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LOGIC please

And-U-Say

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I wonder. Will MoreJesus be back? There are so many creationists who post here and then run, never to be seen again. Some would say that they run because they are mistreated. I am not so sure. MJ has been treated quite courteously despite his theocratic threat.

What do these people think? Are they startled that their position is not nearly so tenable as they thought? Do they run because they fear that they may learn "too much"? Maybe MJ will be back and address some of this, but I doubt it.
 
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fromdownunder

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I wonder. Will MoreJesus be back? There are so many creationists who post here and then run, never to be seen again. Some would say that they run because they are mistreated. I am not so sure. MJ has been treated quite courteously despite his theocratic threat.

What do these people think? Are they startled that their position is not nearly so tenable as they thought? Do they run because they fear that they may learn "too much"? Maybe MJ will be back and address some of this, but I doubt it.
I suspect that some (this applies specifically to YECs), think that they have discovered, or read Hovind, Ross, Morris and Whitcombe, Woodmarappe, AiG etc. etc., the silver bullet, and come "armed and dangerous" to destroy the evolution myth.

Of course when they discover that what they are telling people is old news, and has been discussed and refuted a gazillion times on a gazillion forums, many of them have nothing left in the chamber, and have to depart.

I am not trying to suggest the the OP was one of these, but the pattern is familiar.

It is more often that those who have their own ideas which are generally not supported by anyone else at all, who hang around for long periods.

Norm
 
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Dr.GH

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I am new to these forums and this subject is one that interests me indeed. Looking
around quickly on these boards, I get the impression that they are indeed "Evolutionist"
dominated. We'll I've done quite a bit of research on the subject myself. Indeed I believe
in creation and this fact alone will get my post shot down and bashed by the people here,
I accept that. Bash away. But before you attack explain something to me.
Most all discussions that are related to faith and science are dominated by science. When a person of faith presents their argument in an "either or" way, they will properly be rebuked.

I will point out just two verses that tell the thoughtful reader that there is no biblical barrier to science:

Psalm 19:1, "The heavens declare the glory of God and the firmament showeth His handiwork."

Psalm 85:11 reads, “Truth springs from the earth; and righteousness looks down from
heaven” (NASB). The Hebrew word translated as "truth," emet, basically means “certainty and dependability.”


There are many major flaws I see with evolution, I could start naming them but I'll
stick with one that is the nail in the coffin for me.
I get to your "flaw" in a momment. But first, you are coming from a position of ignorance. You admit this and then you make bold pronouncements about "coffin nails." The major flaws seen by creationists are nearly always major ignorance on their part.

This fact that every living organism, indeed EVERY CELL for that matter is built
on a highly intricate and advanced system of.. systems (forgive my lack of vocabulary.)
What I mean to say is when you study the make up of a cell, each one is made of
systems.. You take one of these systems away, or in fact just corrupt one, and the cell will
die. Study a cell! It's extremely advanced. To be easier to understand look at any
breathing organism. We are made up of quite a few systems. Cardiovascular, respatory,
muscular, epidural, etc system for examples, if flawed, we die. We need each system in
us AT ONE TIME for us to live. If we're missing one system, the whole organism dies.
It's the same with a cell.
Life is complex. That is indeed a part of the very definition of life. But what is this complexity made from? The fact is that complexity is made from a great deal of "simple." All life is composed of, or dependent on only three things; 1) a boundry that seperates the organism from the rest of the universe, 2) metabolism: a means to transfer electrical charge carried by electrons and protons, and the means to move small molecules, 3) an imperfect means of replication. Interestingly requirements 1 and 2 have closely related solutions in the chemistry of permeable membranes and ionic pores. Our study of the cell began at the extreme of complexity and it is only recently that the more rational approach of discovering the most simple systems has been undertaken. It is fascinating that there are independently functioning cells with as fewer than 400 functioning genes, and these are certainly not the actual minimum. MJ exhorts the poor scientist "Study a cell!" Silly young man, we have spent lifetimes studying the cell, and yet it is only in my lifetime (approximately twice the length of yours) that we had the tools to literally watch one molecule at a time as it does its work within the cell. We will return to this perhaps.

