Logical Problems with Calvinism

nobdysfool · Jan 10, 2016

so, what's the outcome of all of this? Jason considers himself to be sinless, even though we've proven that he isn't. In his world, either one is sinless, or one is in a constant state of continual sin, and therefore not really saved. There is none other than those 2 options, either 100% sinless and therefore saved, or 100% still sinning, and that continually, and therefore not saved at all. That is how he sees it.

The reality is, as it is with all Christians, he is sinless ONLY between sins, how ever far apart they may be, and if he sins, he confesses the sin, asks forgiveness, and is returned to right standing with God. The problem here is that he refuses to understand the meaning of the term "sinless perfection", and misappropriates it to apply to himself, even though he still sins on occasion. If he still sins, he is not sinless, he is a sinner saved by Grace, not having his sins counted against him, for one simple reason that he apparently does not see: by being joined with Christ, the penalty for ALL of his sins has ALREADY BEEN PAID. Confession is for the purpose of restoring fellowship, not restoring salvation!

Since the penalty for sin is death, and since Jesus has already died for those sins, he, by being joined to Christ in His death, burial, and resurrection has been moved BEYOND the penalty for his sins. They are marked "Paid In Full", and there remains no more penalty because God does not require a second penalty for a sin whose penalty has already been paid. Nowhere in the Scriptures does God differentiate between sins done before one is saved, and those done after one is saved. Sin is sin, period.

For every person now living, when Jesus died for their sins, ALL of those sins were yet future to Jesus. He died for sins that hadn't even been committed yet, because the person committing them had not yet been born and wouldn't be for nearly 2000 years! To say that all sins committed before salvation are automatically forgiven, but sins committed after salvation still carry the death penalty unless they are confessed and forsaken, is to make the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ ineffectual, and is saying that God requires and executes double-jeopardy on the one who sins after Salvation. Either ALL of the sins of a person are forgiven when they come to Christ, or none of them are, unless they are specifically confessed in detail and forsaken. Either the Blood of Jesus wipes them all away, or it covers only some of them, and it's up to the person to gain forgiveness for the rest. That makes for a very cruel God.

tulipbee · Jan 10, 2016

FreeGrace2 said:
In reality, you don't have the ability to refute what I wrote. Because everything I posted about Eph 1:4 is true.

And you claim that there isn't time is only an excuse because of the inability to refute it.

Truth cannot be refuted. Only denied, rejected, ignored. But not refuted.

Don't need to refute inability. The bible backs it up. Superman is a made up cartoon.

sdowney717 · Jan 11, 2016

nobdysfool said:
so, what's the outcome of all of this? Jason considers himself to be sinless, even though we've proven that he isn't. In his world, either one is sinless, or one is in a constant state of continual sin, and therefore not really saved. There is none other than those 2 options, either 100% sinless and therefore saved, or 100% still sinning, and that continually, and therefore not saved at all. That is how he sees it.

The reality is, as it is with all Christians, he is sinless ONLY between sins, how ever far apart they may be, and if he sins, he confesses the sin, asks forgiveness, and is returned to right standing with God. The problem here is that he refuses to understand the meaning of the term "sinless perfection", and misappropriates it to apply to himself, even though he still sins on occasion. If he still sins, he is not sinless, he is a sinner saved by Grace, not having his sins counted against him, for one simple reason that he apparently does not see: by being joined with Christ, the penalty for ALL of his sins has ALREADY BEEN PAID. Confession is for the purpose of restoring fellowship, not restoring salvation!

Since the penalty for sin is death, and since Jesus has already died for those sins, he, by being joined to Christ in His death, burial, and resurrection has been moved BEYOND the penalty for his sins. They are marked "Paid In Full", and there remains no more penalty because God does not require a second penalty for a sin whose penalty has already been paid. Nowhere in the Scriptures does God differentiate between sins done before one is saved, and those done after one is saved. Sin is sin, period.

