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Logical Problem with Predestination

Albion

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Untrue. Both Calvinist and non-calvinist believe God does the saving.

I don't really see how that is true. If salvation is dependent upon anything we do but can choose not to do, God merely offers salvation--which is quite a different matter.
 
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Rick Otto

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"Time will sort it out" doesn't explain how what I & Albion are saying is untrue, and you don't bother to name the point at which you part with Calvin.

I agree with Calvin on the pointy of soteriology, but part ways with him on sacramentology & ecclesiology especialy in the area of church discipline.

Time might sort you out if you don't sort it out first.
 
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Some would say believing is a work while others say believing isn't a work.
 
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Time was created to keep everything from happening at once like it already happened such as Elects being elected before Birth.
 
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Rev Randy

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I really doubt it matters that much. It is the belief in Christ that matters not whether you're a Calvinist or not. I rarely engage in Calvin threads. They lead nowhere.
My point was simple. Rev. Randy is not a Calvinist and Rev. Randy does not believe he saved himself.
 
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Rick Otto

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quote=Rev Randy;I really doubt it matters that much. It is the belief in Christ that matters not whether you're a Calvinist or not.
If you mean soteriologicaly Calvinist, it matters as much as believing God saves us, or we save ourselves by making intelligent choices.
I rarely engage in Calvin threads. They lead nowhere.
Depends on what you believe about being anywhere means.


My point was simple. Rev. Randy is not a Calvinist and Rev. Randy does not believe he saved himself.
Your point is simple self-deception if Randy thinks Randy had anything decisive to do with his being saved.
 
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Rev Randy

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Being Orthodox I'm not even willing to say I'm saved but have hope I will be saved.
 
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Rick Otto

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Being Orthodox I'm not even willing to say I'm saved but have hope I will be saved.
How sad.
I am saved.
I hope for rewards in heaven, but better to live under a bridge in heaven than in a mansion in hell.

BTW,... if anybody needs a toothpick, I'm done with mine.
 
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seeingeyes

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Hoping you will be saved is like hoping the gospel makes sense.
It does or it doesn't.
You are or you are not.

That depends on what you mean by 'saved'. If 'saved' means 'when I die, I'm going straight to the pearly gates', then, in truth, none of us have any idea whether we are 'saved' or not. I mean, we can place our hope in the promises of God, but then if we are more concerned about our own post-death situation than anything else, then we have missed the gospel completely.

That's why it's better to leave such determinations up to our Judge. If we follow him, laying our lives down for others as he did, keeping our eyes on the Father, as he did, then we end up needing a lot less assurance that we'll 'be OK'. Maybe we won't 'be OK', but our Father will be with us all through that valley. In this life and in whatever comes next.

God bless
 
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