Logic or Lunatic - Fairness or Un-reasonable - Right or Wrong -Defend or Lay Down and

ContraMundum said:

You have no idea what you're talking about. Converted Jews can and do become citizens of Israel. Likewise, Jews of many racial backgrounds inhabit Israel and have the right of return, including European, African and Asian. Not only that, Jews of many belief backgrounds inhabit Israel too- not just observant ones. Even anti-Zionist Jews can live in Israel.

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However, Christian (but not Atheist) Jews are denied the Right of Return because the Israeli government is as anti-Christ as it is racist. But, that's just as well, the racial supremacist Israeli government has no way of really knowing who is racially a Jew or not. So, the whole zionist restoration of Israel is just a racist delusion. Most Jews in Israel are no more Jewish than I am.

In biblical times, Jews were expected to support their claim to being racial Jews with the presentation of genealogy records, not just to mommy-the-convert, but to Abraham.

Poke said:

However, Christian (but not Atheist) Jews are denied the Right of Return because the Israeli government is as anti-Christ as it is racist. But, that's just as well, the racial supremacist Israeli government has no way of really knowing who is racially a Jew or not. So, the whole zionist restoration of Israel is just a racist delusion. Most Jews in Israel are no more Jewish than I am.

In biblical times, Jews were expected to support their claim to being racial Jews with the presentation of genealogy records, not just to mommy-the-convert, but to Abraham.

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My wife has some online friends who live in Israel. And you are right, those Israelis are so racist its unreal. Her friends are Muslim so the racist Jews would only allow them to be police officers. They wouldn't let them be fry cooks or run the 7-11. They forced them to be cops.

ContraMundum said:

You have no idea what you're talking about. Converted Jews can and do become citizens of Israel. Likewise, Jews of many racial backgrounds inhabit Israel and have the right of return, including European, African and Asian. Not only that, Jews of many belief backgrounds inhabit Israel too- not just observant ones. Even anti-Zionist Jews can live in Israel. This is what Jews from all walks and regions really look like- http://www.zionozeri.com/main.html - hardly a racial hegemony.

You really need to heed the words of this little Wiki article says of the "Protocols... of Zion" : "Numerous independent investigations have repeatedly proven it to be a hoax; most notably, a series of articles printed in The Times of London in 1921 revealed that much of the material in the Protocols was plagiarized from earlier political satire that did not have an anti-Semitic theme."

Read the whole thing and get a decent education on the matter- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Protocols_of_the_Elders_of_Zion

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What do the "protocols" have to with with it? What does a satire that may be used as disinformation do to discredit it? Possibly you never played a game of chess? I have played much of my life and if I accepted what was placed in front of me I would have had little success. There are postures, fakes, confusions, fients, distractions, threats, illusions and lastly sound logical combinations. If you choose to investigate, you must look at the results and then hypothosise. The protocols may very well be politcal theory in the form of satire. It may be implimented nontheless. Marxism was but a theory. Following Motke's humiliation of Louis Napoleon it was implimented firstly under the French Commune, in 1870. It quickly unraveled . Then we ended up with the Bolsheviks which implinted many devices found in the Protocols. I may satire Marxism all the days of my life but this cast no shadow upon the realities of its execution. All I need do now is satire a Pax Americana movemnet about the invasion of Cuba. Then actually invade Cuba and point out that none of it can be true because satire proceeded it. In simple games of chess I am far more devious than that!

ContraMundum said:

You have no idea what you're talking about. Converted Jews can and do become citizens of Israel. Likewise, Jews of many racial backgrounds inhabit Israel and have the right of return, including European, African and Asian. Not only that, Jews of many belief backgrounds inhabit Israel too- not just observant ones. Even anti-Zionist Jews can live in Israel. This is what Jews from all walks and regions really look like- http://www.zionozeri.com/main.html - hardly a racial hegemony.

You really need to heed the words of this little Wiki article says of the "Protocols... of Zion" : "Numerous independent investigations have repeatedly proven it to be a hoax; most notably, a series of articles printed in The Times of London in 1921 revealed that much of the material in the Protocols was plagiarized from earlier political satire that did not have an anti-Semitic theme."

Read the whole thing and get a decent education on the matter- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Protocols_of_the_Elders_of_Zion

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I guess you just don't know about the racism in Israel **shrug**.

Racism in Israel- big deal. I've been all over the world and seen racism. It's not a point that has any bearing on this topic at all. For every racist in Israel there's more than enough people who are not racist.