For every person now living, when Jesus died for their sins, ALL of those sins were yet future to Jesus. He died for sins that hadn't even been committed yet, because the person committing them had not yet been born and wouldn't be for nearly 2000 years! To say that all sins committed before salvation are automatically forgiven, but sins committed after salvation still carry the death penalty unless they are confessed and forsaken, is to make the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ ineffectual, and is saying that God requires and executes double-jeopardy on the one who sins after Salvation. Either ALL of the sins of a person are forgiven when they come to Christ, or none of them are, unless they are specifically confessed in detail and forsaken. Either the Blood of Jesus wipes them all away, or it covers only some of them, and it's up to the person to gain forgiveness for the rest. That makes for a very cruel God.

Yes, all who cause division contrary to revealed truth are sinning. And they are agents of Satan.

Romans 16
17 Now I urge you, brethren, note those who cause divisions and offenses, contrary to the doctrine which you learned, and avoid them. 18 For those who are such do not serve our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly, and by smooth words and flattering speech deceive the hearts of the simple. 19 For your obedience has become known to all. Therefore I am glad on your behalf; but I want you to be wise in what is good, and simple concerning evil.
20 And the God of peace will crush Satan under your feet shortly.

The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you. Amen.

Bible Highlighter · Jan 11, 2016

FreeGrace2 said:
But you haven't yet.

Then the clear answer to my question is that you're only sinless when you're between sins. Why didn't you just say so? It really wasn't that hard.

An acoholic is ONLY sober between drunken stupors. But if he continues to drink on occasion, he continues to be an alcoholic. Is this understood?

No, because I believe God will help me to overcome sin for good. It could be today, tomorrow, or next week. I have faith in what the Scriptures say that men of God have ceased from sin. I believe that because it is what the Bible plainly says. As I have pointed out by a real world example: A person is not wrong if they are honestly striving to overcome their sin or addiction and they are on the road to recovery and improving in conquering that problem. Nowhere did I say it was an on and off kind of a thing with no end in sight of conquering their sin. You are saying that. That is what you believe.

No, this is nonsense. That is NOT my view at all. And not even close.

Then make a real world example out of your belief then.

Sinless perfection means no longer sinning. So on your "road to recovery", as long as there is any sin, you are NOT sinless. Only between sins.

I have the hope today that I will cease from sin. So there is no plan to sin again in the future so as to suggest your concept of "on and off" type sinning. Again, that is what you believe. You believe in sinning less and not in stopping from sin. You do not think it is possible. But with God, all things are possible. For Jesus says be ye perfect as the Heavenly Father is perfect.

At least we all know now that you still sin.

I am saying I have not reached the level of perfection of doing all of what Jesus commanded me to do in regards to all of His Commands in the New Testament. There is a lot that he requires of us. The change in a believer's life is not always an overnight process. But as I said before, a believer is not supposed to sin day in and day out those types of sins that lead unto spiritual death, like hating, adultery, and getting drunk, etc. If they do, they can overcome it with God's help. But if you are wondering, there are many days I believe I do not sin. But this again, does not prove your case in any way. As I said before, a believer will be guided into walking more and more into God's holiness and goodness. The true believer is on the road of recovery where they will put away all sin in their life. This is the Sanctification process. Also, my life is not the standard, either. The Word of God is the standard. For again, the whole world was wicked and destroyed for their sinfulness back in the days of Noah.

But are sinless between sins. Like all of the rest of us sinners.

Again, this is a description of what you believe, unless of course you believe you can abide in unrepentant sin and still be saved like others have claimed here.

Bottom line: you're still a sinner,

It is written, who shall lay a charge against God's elect?

just as Paul confesses about himself in 1 Tim 1:15. Note that he used the present tense.

Okay, so basically you are telling me you believe in a sin and still be saved belief or a doctrine of immortality. For if you believe Paul was claiming to be the chief of sinners amongst other believers in the present tense (who was undoubtedly a saved man), then you are teaching Antinomianism (Which is an ignoring of God's Law on some level). However, we know Paul was talking in the past tense. See verse 13 in 1 Timothy chapter 1. He says BEFORE he was a blasphemer, etc. In addition, Paul says we used to be sinners, but we are not that way anymore (Ephesians 2:2-3, Ephesians 4:17-27, Colossians 3:6-7).