But your next absurdity was to suppose that complex life must have the same sorts of organs as you do. Let's consider salamanders. They come in a modest range of sizes from an inch or so to a few feet in length, but they have a wonderful variety in how they exchange gasses with their environment. Nearly all start with gills that have membranes which pass oxygen and carbon dioxide in water. Some never change, but a large number shed their gills and develop lungs which then exchange oxygen and carbon dioxide in air. But there are a large number that use neither gills nor lungs. They instead exchange gasses in air directly through their skin. So you see, there are many solutions to the simple problem of moving gasses even in very complex animals. You are merely wrong that life must have some fixed mechanism without which it is doomed.

So my question is, if even a cell has to have all it's pieces at once to work, how in
the world could it evolve? It has to pop in place because for it to randomly come about
EVERYTHING about it has to be there at once for it to survive!
The answer is, you are mistaken, not everything has to be the way you think it has to be.

Throughout life we find that there are multiple solutions to the same set of problems, the essential tasks I mentioned earlier. Throughout life there is a range of simple to complex organs, complex cells with components seen in simple cells.
 
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Dr.GH

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And ah mutation. That's what Evolution is supposed to be.. Mutation. Funny thing is, as organisms, there never can be new information added to our make-up. It's impossible. The information can be rearranged, or partially lost... but new information is never added. Why? Because it just doesn't, see it can't exist where it doesn't exist! This is why we didn't evolve from single cell organisms. The information in our genetic makeup has to be there. So yea mutation does occur, but again, it's simply the rearrangement of information, or the loss of.
It is a very easy word to use, "mutation." We learned it in school, and even more likely from a comic book, or the movie "X-Men." Kimball's online textbook of biology has a brief, but excellent discussion of mutation. Anyone who would rather get their facts straight from there are encouraged to do so.

MoreJesus has made the standard creationist claims, and is wrong again. Because argument is so common however, it is worth examining more closely. First, evolution is not merely "mutation." The notion that "mutation" is the be all and end all of evolutionary theory is to ignore, or be ignorant of the basics of the theory. Evolution in a simplified form is "populations decent with modification subjected to natural selection resulting in reproductive isolation" When Darwin proposed his ideas nearly 150 years ago, he had no idea of how "decent with modification" actually operated and the ideas he had were wrong. But, simple observation can show anyone that "descent with modification" is the true nature of the world. Consider your own family; you look a bit like your parents, but not exactly like them. Under most circumstances you share just under 50% of your genes with each parent. You also look more like your siblings than say your cousins and more like your cousins than an unrelated person. But, other than identical twins, nobody shares the identical genes with any other person.

We know today that the mature organism is the result of the interaction of genes and the environment. This is much more complicated than Darwin's idea because the environment (including the history of the individual organism) does in fact directly alter the phenome. So when we view the genome it must be as a set of possibilities which might or might not be ever expressed. We also know that "natural selection" is more complex than thought by Darwin. For example, while the environment shapes an organism, an organism (or population of organisms) is altering the environment. Further, it is recognized today that "natural selection" is a phenomena that effects entire populations acting across generations and is not merely variation in individuals.

The ideas above are expanded and shown with examples in 29+ Evidences for Macroevolution The Scientific Case for Common Descent" by my colleague Dr. Douglas Theobald.

At the beginning of the 19th century the experiments of Gregor Mendel were rediscovered and the science of genetics was born. It was discovered that different kinds of organisms had different numbers and shapes of chromosomes (lit. color+body) and that radiation and/or chemicals could alter them. Subsequent development of an organism with an altered chromosome varied from the normal wild type. These early experiments were rather like making an omelet with only a hammer and a blowtorch and lead to the false notion still promoted by creationists today that "all mutations are harmful." Much of the medical literature on mutations is of course focused on those implicated in disease, just as most well studied bacteria are those that cause diseases. You will have noticed this in Kimball's discussion of mutation. Even today, some scientists inappropriately use the word "mutation" to refer to a noxious change in DNA, and "polymorphism" for the mutations that are silent, or beneficial.