Anyway- now that this thread has become truly anti-semitic (by calling Jews racists and vilifying their claim to a genuine heritage), perhaps it's time you Christians repent and stop trying to hate Jews and their right to live in peace.I don't consider this slander to be either informed, enlightened or honest. You've obviously lost the debate, so now you've turned to baseless opinions. You all really need to get right with the Creator.

Poke said:

However, Christian (but not Atheist) Jews are denied the Right of Return because the Israeli government is as anti-Christ as it is racist.

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Not quite true. There have been Jewish Christians granted the right of return and there are many Messianic congregations in Israel to this day- "google" it, wise guy.

But, that's just as well, the racial supremacist Israeli government has no way of really knowing who is racially a Jew or not. So, the whole zionist restoration of Israel is just a racist delusion. Most Jews in Israel are no more Jewish than I am.

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Well, it looks like once again you find yourself in a logical pickle. Considering that Jews come from every conceivable racial background, and Israel has a large Arab populace, how do you reconsile your comments with that? How can a state be "racist" when its population is diverse and its immigrants are of all different races?If you had done some research (outside of some pansy devil leftist rag) you might have found that the State of Israel has defined "who is a Jew" for the purposes of immigration only- they are not interested in someone's genetic pedigree because *neither is God*.You make the claim that....

In biblical times, Jews were expected to support their claim to being racial Jews with the presentation of genealogy records, not just to mommy-the-convert, but to Abraham.

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There's a problem with your "analysis" here- the Book of Ruth. You see, if "mommy-the-convert" is a convert then she's a Jew- according to the Bible. There is no need for a Jew to be genetically Jewish in order to be Jewish.

Now, today, if one wants to get a free relocation to Israel or a free birthright trip then one has to do the exact same thing you think the Jews did back then- prove your claim to be Jewish. The means of doing that are different than they were then, that's all. However, if you want to pay your own way there then you don't have to prove anything- you just are treated like any other immigrant to any other state on planet Earth. It might be very hard for you to immigrate, but then again, look how hard it is to immigrate to Australia or the US or Norway if you are from a developed country, as compared to a thrid world one. Racist I suppose, by your logic?

I think you single out Israel because you are the bigot here, not us.

gwynedd1 said:

I guess you just don't know about the racism in Israel **shrug**.

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Well, as I touched on above this is a silly, sour and shallow point.I have seen racism in every country I have been to- and I've been to a lot.

Let me help you think outside of your anti-semite box for a second, and show you how poor your logic is and perhaps help you see your own bias.The worst racism I have faced in my life directed at me was Sth Korea. Man, let me tell you, those particular Koreans really had a dig at us "Westerners" They made fun of our looks, made snide, racist remarks and spat on our feet.

Now, knowing about the racism in Sth Korea, if Nth Korea were to launch an attack tomorrow in an attempt to wipe the South off the map and make "one" Korea, under the despotic reign of the Kimist Juche theory, would you back up Kim or the Sth? Whose side would you take? Logically, I would assume you would take the side of Mr. Kim Jong Il, because of the racism you *heard* about in S. Korea.Silly, eh?

The point is: racists exist in every country, and we should choose which side we want to take in any given conflict based on other matters, or the sum of many at least.

In the early and still dark hour of 4am, I found myself staring at the ceiling from my bed whispering, "Even though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil." I could feel the gentle and mild breeze filtering in through my open window and the coolness of the morning allowed me to wake up gradually. It's almost as if I already knew that this day would change me forever. As if I already knew I would be walking through the valley of the shadow of death where a force of evil would not only be felt but seen. Several more sections of scripture came to mind and I spoke them out loud as I pulled myself from bed at 4:30am. I was ready. I said out loud to my still-asleep apartment, "Bring it on!"

As I collected things for my backpack, I dismissed verbally any traces of fear that tried to enter my mind. I would not allow myself to fear, I would not allow myself to distort what God had in store. I remember telling myself, "Erin, you must be crazy to go to such a place in the middle of a war!" And I thought to myself that there must be reasons why I would do this. Of course, one reason is simply the fact that I don't want to speak of supporting Israel in the war, I want to support them with my actions. I could talk all day of how much I love and support God's Chosen People, but if I don't meet them in their time of need, my words would be empty. I also felt that God was teaching me to trust Him in new ways by stepping out even further. I recall reading about when Peter stepped out of the boat in the middle of the storm. Some criticize him for starting to sink... at least he got out of the boat. Everyone else remained seated and afraid. I also felt that this was only the first step of what will be many opportunities to assist in times of war. This was a test for me to see if I could handle the difficulty! Finally, I was convinced that this would help YOU grow in your faith. I thought of all of you in the midst of this adventure. I believe that it's important that God will motivate YOU to trust Him in new ways and also let go of "logical faith" and step into supernatural, zealous and unquenchable faith! Faith that can move mountains. Faith that requires you to do more.

