea that they will ever be able to stop sinning (even if such sin is done on occasion).

OSAS Type #4:
OSAS Lite teaches that you if you practice or continually abide in unrepentant sin then you were never saved to begin with. Meaning that a true believer is characterized by them living righteously. So falling away from the faith would be impossible (Despite the many verses that talk about such a thing).

Does your view of Eternal Security or OSAS match up with any of the ones above?
Or is your view of Eternal Security different?
If so, please explain.
Thank you.


....

 

[Albion]

I believe in the Biblical View of "Conditional Salvation" that teaches that a true believer who is saved will naturally bring forth a life full of holiness and fruitful works. Now, do not misunderstand me, works are not done to be saved, but they are merely the evidence that you have been saved when one repents and accepts Jesus Christ as their personal Lord and Savior. If a believer sins, they need to immediately confess that sin and forsake it and continue to walk uprightly with their Lord. If a believer continues to abide in unrepentant sin that leads unto death (lying cheating murder etc.) then they are not saved.

So seeing I hold to the Biblical View of "Conditional Salvation", I am naturally against all forms of OSAS (Once Saved Always Saved).

I guess I see that. It's the typical Free Will POV, Protestant version, of course. I'm not persuaded, myself, that God doesn't choose his Elect and that, if we does, he will let them slip away.

However, that said, I believe that only those who hold to "Conditional Salvation" and "OSAS Lite" are walking in holiness. I believe all other forms of OSAS are unbiblical. Anyways, there are three major types of OSAS...OSAS Type #3:
OSAS Lite teaches that you if you practice or continually abide in unrepentant sin then you were never saved to begin with. Meaning that a true believer is characterized by them living righteously. So falling away from the faith would be impossible (Despite the many verses that talk about such a thing).

Does your view of Eternal Security or OSAS match up with any of the ones above?
Or is your view of Eternal Security different?

As I understand it, only that which you call 'OSAS Lite' is actually OSAS, although I wouldn't include the suggestion that if one is among the Elect he will be unfailingly sinless or something like that.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I guess I see that. It's the typical Free Will POV, Protestant version, of course. I'm not persuaded, myself, that God doesn't choose his Elect and that, if we does, he will let them slip away.


As I understand it, only that which you call 'OSAS Lite' is actually OSAS, although I wouldn't include the suggestion that if one is among the Elect he will be unfailingly sinless or something like that.

I have added an update called "OSAS Rising." I believe this version of OSAS may fit your beliefs. Let me know.


...

 

[GillDouglas]

Second, (just so that you know): I believe in the Biblical View of "Conditional Salvation" that teaches that a true believer who is saved will naturally bring forth a life full of holiness and fruitful works. Now, do not misunderstand me, works are not done to be saved, but they are merely the evidence that you have been saved when one repents and accepts Jesus Christ as their personal Lord and Savior. If a believer sins, they need to immediately confess that sin and forsake it and continue to walk uprightly with their Lord. If a believer continues to abide in unrepentant sin that leads unto death (lying cheating murder etc.) then they are not saved.

This is a contradiction. If the condition for salvation is to have done good works, then the works meet the condition for salvation. However, you go on to say that the good works are NOT done in order to be saved, that they are merely the evidence of being saved. So which is it?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

This is a contradiction. If the condition for salvation is to have done good works, then the works meet the condition for salvation. However, you go on to say that the good works are NOT done in order to be saved, that they are merely the evidence of being saved. So which is it?

Not a contradiction. A believer submits to God and then God then does the work thru them.


...

 

[Bible Highlighter]

In fact, speaking of contradictions: Well, I highly encourage Calvinists here to challenge their faith and read thru contradictions that Calvinists have made at this link here:

http://blog.savetheperishing.com/114-contradictions-from-calvinists/



...

 

[GillDouglas]

Not a contradiction. A believer submits to God and then God then does the work thru them.
...

This is where you misunderstand the nature of men. Men do not seek Him in their natural depraved state. The unbeliever must first be made a believer, and then they submit to God.

 

[Albion]

I don't buy the "God actually is the one doing whatever the believer does" kind of theory.

All in all, your perspective, Jason, looks to me to be closest to a Freewill POV with some sort of works righteousness attached.

 

[Albion]

In fact, speaking of contradictions: Well, I highly encourage Calvinists here to challenge their faith and read thru contradictions that Calvinists have made at this link here:

http://blog.savetheperishing.com/114-contradictions-from-calvinists/



...

I really think you have to confront the issues that are famously associated with Calvinism, as opposed to focusing on what some people who are reputed to be Calvinists, or actually are Calvinists but not well attuned to Calvinist theology, do or say.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Well, I made my case with Scripture and there is really nothing more to say.

Well, I refuted your case and showed that your theories of Scripture do not stack up. And yes, there is nothing more to say.