...

Bible Highlighter · Jan 11, 2016

nobdysfool said:
so, what's the outcome of all of this? Jason considers himself to be sinless, even though we've proven that he isn't. In his world, either one is sinless, or one is in a constant state of continual sin, and therefore not really saved. There is none other than those 2 options, either 100% sinless and therefore saved, or 100% still sinning, and that continually, and therefore not saved at all. That is how he sees it.

The reality is, as it is with all Christians, he is sinless ONLY between sins, how ever far apart they may be, and if he sins, he confesses the sin, asks forgiveness, and is returned to right standing with God. The problem here is that he refuses to understand the meaning of the term "sinless perfection", and misappropriates it to apply to himself, even though he still sins on occasion. If he still sins, he is not sinless, he is a sinner saved by Grace, not having his sins counted against him, for one simple reason that he apparently does not see: by being joined with Christ, the penalty for ALL of his sins has ALREADY BEEN PAID. Confession is for the purpose of restoring fellowship, not restoring salvation!

Since the penalty for sin is death, and since Jesus has already died for those sins, he, by being joined to Christ in His death, burial, and resurrection has been moved BEYOND the penalty for his sins. They are marked "Paid In Full", and there remains no more penalty because God does not require a second penalty for a sin whose penalty has already been paid. Nowhere in the Scriptures does God differentiate between sins done before one is saved, and those done after one is saved. Sin is sin, period.

For every person now living, when Jesus died for their sins, ALL of those sins were yet future to Jesus. He died for sins that hadn't even been committed yet, because the person committing them had not yet been born and wouldn't be for nearly 2000 years! To say that all sins committed before salvation are automatically forgiven, but sins committed after salvation still carry the death penalty unless they are confessed and forsaken, is to make the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ ineffectual, and is saying that God requires and executes double-jeopardy on the one who sins after Salvation. Either ALL of the sins of a person are forgiven when they come to Christ, or none of them are, unless they are specifically confessed in detail and forsaken. Either the Blood of Jesus wipes them all away, or it covers only some of them, and it's up to the person to gain forgiveness for the rest. That makes for a very cruel God.

My life is not characterized by a life of living in sin day in and day out. There are days I do not sin. For there is a difference in a believer abiding in sin all the time and a believer in stumbling on their road to recovery (Where they will put away sin in their life for good). God's people are supposed to be holy and not sinful. It is madness to suggest otherwise. The Bible says he that commits sin is of the devil (1 John 3:8). The BIble says everyone who does evil hates the light (John 3:20). Also, if a believer sins, he confesses that sin and is forgiven of it and cleansed of all unrighteousness. So past sins that are confessed are erased. This does not mean we have a license to sin as much as we want, though. Confession is supposed to lead us into holiness and God's goodness. Confession is not mindless lip service. For not everyone that says Lord, Lord unto Him will enter the Kingdom of God. Only those who do His will will enter in (See Matthew 7).

....

FreeGrace2 · Jan 11, 2016

I said this:
"In reality, you don't have the ability to refute what I wrote. Because everything I posted about Eph 1:4 is true.

And you claim that there isn't time is only an excuse because of the inability to refute it.

Truth cannot be refuted. Only denied, rejected, ignored. But not refuted."

tulipbee said:
Don't need to refute inability.

That wasn't what I was asking. I was asking if there was one who could and would refute anything I posted about Eph 1:4 and election.

The bible backs it up.

Backs what up?

Superman is a made up cartoon.

Yes, of course. And your point?

Not anything in this post had any relevance to my request to refute whatever can be refuted about my comments about Eph 1:4.

FreeGrace2 · Jan 11, 2016

Jason0047 said:
No, because I believe God will help me to overcome sin for good.

Everyone on this thread believes that. Which has NOTHING to do with the notion of sinless perfection.

It could be today, tomorrow, or next week.