I hopped on the 5:45am bus into central Jerusalem and called mom to talk for awhile, knowing that it was seven hours earlier there. We passed the time until I arrived at CFI to meet three other fellow volunteers. We took a van and departed at 6:30am for our drive to the north. As we approached the Galilee area about two hours later, we could sense in our spirits that we were approaching the beginning of the rocket/missile zone. There was a thickness in the air and it was very, very quiet. The streets were empty with the exception of military vehicles. We drove to the actual Sea and decided to get some drinks before we completed our drive further to the north. A beloved Kibbutz called Ein Gev (the kibbutz I stayed at the first two times I visited Israel) had a coffee shop so we stopped. we were the only car in the parking lot but we thought we'd try. We climbed out of the van and as I stretched, I heard the rumble of thunder in the distance. It took a moment for it to register that this was not thunder. They were actually rockets that were being launched by Hizbollah into Israel. It sounded like thunder, yet unlike thunder that is above and around you, this thunder came from beneath our feet. I could feel it; we all could feel it. The windows of the coffee shop rattled and we realized that everything was closed. We saw a few men sitting outside on plastic chairs, workers on the kibbutz, and they told us of a place we could go to grab coffee. We thanked them and got back in the car, the rumbling hadn't stopped since the moment we had arrived. And we still had an hour's drive further north!

We stopped at the one remaining vendor and grabbed some drinks before starting our drive and we heard the constant rumbling continue. Somewhere, rockets were falling and falling in mass amounts. I tried to count and lost track. All the while, I had no fear, no anxiety or nervousness. I was so ready to reach the base and meet the soldiers!

Our continued drive north was full of interesting sights and sounds. The further north we went, the louder the rockets and missiles became and the presence of military thickened. We were driving down winding "country" roads with Golan Heights surrounding us and miles of endless rolling hills full of rocks and scattered trees and old landmines from wars past. I looked out the window to my left and saw a giant IDF tank waiting in position with three soldiers peering out the top opening. To my right I saw fifty soldiers in full gear hiking through the brush and practicing maneuvers. A little further up the road I saw thirty more soldiers practicing shooting targets. I smiled to myself as I realized that I was entering the actual warzone. These soldiers were gearing up, practicing maneuvers and about to go into Lebanon! All the while, we still heard the rockets falling and an occasional siren.

We completed our journey as we reached our destination (undisclosed location). I eagerly jumped out of the van after we parked and was anxious to get to work and meet the soldiers! We walked into the "base" and were greeted by a kind religious Jewish woman who would host us and show us what to do. As she led us through the base, I must have seen a hundred soldiers sitting on the ground talking, napping, playing backgammon and smoking cigarettes! I saw army backpacks lined up in rows, rows of guns and ammo, extra army rations and tons of gear covering the ground! The soldiers looked up at us curiously, not quite sure who we were and why we were there at such a time!

We were taken to the mess hall where we had some tea and coffee (as is Israeli custom to serve drinks at any given opportunity, even in the midst of war!) and said, "We are here to work, so put us to it!" We cleaned the entire mess hall, bathrooms and kitchen with a handful of curious Israeli soldiers. Some of them watched us a while before their curiosity got the better of them and they asked a million questions; Where are you from, why are you here, do you like doing this, are you crazy, etc. I smiled and answered their questions and then fired some questions back. Before long, we were all talking freely and sharing our thoughts on Israel and the war.

As I was mopping a portion of the floor, a tall Israeli Soldier, probably my age, came in and stood near me quietly. I looked up and he said, "Thank you... thank you so much. Everyone else in the world hates us. But here you are, willing to risk your lives just to clean for us and serve us. He was so emotional and I told him, "I love all of you. I love Israel. And I will risk my life just so you know that I am on Israel's side, because that's the side God is on." He was deeply moved and he slowly walked back outside.

At that moment, a siren sounded, loud and abrupt. We were told to evacuate to the bomb shelter, which happened to be a Synagogue. I remember being shown where to go as I heard the very near "Thunk.... BOOM" of the falling rockets all around us. I pushed open the door to find at least fifty faces of Israeli soldiers staring up at me. My eyes grew wide and so did theirs! It's as if we were all saying, "What are YOU doing here!" I sat down amongst them and we all began to talk to the different soldiers. In the hour we were in the shelter before we we heard the all clear, I learned so much about these Special Operations Israeli Reservists that had been called up three days ago. This was their last stop before going into Lebanon. All of them were mostly my age or a little older. I could relate to them and where they were at in life... just getting started, just forming their families, careers and interests.