If you are wanting to see something in the Bible that is not specifically there, no verse or words are going to change your mind about that if you are only wanting to see what you desire to see.

Coming from one who requests a "real world example" but meant only a parable, which isn't real world at all, and who rejects actual real world examples from Scripture itself.

I say this because I do not find your belief to be moral or good in any way because I believe OSAS makes for an allowance for sin (whether it be a little bit of sin or a lot of sin) when one can clearly overcome sin by the Sanctification process (According to God's Word).

The error of your view of OSAS is not my problem, only yours. The proper view has been thoroughly explained with Scripture as support for it.

What you do with the truth is your own business.

This is why I want you to illustrate the goodness of OSAS in the form of a parable like the one's Jesus used that does not mention any specific names, or places, etc.

I would like for you to prove to me once and for all that I am really wrong. Are you up for that kind of challenge?...

I've already done that (proved that you are really wrong), and you've already rejected the truth. As you said, there is nothing more to say.

 

[FreeGrace2]

GillDouglas said: ↑
You truly have no understanding of the relationship between God and His children.

Such a statement does not really prove your case in any way. ...

He wasn't trying to prove anything. He was just stating the obvious.

 

[nobdysfool]

To the Calvinist:
Do you believe there are choices that man makes that goes against God's will?...

Do you believe that there are choices that man makes that take God by surprise?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

This is where you misunderstand the nature of men. Men do not seek Him in their natural depraved state. The unbeliever must first be made a believer, and then they submit to God.

So was Cain in a depraved state when God said this to him?

"If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him." (Genesis 4:7).​

Cain was banished because of his sin and he became a vegabond. Cain is listed in Scriptures in a very negative way in the New Testament, as well.


...

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Do you believe that there are choices that man makes that take God by surprise?

I said before that God is perfectly aware of the future and what man does. But that is not the same thing as man making choices that goes contrary to His holiness and goodness, though. God would prefer men not to sin because God is holy and good. God does not force men to continue in sin with no chance of being saved because that would make God unrighteous (By doing so). For what makes God regenerate some and not others? Is it something within them? If so, then how can that be if all men are depraved?

In other words, I see your belief as one having many contradictions.


...

 

[Bible Highlighter]

GillDouglas said: ↑
You truly have no understanding of the relationship between God and His children.

He wasn't trying to prove anything. He was just stating the obvious.

No. That is just silly. Anytime anyone writes here, they are trying to prove their position or view from the Scriptures.


...

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I don't buy the "God actually is the one doing whatever the believer does" kind of theory.

All in all, your perspective, Jason, looks to me to be closest to a Freewill POV with some sort of works righteousness attached.

As I said before, I do not believe that is my righteousness that saves me but it is God working in me that does so. I also believe that if a saint who is honestly trying to overcome sin stumbles, they have God's grace to fall back upon. Again, this is not a license to sin by saying they will forever sin the rest of this life, but this is doen so as to overcome sin by asking God to help pick them back up and to walk righteously from that point on.

But yes; God does move in the believer when they at times do something. How so?

"Jesus answered and said to him, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word, and My Father will love him, and we will come to him and will make a home with him" (John 14:23).

....

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Well, I refuted your case and showed that your theories of Scripture do not stack up. And yes, there is nothing more to say.



Coming from one who requests a "real world example" but meant only a parable, which isn't real world at all, and who rejects actual real world examples from Scripture itself.


The error of your view of OSAS is not my problem, only yours. The proper view has been thoroughly explained with Scripture as support for it.

What you do with the truth is your own business.


I've already done that (proved that you are really wrong), and you've already rejected the truth. As you said, there is nothing more to say.

I will still be waiting on that parable from you when you are serious enough to face your own belief (for what it really is).


...

 

[Albion]

As I said before, I do not believe that is my righteousness that saves me but it is God working in me that does so.

We'd call that "works righteousness," even if you give God the credit for the good work you do. That's presuming that it plays a part in saving you, but when you use the word "righteousness," that's what I think.

But yes; God does move in the believer when they at times do something. How so?

"Jesus answered and said to him, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word, and My Father will love him, and we will come to him and will make a home with him" (John 14:23).

....

Whew. I don't see that that verse at all refers to what we were discussing.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I really think you have to confront the issues that are famously associated with Calvinism, as opposed to focusing on what some people who are reputed to be Calvinists, or actually are Calvinists but not well attuned to Calvinist theology, do or say.

I am not expecting every Calvinistic statement in the article to match up with your viewpoint. The point is that some of those statement more than likely do match up with what you believe, though. The author of the web-page points out contradictions made (if you are willing to look at them). If you do not care to look at such contradictions, then it is very revealing about what you believe. For if someone came up with a website saying there are contradictions to Conditional Salvation, and Man's Sovereignty I would at least give it a look.


....