No, sinless perfection will NOT occur until we leave this body of corruption.

I have faith in what the Scriptures say that men of God have ceased from sin.

Such faith is based on a false premise. There are NO verses that teach that anyone has "ceased from sin". The one verse that uses that phrase is about a continual lifestyle of sin, which is far different than occasional sinning.

I believe that because it is what the Bible plainly says. As I have pointed out by a real world example: A person is not wrong if they are honestly striving to overcome their sin or addiction and they are on the road to recovery and improving in conquering that problem. [/QUOT]
Doesn't matter how "honestly striving to overcome their sin", that very phrase acknowledges "THEIR SIN", proving that they HAVEN'T ceased from sin. Thanks for the real world example.

Nowhere did I say it was an on and off kind of a thing with no end in sight of conquering their sin. You are saying that. That is what you believe.

Click to expand...

When did you actually cease from sin?

Then make a real world example out of your belief then.

Click to expand...

I already have. Paul's testimony of his ongoing struggle with his own sin nature in Romans 7.

14 For we know that the Law is spiritual, but I am of flesh, sold into bondage to sin.
15 For what I am doing, I do not understand; for I am not practicing what I would like to do, but I am doing the very thing I hate.
16 But if I do the very thing I do not want to do, I agree with the Law, confessing that the Law is good.
17 So now, no longer am I the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me.
18 For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh; for the willing is present in me, but the doing of the good is not.
19 For the good that I want, I do not do, but I practice the very evil that I do not want.
20 But if I am doing the very thing I do not want, I am no longer the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me.

The bolded words provide the real world example of truth and refute your view of sinless perfection.

So, go ahead and claim that you're spiritual growth is above that of the apostle Paul, considered THE greatest theologian of all time.

I have the hope today that I will cease from sin.

Click to expand...

And this is NOT sinless perfection. Your very statement clearly indicates that you HAVEN'T YET CEASED FROM SIN. You're only hoping to.

So there is no plan to sin again in the future so as to suggest your concept of "on and off" type sinning.

Click to expand...

Seriously? No one has to plan out their sinning. Just keep reading what Paul wrote in Romans 7 until you get it.

Again, that is what you believe. You believe in sinning less and not in stopping from sin.

Click to expand...

I believe the Bible and what Paul wrote. Which is the truth.

You do not think it is possible. But with God, all things are possible.

Click to expand...

That verse does NOT have sinless perfection as context, so please stop abusing the Word of God for your own personal opinions and assumptions. I KNOW sinless perfection is NOT possible because of what Paul wrote.

For Jesus says be ye perfect as the Heavenly Father is perfect.

Click to expand...

Obviously you are totally unaware of what He meant. And need to keep reading what Paul wrote in Romans 7.

I am saying I have not reached the level of perfection of doing all of what Jesus commanded me to do in regards to all of His Commands in the New Testament.

Click to expand...

Of course you haven't. And you never will this side of eternity. Just read what Paul wrote.

There is a lot that he requires of us. The change in a believer's life is not always an overnight process. But as I said before, a believer is not supposed to sin day in and day out those types of sins that lead unto spiritual death, like hating, adultery, and getting drunk, etc.

Click to expand...

Correct, we are not supposed to sin dayin and day out. We are to sin less and less. Which we CAN do by the help of the Holy Spirit.

But at least you've now admitting that you still sin and are FAR from sinless perfection, like all of the rest of us.

If they do, they can overcome it with God's help. But if you are wondering, there are many days I believe I do not sin. But this again, does not prove your case in any way.

Click to expand...

I don't have to prove anything. I've got Paul's own testimony from Romans 7 and I've now got yours here in this post, where you've admitted that your hoping to become sinless. Proving that you ain't there.

As I said before, a believer will be guided into walking more and more into God's holiness and goodness.

Click to expand...

This is called spiritual growth. And by growing spiritually, we will sin less. But never be sinless in this life.

The true believer is on the road of recovery where they will put away all sin in their life.

Click to expand...

Of course the goal is not to sin. But we KNOW from Paul's testimony that we won't achieve perfection.