As the rockets fell, the time passed and the soldiers started to confide in us. I truly sensed that they needed someone they could talk to about what was on their hearts without the macho ism of the other guys. One soldier who is a detective by profession, also a really tough looking guy, told us about his cat and dog and that he hopes they are being taken care of. One soldier, a tennis instructor by profession, told us how he just got married one month ago. His eyes said it all. He was worried for his new bride. One man sat next to me, a security guard at a factory, and a cook by hobby, and we named our favorite Israeli foods! One soldier said out loud though not to anyone specific, "Why do they hate us? We just want to live in peace! Why must they seek our destruction! We didn't start this war." I answered and said, "They do this because they were taught to hate you instead of love you for being God's Chosen People." He nodded silently as he pondered the answer he already knew. I saw the human side, the inside of soldiers. All of them admitted they wanted to be there to defend Israel, even though there was great sacrifice involved. I allowed them to confide one by one as I sat and listened, related and prayed inside my mind.

The all clear signal sounded and lunch was soon to be served! We cleared out of the shelter that contained scattered plastic chairs, a few flipped-through Psalm books and some blankets. I think that picture will remain ingrained into my memory... the day I shared the shelter with soldiers in the war.

We helped serve lunch to the 200 soldiers and got to sit among them to eat with them. One man I sat next to was a husband and father. He had three little girls. He told me all about them and how they call him all the time even when "Ima" (mommy) isn't looking! They want to know if their "Abba" is ok while he fights the bad guys!!! I held back my tears and looked down at my paper plate as I struggled to contain my emotions.

After lunch, the soldiers scattered for some free time until they departed to go on maneuvers. We stayed behind and cleaned up and gathered supplies to clean their barracks... we wanted to bless the soldiers! As soon as we got what we needed, the sirens went off again! I had to go grab my belongings while everyone else rushed to the shelter. I finally made it and we all sat there for almost two hours this time as another barrage of rockets fell. This time, we only had a few soldiers with us because a troop had just left to go on maneuvers. As the rockets fell, I thought about whether they were falling on peoples' homes, businesses... and how many people were being hurt. I prayed. I prayed that the enemy would be destroyed!!! That God would continue to fight for His People, His Israel!!!

Our conversations got deeper in those two hours. The few remaining soldiers confided even more. We discussed politics, discussed beliefs, discussed everything. How amazing it is that this tiny American Blonde girl from Florida finally found a place she could fit in. In the midst of a war, in a bomb shelter, with Israeli soldiers. There was nothing we disagreed on. My search for "belonging" has only been found in Israel.

After the all clear siren sounded, we headed out and attempted to clean the barracks! We mopped floors and wiped surfaces and cleaned bathrooms. I told one soldier, 'I know your secret! You all stay orderly at home and then wait to cut loose when you get called into reserves!" He laughed loudly. As we cleaned different barracks, some of the soldiers remaining would set out fruit and ask us to join them. We ate with them and talked some more and even prayed over a few of them.

Countless soldiers throughout the time we were there took the time to personally thank us. I told them it was an honor to serve those who defend Israel. I told them to remember that I am cheering them on every time they hear a negative biased report from the media. I told them I love them each, thanked them for their service and told them to wipe out the enemy!!!

By now it was late afternoon and it was time to head home. Several of the soldiers walked with us to say goodbye. I looked at them, truly saw them, and burned their faces into my memory. I prayed that they would be protected. I prayed that God would spare them from the ferocious enemy that was rumbling in the distance.

I sat in silence the entire drive home. I calmly walked to my bus stop as it was very late and then walked in the cool evening breeze to my apartment. Not far away, three hours north, my soldiers were beginning their maneuvers into Lebanon. A tennis instructor, a detective, a security guard, a newlywed, a daddy and countless other men were taking their weapons and walking into hostile territory. Side by side, these young men were sacrificing everything they were to defend this tiny plot of land that is surrounded by enemies.

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This CF member has been a volunteer in Israel for a year now
read her journey as it has soooo much history in it from the last 12 months

http://www.christianforums.com/t189...a-certain-volunteer-we-all-love-reloaded.html

ContraMundum said:

Well, as I touched on above this is a silly, sour and shallow point.I have seen racism in every country I have been to- and I've been to a lot.

Let me help you think outside of your anti-semite box for a second, and show you how poor your logic is and perhaps help you see your own bias.The worst racism I have faced in my life directed at me was Sth Korea. Man, let me tell you, those particular Koreans really had a dig at us "Westerners" They made fun of our looks, made snide, racist remarks and spat on our feet.