So, what are some common sorts of mutations? The most common, and generally least significant in isolation, is the point mutation or single base substitution. These are typically "silent," that is they do not directly alter the function of the gene, or its product (if any). They can very subtly effect evolutionary change by making later mutations more likely, or by making later mutations more likely to alter gene or gene product function.

But for the purpose of examining MoreJesus's claim about mutation and information, single point mutations are an excellent test case. The link is to Prof. David J.C. MacKay's web page on Information Theory at the world famous Cavendish Laboratory, Cambridge University. I will try to present a very simplified version of information as it applies to genetics. For one of the more important books on this topic, read "Information Theory and Molecular Biology" by Hubert P. Yockey, or his "Information Theory, Evolution, and the Origin of Life."

So, what is information? A key discovery by Claude Shannon was that information could be measured in transmission. That is, any bianary string could be transmitted over any channel and the recieved string could be compared to the original. The change between the two roughly measures the information content of the system.

This has some interesting implications, and is typically misrepresented by creationists.

Lets consider a sequence of letters that represent the nucleic acids;

5' ...AUGGCCUGGACUUCA...3'
which will make the following peptide when subject to Gene Translation: RNA -> Protein

Met-ALA-TrP-ThR-Ser-

If a SP mutation happens to a gamete cell so that the sequence becomes; 5' ...AUGGCUUGGACUUCA...3'

there will be no change in the expressed peptide (see Genes and Gene Expression) because GCC and GCU transcribe the same amino acid, Alanine.

However, the information content of the genetic system has been increased. In more significant mutations, such as gene doubling, the new sequence, 5' ...AUGGCCUGGACUUCA...3'...5' ...AUGGCCUGGACUUCA...3' is obviously an information increase.

A fairly accesable article showing how such mutations not only add genetic information to populations, but inevitably lead to complex systems is "Evolution of biological complexity" Christoph Adami, Charles Ofria, and Travis C. Collier, PNAS | April 25, 2000 | vol. 97 | no. 9 | 4463-4468.
 
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Dr.GH

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Of course does this disprove evolution? Well, if you can think logically about it then it will. But if you choose to be deceived into believing a theory even Darwin himself lost faith in, then hey, your own life. You want to live it how YOU want and not be responsible to a creator. That's why this is such an easy escape. But there is a creator, and one day you WILL stand before him on judgment day.

Just the way it is.

But God paid the penalty of your sin. If you just cling to him he will save you. Don't slap him in the face and say "Ha you didn't make all this, it's all a big accident" because he did make it, and on purpose! A plane has to have a blueprint. Just because monkeys have simular blueprints in their design as humans do, does not mean we evolved from them. It simply shows we have the same creator. But we were made for more than throwing poo.

We were made for God. It's truly awesome. We can have a relationship with him? It's hard to wrap your mind around! You can know the one that made everything you see.
As we have seen, not one claim or argument by MoreJesus can survive even a brief review in the light of facts. Neither is there any "logic" that refutes evolutionary theory, for it is not "logic" that merely substitutes falsehoods for reality and then shouts "I win!" It is childishness.

MoreJesus follows this with the long discredited "Lady Hope" fraud of Darwin's "deathbedconversionandrepudiationofevilevilution." Let's assume for a moment that this popular creationist fraud were actually true. Logically, would Darwin's belief or disbelief determine the truth or validity of evolution? If Darwin's state of belief is so potent, then MoreJesus is in deep trouble, because Darwin didn't believe in Christianity. When looked at logically, I am sure that MoreJesus will be happy to drop this falsehood. I personally do not care one way or the other what Darwin believed, it is what he could demonstrate the matters.

MoreJesus next makes the false claim that I, or any other scientist accepts evolutionary theory so that we might misbehave "... and not be responsible to a creator." I know of no reason at all to think that there must be a creator, and I find no support for the validity of a majority of the Bible (particularly those parts most dear to creationists). And I don't plan on any rape and pillage adventures. This is not due to my advancing age, or to my fear of after death retribution. In fact, I don't have any strong homicidal tendencies- these seem to be near the surface for many Christians as shown by their deep concern that everyone else thinks this way. The simple fact is that even if I was so inclined, my fellow man will lock me away for the rest of my life, if they don't simply beat me to death. But to all those Christian that have only their fear of Hell preventing them from rape and mayhem, I say "Hold on! Hold on to the God! He will save you!" and maybe save your potential victims.