This is the Sanctification process. Also, my life is not the standard, either. The Word of God is the standard.

Click to expand...

Correct. From Paul's testimony in Romans 7.

Again, this is a description of what you believe, unless of course you believe you can abide in unrepentant sin and still be saved like others have claimed here.

Click to expand...

I believe what the Bible says.

The Bible says that eternal life is a gift of God in Rom 6:23.
The Bible says that the gifts of God are irrevocable in Rom 11:29.
The Bible says that when one believes in Christ they are sealed with the Holy Spirit, which is a promise and guarantee for the day of redemption in Eph 1;13,14, 4:30, 2 Cor 1:22, 5:5.

So you're basically admitting that you don't believe these words of God.

It is written, who shall lay a charge against God's elect?

Click to expand...

How odd, that you'd cite from a passage about eternal security yet reject it.

Okay, so basically you are telling me you believe in a sin and still be saved belief or a doctrine of immortality.

Click to expand...

Since even the apostle Paul, who was HEAD AND SHOULDERS above both of us spiritually, still struggled with sin, and taught eternal security clearly (see above), yes, sinners will be saved.

If one must achieve sinless perfection to be saved, then why in the world did Jesus Christ die for our sins? PLEASE answer this.

For if you believe Paul was claiming to be the chief of sinners amongst other believers in the present tense (who was undoubtedly a saved man), then you are teaching Antinomianism (Which is an ignoring of God's Law on some level).

Click to expand...

Paul himself said that about himself. Did he preach antinomianism? No, of course not.

And you've shown that you have no idea what antinomianism even means. I suggest you do a lot of research.

However, we know Paul was talking in the past tense. See verse 13 in 1 Timothy chapter 1. He says BEFORE he was a blasphemer, etc.

Click to expand...

How about the passage that totally refutes your notions?
1 Tim 1:15 - It is a trustworthy statement, deserving full acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, among whom I am foremost of all.

Paul used the present tense regarding being the foremost sinner of all. Checkmate.

In addition, Paul says we used to be sinners, but we are not that way anymore (Ephesians 2:2-3, Ephesians 4:17-27, Colossians 3:6-7).
...

Click to expand...

Actually, no passage makes that claim. Even Paul himself NEVER claimed to have ceased from sin.

None of the verses you keep citing and quoting mean what you think they mean.

FreeGrace2 · Jan 11, 2016

Jason0047 said:
My life is not characterized by a life of living in sin day in and day out. There are days I do not sin.

There is a HUGE difference between being sinless and sinning less. OK, you now sin less. And that admission PROVES that you AREN'T sinless.

tulipbee · Jan 11, 2016

FreeGrace2 said:
I said this:
"In reality, you don't have the ability to refute what I wrote. Because everything I posted about Eph 1:4 is true.

And you claim that there isn't time is only an excuse because of the inability to refute it.

Truth cannot be refuted. Only denied, rejected, ignored. But not refuted."

That wasn't what I was asking. I was asking if there was one who could and would refute anything I posted about Eph 1:4 and election.

Backs what up?

Yes, of course. And your point?

Not anything in this post had any relevance to my request to refute whatever can be refuted about my comments about Eph 1:4.

You're fun! The less I say, the more you fight. That shows your blindness. All I have to do is one word and you go off adding 1000 more words like Catholics do with traditions running scared thier denomination might die.

Bible Highlighter · Jan 11, 2016

FreeGrace2 said:
There is a HUGE difference between being sinless and sinning less. OK, you now sin less. And that admission PROVES that you AREN'T sinless.

Well, you are ignoring three truths here.

Truth #1. - God's Word is the Standard.
God's Word is the standard of truth regardless if people accept or live out that truth or not. For if you lived during the times of Noah, you could not judge by the majority standard of how people were living because the entire world was wicked and were destroyed for such sinfulness with a global flood. Only Noah and his family were found righteous enough to save.