Now, knowing about the racism in Sth Korea, if Nth Korea were to launch an attack tomorrow in an attempt to wipe the South off the map and make "one" Korea, under the despotic reign of the Kimist Juche theory, would you back up Kim or the Sth? Whose side would you take? Logically, I would assume you would take the side of Mr. Kim Jong Il, because of the racism you *heard* about in S. Korea.Silly, eh?

The point is: racists exist in every country, and we should choose which side we want to take in any given conflict based on other matters, or the sum of many at least.

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It is the use of the word anti-Semtic that is shallow and ridiculus. Please display the remark or quote to prove it or cease and desist.


I am against Zionism and I have made that perfectly clear.

He is a Jew

http://www.geocities.com/schossen/rachel.htm
They are Jews

http://www.jewsagainstzionism.com/

I support their position. Zionism is a racist concept. If you support it then you are the racist. It is an apartied/racist state. Korea has a lot of Koreans in it.

Here is the law of return.
http://www.lectlaw.com/files/int16.htm
4B. For the purposes of this Law, "Jew" means a person who was born of a
Jewish mother or has become converted to Judaism and who is not a member
of another religion.
A non-proselytizing faith at that.

What are God's people then? Its not a race? Then I can convert to a Jew and then go back to Chistianity and now I am God's choosen? No? Then its a racist state.

1 Cor 1

22] For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:
[23] But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;
[24] But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.

This is not God's Isreal.

What do you think this is all about?

Rev 13

[16] And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:
[17] And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.
[18] Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.

Did John forget to mention Israel is exempt?

I think there is a global power that controls the nations through finance. That sound crazy right? Unless, that is ,you are a Christian that reads the bible and looks at world events.


"There is but one power in Europe and that is Rothschild."
19th century French commentator [SIZE=-2]1[/SIZE]

http://www.xat.org/xat/moneyhistory.html

rev 17

[15] And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the harlot sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues.
[16] And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the harlot, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire.
[17] For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled.
[18] And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.

"When a government is dependent upon bankers for money, they and not the leaders of the government control the situation, since the hand that gives is above the hand that takes... Money has no motherland; financiers are without patriotism and without decency; their sole object is gain."
Napoleon Bonaparte, 1815

For both sides of a war to be loaned money from the same privately owned Central Bank is not unusual. Nothing generates debt like war. A Nation will borrow any amount to win. So naturally if the loser is kept going to the last straw in a vain hope of winning, then the more resources will be used up by the winning side before their victory is obtained more resources used, more loans taken out, more money made by the bankers; and even more amazing, the loans are usually given on condition that the victor pays the debts left by the loser.

Rev 18

23] And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the great men of the earth; for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived.
[24] And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth.


Banking started in Babylon. The Talmud and Kabala is from Babylon. Banking, contrary to public belief is not a store of wealth with our current system. Fractional reserves and paper money creation is a system of fraud.

http://hammorabi.blogspot.com/The Cradle of Civilization/The Cradle of Civilization.html

Based upon Zech 5 and rev 17 and 18 Babylon is the source of all evil.

Kabbalistic Jews who learned their craft in Babylon and have the seal of Soloman, an occultic symbol on their coat of arms, founded this state. And on the flag of the state they founded Israel. There is nothing Jewish about it. Quite possibly the star in Amos 5?


http://www.paganspath.com/magik/solomon.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balfour_Declaration,_1917

25] Have ye offered unto me sacrifices and offerings in the wilderness forty years, O house of Israel?
[26] But ye have borne the tabernacle of your Moloch and Chiun your images, the star of your god, which ye made to yourselves.
[27] Therefore will I cause you to go into captivity beyond Damascus, saith the LORD, whose name is The God of hosts.

GordonSlocum said:

God Bless Israel. Pray for the Piece of Jerusalem.

Gordon

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Which piece?
Shalom!

ContraMundum said:

Racism in Israel- big deal. I've been all over the world and seen racism. It's not a point that has any bearing on this topic at all. For every racist in Israel there's more than enough people who are not racist.

Anyway- now that this thread has become truly anti-semitic (by calling Jews racists and vilifying their claim to a genuine heritage), perhaps it's time you Christians repent and stop trying to hate Jews and their right to live in peace.I don't consider this slander to be either informed, enlightened or honest. You've obviously lost the debate, so now you've turned to baseless opinions. You all really need to get right with the Creator.

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There are racists in every country. You are not listening. Since South Africa is no longer apartied, that leaves Israel as the only apartied state in the world. Not so odd since Rothschild funding was behind Cecil Rhodes and the DeBeers cartel. They were of the same source. South Africa also introduced the concentration camps that were found in Bolshevik Russia. This too is no suprise as Milner, Schiff, both Rothschild, agents founded that revolution.

http://www.watch.pair.com/roundtable.html

The North American round table is the CFR.