If MoreJesus was "... made for more than throwing poo" he has not demonstrated it here.
 
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Wiccan_Child

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This fact that every living organism, indeed EVERY CELL for that matter is built on a highly intricate and advanced system of.. systems (forgive my lack of vocabulary.) What I mean to say is when you study the make up of a cell, each one is made of systems.. You take one of these systems away, or in fact just corrupt one, and the cell will die. Study a cell! It's extremely advanced. To be easier to understand look at any breathing organism. We are made up of quite a few systems. Cardiovascular, respatory, muscular, epidural, etc system for examples, if flawed, we die. We need each system in us AT ONE TIME for us to live. If we're missing one system, the whole organism dies. It's the same with a cell.
While it is true that most systems in an organism are necessary for that organism to survive, this does not mean that that organism's species has always been dependant on those systems. Some foods may be more nutritious for a species than others, so the local gene pool tends towards mutations that benefit the gathering and digestion of these foods, and over time these preferences become necessities.
My point, is that current dependance on a system does not mean there was always dependance on a system, and no irreducably complex systems have been found.

So my question is, if even a cell has to have all it's pieces at once to work, how in the world could it evolve?
Random mutation creates a new feature, which, if it is beneficial, is adapted upon to the extent of dependance.

It has to pop in place because for it to randomly come about EVERYTHING about it has to be there at once for it to survive!
Not necessarily. The eye began as a patch of photosensitive cells, and evolved into the complex organ we see with today.

Funny thing is, as organisms, there never can be new information added to our make-up. It's impossible.
Nonsense. Point mutation can create a new codon in a genome, thereby increasing 'information'.

The information can be rearranged, or partially lost... but new information is never added. Why? Because it just doesn't, see it can't exist where it doesn't exist!
Ah, so your explanation is simply... 'it just doesn't'. You might want to expand a bit.

This is why we didn't evolve from single cell organisms. The information in our genetic makeup has to be there. So yea mutation does occur, but again, it's simply the rearrangement of information, or the loss of.
Nonsense.

Of course does this disprove evolution? Well, if you can think logically about it then it will.
I must admit, you have demonstrated more logical thinking than pretty much all Creationists here; you start with a premise (no new information can be generated by mutation) and work to your conclusions from there. Unfortunately, you have not justified your initial assumption.

But if you choose to be deceived into believing a theory even Darwin himself lost faith in, then hey, your own life.
1) Darwin did not lose faith in his own theory. This is pure unsubstantiated slander.
2) Even if Darwin refuted his own theory, what does it matter?

You want to live it how YOU want and not be responsible to a creator.
Indeed. This 'creator' has given me no evidence that it exists, so why should I assume otherwise?

But there is a creator,
Because you say so?

and one day you WILL stand before him on judgment day.
Highly unlikely. You automatically assume it is the god of the Christians?

Just the way it is.:)
Cute.

But God paid the penalty of your sin.
I have not sinned, and nor have I asked your deity to pay for any sin. Take your piety elsewhere.

Don't slap him in the face and say "Ha you didn't make all this, it's all a big accident" because he did make it, and on purpose!
Why not? Your god has given us no logical alternative, assuming he created the evidence.

Just because monkeys have simular blueprints in their design as humans do, does not mean we evolved from them.
Of course not. The evidence for a common ancestry is a tad more extensive than 'Oh, look, we have similar DNA'.

It simply shows we have the same creator.
Assuming, of course, that there was a creator. You have yet to demonstrate this.

But we were made for more than throwing poo. We were made for God.
On the contrary, our entire biology yearns to keep us alive to reproduce. That is all.

This is just my view on things. Consider it.
Unfortunately, your views are identicle to those of other Christian Creationists, and these views have been refuted countless times.
 
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