Truth #2. - The Sanctification of the Believer.
Many of God's people are not super stars overnight. Many of them go thru the Sanctification process so as to purify themselves. For it is written, "And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure" (1 John 3:3). One cannot purify themself if they are always continually abiding in some kind of sin all the time. Purifying oneself is going thru the Sanctification process so as to overcome or rid themselves of sin. If a believer is becoming more holy and righteous day by day, He is on the road to overcoming and conquering sin for good, just as an alcoholic who has set their life on being sober will have less and less problems drinking on ther road to recovery in being sober.

Truth #3. - Sinless Perfectionism
The Bible clearly teaches God's people CAN overcome sin. Christ clearly told people to: "sin no more." If Christ did not mean what he said, then it would be a lie. Also, Jesus said be ye perfect as your Heavenly Father is perfect. Again, if we could never be perfect like the Father, then Jesus would have never said something like this. 1 Peter 4:1 says they that have suffered in the flesh have ceased from sin. Galatians 5:24 says they that are Christ's have crucified the affections and lusts. David said, "Your word have I hid in my heart, that I might not sin against you." (Psalm 119:11). "There has no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted above that you are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that you may be able to bear it." (1 Corinthians 10:13).

But your claim is sort of like this:

For you are perceiving one thing and yet it is actually something else in reality altogether. I say this because men of God who are in the Sanctification process will confess and forsake sin and will in time overcome their sin for good. But you are near sighted and only look at the moment within the present and attack them without taking into consideration that they are becoming more holy day by day on their road to ridding themselves of sin for good with God's help. For the alternative of a believer just accepting the fact that they will forever be enslaved to their sin actually goes against what the Scriptures say. For Jesus says, "he that sins is a slave to sin." Paul says, "sin shall not have dominon over you." John says, "he that commits sin is of the devil." He also says, "everyone who does evil hates the light."

In other words, what you are saying to me is sort of like a man who travels back in time just so as to attack an alcoholic every time he stumbles on occasion on his road to becoming sober. It's like this man is trying to get this alcoholic on something that will no longer matter in the future. For in the present, he is sober free and has no desire to ever drink again. But in the past he struggled hard to overcome his sin. He desired to stop; And he did one day overcome. However, you are saying that it is okay for the alcoholic to continue to keep drinking and never really actually reach sobriety (until they are dead), though.

....

Bible Highlighter · Jan 11, 2016

FreeGrace2 said:
Everyone on this thread believes that. Which has NOTHING to do with the notion of sinless perfection.

So you believe men of God will sin in Heaven? If you believe men of God will stop sinning in Heaven, then you believe in Sinless Perfectionism.

No, sinless perfection will NOT occur until we leave this body of corruption.

Which is an excuse for one to simply remain in their sins and therefore never strive for any kind of perfection or holy living.

Such faith is based on a false premise. There are NO verses that teach that anyone has "ceased from sin".

No, dear sir. You are dead wrong. The Bible clearly tells you point blank there are those who have "ceased from sin."

"Since therefore Christ has suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that has suffered in the flesh has ceased from sin." (1 Peter 4:1). Galatians 5:24 says, "And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts."

The one verse that uses that phrase is about a continual lifestyle of sin, which is far different than occasional sinning.

No. 1 Peter 4:1 does not talk about a continual life style of sin alone. The passage does not say that. If it said that, then it would say this instead.

":...for he that has suffered in the flesh has ceased from a lifestyle of sin"

Or it would have said,

"....for he that has suffered in the flesh has ceased from commiting sin as a way of life."

But the verse does not say that, nor does the context give us any indication that it says this, either. Just read the following verses and it is clear in what it says.

For how many sins did Adam have to commit for man to fall into sin? It only took one.
Do you believe God is a respecter of persons and has changed?

...

FreeGrace2 · Jan 11, 2016

tulipbee said:
You're fun! The less I say, the more you fight. That shows your blindness. All I have to do is one word and you go off adding 1000 more words like Catholics do with traditions running scared thier denomination might die.

OK, still not able to refute anything I said about Eph 1:4. That shows your inability. Not my so-called blindness.