Both apartied states were conceived by the same minds.

gwynedd1 said:

It is the use of the word anti-Semtic that is shallow and ridiculus. Please display the remark or quote to prove it or cease and desist.


I am against Zionism and I have made that perfectly clear.

He is a Jew

http://www.geocities.com/schossen/rachel.htm
They are Jews

http://www.jewsagainstzionism.com/

I support their position. Zionism is a racist concept. If you support it then you are the racist. It is an apartied/racist state. Korea has a lot of Koreans in it.

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Oh brother. So, you agree with the Satmars and other Hasidim when it suits you and hate them when it doesn't. Typical.

Kabbalistic Jews who learned their craft in Babylon and have the seal of Soloman, an occultic symbol on their coat of arms, founded this state. And on the flag of the state they founded Israel. There is nothing Jewish about it. Quite possibly the star in Amos 5?


http://www.paganspath.com/magik/solomon.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balfour_Declaration,_1917

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OK...pagan resources for facts about Judaism? Do you actually know anything about Kabbalah? There's two kinds- Madonna's pagan version and orthodox Judaism's, and they're nothing alike.

Hel-lo? Anyone home?

NOTE to gwynedd: What makes you think this is really about Zionism? Blaming Zionism is a smoke-screen for the true agenda. The Jews have always been persecuted, even in countries where they submitted to the government. This didn't start with Zionism, as the position you pretend to hold states. This is about anti-semitism, anti-westernism, pure and simple. It's about Islamic jihadists, and hyper-religious theocrats who want to destroy your way of life and establish theirs in your country. It's about Satan wanting to prove God wrong by destroying God's people. It's in the Bible. It's political and it's religious, and it's coming to a town near you unless you take the right side now.

Every time someone plays the "it's only Zionism I'm against" card they are supporting agenda of Jihad and Satan, although they often don't realise it. A decent understanding of political forces at work shows that those opposed to the West and those opposed to Jews, Christians and social and liberal democracy always have to use "Zionism" as an excuse to push their own agenda. By forcing Jewish people out of Israel or slaughtering them they are in effect knocking down another domino in their quest for an Islamic Empire- the Jews are in the way- and so is God, who opposes Satan's false phophet and his man-made religion of death and oppression. If you like Islam, be anti-Zionist. If you hate it, drop the stupid name-it-and-blame-it-on-the-Jews game and get on the side of freedom.

Who's side are you on? Are you on the side of those who want Islamic world dominance? If so, your buddies just tried to bomb ten planes full of people who do them no harm. If you are on the side against Islamic imperialism, then your buddies are the ones trying to stop Hezbollah.

ContraMundum said:

Oh brother. So, you agree with the Satmars and other Hasidim when it suits you and hate them when it doesn't. Typical.



OK...pagan resources for facts about Judaism? Do you actually know anything about Kabbalah? There's two kinds- Madonna's pagan version and orthodox Judaism's, and they're nothing alike.

Hel-lo? Anyone home?

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Are you defending the Kabbalah? The Zohar etc?

NOTE to gwynedd: What makes you think this is really about Zionism? Blaming Zionism is a smoke-screen for the true agenda. The Jews have always been persecuted, even in countries where they submitted to the government. This didn't start with Zionism, as the position you pretend to hold states. This is about anti-semitism, anti-westernism, pure and simple. It's about Islamic jihadists, and hyper-religious theocrats who want to destroy your way of life and establish theirs in your country. It's about Satan wanting to prove God wrong by destroying God's people. It's in the Bible. It's political and it's religious, and it's coming to a town near you unless you take the right side now.

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Is Satan is so obvious when he does his work? He would never do it from within Judaism?
Rev 2
[9] I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.


Jews have also persecuted. They were well represented in the Bolshevicks, slave trade, etc. Everyone has criminals. They have acted wickedly many times. Its in the bible. Do you want me to show it again in the 100s of places where God judges Israel? So I ask is this generation's Jacob/Israel in God or not? If they do not accept Jesus then they are NOT. There is no ifs ,ands or buts about it, no Christ, no God. I am not trying to single out Jews , it is Zionist Christians that single out Jews and think they can do no wrong. This means they can murder people and have charges dismissed by Zionist Christians. Judeo-Christian is a nonsense word.

Every time someone plays the "it's only Zionism I'm against" card they are supporting agenda of Jihad and Satan, although they often don't realise it.

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Yep everytime. The facts do not matter. Right?

A decent understanding of political forces at work shows that those opposed to the West and those opposed to Jews, Christians and social and liberal democracy always have to use "Zionism" as an excuse to push their own agenda. By forcing Jewish people out of Israel or slaughtering them they are in effect knocking down another domino in their quest for an Islamic Empire- the Jews are in the way- and so is God, who opposes Satan's false phophet and his man-made religion of death and oppression. If you like Islam, be anti-Zionist. If you hate it, drop the stupid name-it-and-blame-it-on-the-Jews game and get on the side of freedom.

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False choice. Both Judiasm and Islam are Satanic. I do not care AT ALL about political forces at work. I care about Godly forces of peace, salt and light. I care about the cancer of the Talmud and Judaism that has bound itself to Christianity in "Judeo-Christian". Anything that rejects Jesus Christ as our Lord and savior is false.

Who's side are you on? Are you on the side of those who want Islamic world dominance? If so, your buddies just tried to bomb ten planes full of people who do them no harm. If you are on the side against Islamic imperialism, then your buddies are the ones trying to stop Hezbollah.

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I am unequivocally on the side of Jesus Christ my Lord and saviour. I am not being dragged into war mongering for Israel or anyone else. Israel attacked and murdered vicously the crew of the USS Liberty and the Americans aboard. Israel is NOT on the side of the US. I prefer the declared enemy of Iran to that.
I reject Zionist zeolots, Jihadis and Crusaders alike, all are anti-Christ.

ContraMundum said:

If so, your buddies just tried to bomb ten planes full of people who do them no harm.

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We have seen these terror alerts before. You just wonder what the authorities were doing sitting on this information for so long. Is there a reason for the timing amid declining poll numbers in the US and UK for Bush and Blair and the unpopularity of the Israeli war against Lebanon?

Contra said:

What makes you think this is really about Zionism? Blaming Zionism is a smoke-screen for the true agenda.

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No it's not, Contra. You provide no evidence for this "true agenda" other than an ad hominem against gywnedd1. As such, the statement merely serves to reveal your belief that there is no distinction between the general Jewish public, and certain sections of their war-mongering civilian/military leadership and intellectual circles. This 'inability' to make dinstinctions in turn reveals either your intellectual limits (which no reasonable person can hold against you), or your determined efforts to put constraints on debate (for which you are not to be respected).

Me, nor Poke, nor gwynedd1 have ever made a gross generalisation about Jews, we have never made an anit-semitic comment. Please quote us where we have said, "All Jews are =negative statement=." As we have been at pains to point out, our views coincide with those of many ordinary Jews and Jewish intellectuals, both within Israel and without. We are against the crimes of right-wing Zionists and their military (a small subset of Jews to be sure), not Jews per se. If you cannot see that simple distinction, see my above comment.

The Jews have always been persecuted, even in countries where they submitted to the government.

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This is patent nonsense. Have Jews been on the receiving end of unspeakable crimes and destruction? Of course they have, anyone who has taken the trouble to read a book on it or visit a Holocaust museum will vouch for that. Have Jews always and everywhere been persecuted? No, any suggestion to the contrary is palpable nonsense. Let me quote the 1937 Royal Commission headed up by Lord Peel for example:

... Nor is the conflict in its essence an interracial conflict, arising from any old instinctive antipathy of Arabs towards Jews. There was little or no friction, as we have seen, between Arab and Jews in the rest of the Arab world until the strife in Palestine engendered it. And there has been precisely the same political trouble in Iraq, Syria and Egypt - agitation, rebellion and bloodshed - where there are no 'national homes'. Quite obviously, then, the problem of Palestine is political. It is, as elsewhere, the problem of insurgent nationalism. The only difference is that in Palestine Arab nationalism is inextricably interwoven with antagonism to the Jews. And the reasons for that, it is worth repeating, are equally obvious. In the first place, the establishment of the national home involved at the outset a blank negation of the rights implied in the principle of national self-government. Secondly, it soon proved to be not merely an obstacle to the development of national self-government, but apparently the only serious obstacle. Thirdly, as the home has grown, the fear has grown with it that, if and when self-government is conceded, it may not be national in the Arab sense, but government by a Jewish majority. That is why it is difficult to be an Arab patriot and not to hate the Jews.

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This didn't start with Zionism, as the position you pretend to hold states.

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Yes... it... did...! See the above quote for example. Jews, Christians and Arabs got along just fine in Palestine before the Zionist settlers began their work of domination in the late 19th-century.

This is about anti-semitism, anti-westernism, pure and simple. It's about Islamic jihadists, and hyper-religious theocrats who want to destroy your way of life and establish theirs in your country. It's about Satan wanting to prove God wrong by destroying God's people. It's in the Bible. It's political and it's religious

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Let's leave Satan our of this, shall we? People are capable of visiting the greatest of evils on each other without his help.