Since I'm not associated with any denomination, what would I be running scared from? Surely not Calvinism.

But these cutesy little posts do show you're unable to refute what I've posted.

If my views on Eph 1:4 were wrong, why can't you refute them?

FreeGrace2 · Jan 11, 2016

Jason0047 said:
Well, you are ignoring three truths here.

Truth #1. - God's Word is the Standard.
God's Word is the standard of truth regardless if people accept or live out that truth or not. For if you lived during the times of Noah, you could not judge by the majority standard of how people were living because the entire world was wicked and were destroyed for such sinfulness with a global flood. Only Noah and his family were found righteous enough to save.

Truth #2. - The Sanctification of the Believer.
Many of God's people are not super stars overnight. Many of them go thru the Sanctification process so as to purify themselves. For it is written, "And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure" (1 John 3:3). One cannot purify themself if they are always continually abiding in some kind of sin all the time. Purifying oneself is going thru the Sanctification process so as to overcome or rid themselves of sin. If a believer is becoming more holy and righteous day by day, He is on the road to overcoming and conquering sin for good, just as an alcoholic who has set their life on being sober will have less and less problems drinking on ther road to recovery in being sober.

Truth #3. - Sinless Perfectionism
The Bible clearly teaches God's people CAN overcome sin. Christ clearly told people to: "sin no more." If Christ did not mean what he said, then it would be a lie. Also, Jesus said be ye perfect as your Heavenly Father is perfect. Again, if we could never be perfect like the Father, then Jesus would have never said something like this. 1 Peter 4:1 says they that have suffered in the flesh have ceased from sin. Galatians 5:24 says they that are Christ's have crucified the affections and lusts. David said, "Your word have I hid in my heart, that I might not sin against you." (Psalm 119:11). "There has no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted above that you are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that you may be able to bear it." (1 Corinthians 10:13).

But your claim is sort of like this:

For you are perceiving one thing and yet it is actually something else in reality altogether. I say this because men of God who are in the Sanctification process will confess and forsake sin and will in time overcome their sin for good. But you are near sighted and only look at the moment within the present and attack them without taking into consideration that they are becoming more holy day by day on their road to ridding themselves of sin for good with God's help. For the alternative of a believer just accepting the fact that they will forever be enslaved to their sin actually goes against what the Scriptures say. For Jesus says, "he that sins is a slave to sin." Paul says, "sin shall not have dominon over you." John says, "he that commits sin is of the devil." He also says, "everyone who does evil hates the light."

In other words, what you are saying to me is sort of like a man who travels back in time just so as to attack an alcoholic every time he stumbles on occasion on his road to becoming sober. It's like this man is trying to get this alcoholic on something that will no longer matter in the future. For in the present, he is sober free and has no desire to ever drink again. But in the past he struggled hard to overcome his sin. He desired to stop; And he did one day overcome. However, you are saying that it is okay for the alcoholic to continue to keep drinking and never really actually reach sobriety (until they are dead), though.....

There's actually no more need to post anything, now that you've admitted that you're only hoping to be sinless one day.

But you don't have to hope for it. When we lose our physical bodies, and transfer to eternity, we'll all be sinless. Forever.

FreeGrace2 · Jan 11, 2016

Jason0047 said:
So you believe men of God will sin in Heaven? If you believe men of God will stop sinning in Heaven, then you believe in Sinless Perfectionism.

Sure. In eternity. Not here on earth in our earthly bodies.

No, dear sir. You are dead wrong. The Bible clearly tells you point blank there are those who have "ceased from sin."

As I already pointed out, you've simply failed to understand the meaning. They have ceased from a lifestyle of sin.

Or Paul was just a real loser then, huh. Is that your view of what he wrote in Romans 7?

"Since therefore Christ has suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that has suffered in the flesh has ceased from sin." (1 Peter 4:1). Galatians 5:24 says, "And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts."

What was your suffering in the flesh? And you've already admitted that you haven't ceased from sin. So what's your problem?

tulipbee · Jan 11, 2016

FreeGrace2 said:
OK, still not able to refute anything I said about Eph 1:4. That shows your inability. Not my so-called blindness.

Since I'm not associated with any denomination, what would I be running scared from? Surely not Calvinism.

But these cutesy little posts do show you're unable to refute what I've posted.

If my views on Eph 1:4 were wrong, why can't you refute them?

I haven't looked that up up but if you say I have ability while total depravity rings true, then we'll be playing ping pong ball but you'll lose the game each time

FreeGrace2 · Jan 11, 2016

tulipbee said:
I haven't looked that up up but if you say I have ability while total depravity rings true, then we'll be playing ping pong ball but you'll lose the game each time

Apparently my post wasn't exactly clear to you. I said you can't refute anything I said about Eph 1:4. Because you haven't. If you could, you would have.

tulipbee · Jan 11, 2016

FreeGrace2 said:
Apparently my post wasn't exactly clear to you. I said you can't refute anything I said about Eph 1:4. Because you haven't. If you could, you would have.

He hath chosen us. Whats the problem?

https://www.monergism.com/calvin-ephesians-14-5

FreeGrace2 · Jan 11, 2016

tulipbee said:
He hath chosen us. Whats the problem?

I never said there was a problem with Eph 1:4. The problem begins with what Calvinists think that means.

As I have aleady shown, the verse actually says that God has chosen believers. Because the "us" in v.4 is defined in v.19 as believers:
"and what is the surpassing greatness of His power toward us who believe."
That's who the "us" are in 1:4. Believers. God chose believers.

Notice that the verse sure doesn't say that God chose who would be believers.

So now, what's the problem?

sdowney717 · Jan 11, 2016

FreeGrace2 said:
I never said there was a problem with Eph 1:4. The problem begins with what Calvinists think that means.

As I have aleady shown, the verse actually says that God has chosen believers. Because the "us" in v.4 is defined in v.19 as believers:
"and what is the surpassing greatness of His power toward us who believe."
That's who the "us" are in 1:4. Believers. God chose believers.

Notice that the verse sure doesn't say that God chose who would be believers.

So now, what's the problem?

Paul lays it out for us in the timeline as God choosing us first, not the other way round.

2 Timothy 1
Here we also read of this in v9
Therefore do not be ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me His prisoner, but share with me in the sufferings for the gospel according to the power of God,
9 who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began,
10 but has now been revealed by the appearing of our Savior Jesus Christ, who has abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel,

Can not get more individual and purposeful than that, WE WERE CHOSEN IN HIM before the foundation of the world in love to be His own special people.

And everyone said Amen! Thanks be to the Lord.

Marvin Knox · Jan 11, 2016

sdowney717 said:
Paul lays it out for us in the timeline as God choosing us first, not the other way round.

2 Timothy 1
Here we also read of this in v9
Therefore do not be ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me His prisoner, but share with me in the sufferings for the gospel according to the power of God,
9 who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began,
10 but has now been revealed by the appearing of our Savior Jesus Christ, who has abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel,

Can not get more individual and purposeful than that, WE WERE CHOSEN IN HIM before the foundation of the world in love to be His own special people.

And everyone said Amen! Thanks be to the Lord.

This silly angle that is being played by FreeGrace2 is ridiculous and has been seen as such by anyone paying attention to his methods for a couple of years now.

It is a circular argument which no one can refute. That's why he uses it again and again.

The statement in the scripture is being addressed to believers. Therefore, so the argument goes, those elected are believers. (Duhh!)

Never mind that the entire point of the scripture is to show that these believers were chosen long before they believed.

The entire truth that the Lord is giving to us in the scriptures is deflected, supposedly, by this absolutely ridiculous twist of words.

I suppose that the perpetrator thinks that the end justifies the means with his silly playing with words. The fact is though that, in the Lord's eyes, winning an argument by duplicitous means is not really winning the argument at all.

The Holy Spirit has told us the truth and these silly word games do not negate that truth for any thinking person having the Holy Spirit to teach him.

And everyone said - .

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