Unless you can provide some evidence for claims, you merely serve to reveal your desperate desire to explain why so many reasonable people have such a problem with the Israeli government's actions.

Airy-fairy formulations do nothing to help explain the world: Look at history, scholarship and so forth. God gave us brains for a reason, namely so that we could reason.

Drawing linkage between al-Qaeda and Hamas is simply nonsense. Would bin Laden like to have Hamas subscribe to his worldview of all Muslims coming together? Did he try to court Hamas in the hope of winning them over? Yes. Did Hamas rebuff him? Yes, as is documented by the leading studies on the subject, Jason Burke for example.

There is a whole spectrum of Islamic political activism. Most is peaceful, some is violent and focuses only on local issues, some is violent looks globally. Space and time do not permit to go into detail on these themes, but the best study is by Jason Burke some of which you can read through Amazon's Look-Inside routine.

Anyway, the idea that you can lump Hamas, Islamic Jihad, Hezbollah and in with 'al-Qaeda' is absurd.

Also interesting to read is the evolution of Hamas tactics. I was reading a piece by a Jewish chap who pointed out the following:

This dissection of the motivation for Hamas terrorism may seem talmudic to some, but it is important. The history of Hamas -- in contrast to its stereotypical image in the Western media -- suggests that its opposition to the peace process has never led Hamas leaders to adopt a strategy of wholesale suicide bombing. Rather, suicide terrorism has been allowed by Hamas leaders as a measure of tactical revenge for humiliating Israeli actions.

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During the intifada, the Palestinian uprisings that shook the Israeli occupied territories from 1987 to 1993 Hamas increasingly attacked Israeli soldiers and settlers, citing the right of self-defense against illegal foreign occupation. The organization, however, showed no intention of blowing up buses carrying innocent civilians inside Israel.

Hamas only resorted to this atrocious type of terrorism after February 1994 when Baruch Goldstein, an Israeli physician and army reserve captain, massacred 29 praying Palestinians in a Hebron shrine. Hamas vowed to teach Israelis a lesson they would never forget. The pledge was to put the Jews through a number of infernos of the kind experienced by the Hebronites. Joined by members of a smaller group, Islamic Jihad, Hamas terrorists mounted seven suicide bombings within Israel proper.

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It's worth pointing out also that under international law, Hamas and Palestinians generally have every right to attack Israeli soldiers who are on their occupied land. So the next time you read that Israeli soliders in the West Bank have been attacked, the Palestinian attackers will only have been exercising their right (just as Nelson Mandela had done so against under apartheid) to fight off their oppressors.

As for them "wanting to destroy our way of life," you've been uncritically taking on board too much rubbish by Bush et al.

Putting aside the fact that you cite no evidence to back up your claims, I just watched a news report on yesterday on the terror raids. Interviewed was one Professor Pape of Chicago University, who has conducted the most exhaustive study to date on suicide bombers, researching the background and motivations for 462 suicide bombings since the 1980s. I googled for him and found this Fox News article.

What did he find? That they were all irrational lunatics wanting to take over the world? No, he found exactly what I and others have been stating ad nauseam:

"It's not driven by religion, but by a clear goal. Iraq is a perfect case in point."

Pape says the bombers were not driven by religion, not offended by our in-your-face, MTV culture. Instead, their motive?"To compel modern democracies to withdraw military forces from the territory that the terrorists view as their homeland."

In plain English? They wanted someone off their property. Consider Iraq.

"Before our invasion of March 2003, Iraq never had a suicide terrorist attack in its history. Never!" Pape explains. "We're on pace to set a new record of 100 suicide terrorist attacks this year. The presence of American combat forces is the oxygen that the suicide terrorist leaders need to recruit the people to go and die for their mission."

"I was suspecting to find, as we know from the standard stereotype, that they would be the wretched of the earth," he says.

We think of suicidal bombers. Poor, desperate, souls, looking to escape miserable lives.

"I found nearly the opposite. Most suicide terrorists are in fact quite socially integrated; they're quite educated, they, in fact, lead quite productive lives," says Pape. "They're operating out of a sense of duty in response to a foreign occupation and absent the motive of a foreign occupation, most would not commit suicide anyway."

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Have you ever read the life story of Mohammed Atta PhD, lead hijacker of the 9/11 attacks?

Will BushCo and Blair (and perhaps many on this forum?) carry on claiming it's irrational, psychopathic Islamofascists who hate everything we stand for who do this? Or will they accept the leading sholarship on the subject which points out that their motivation "95% of the time" is our governments' imperialistic foreign policies and occupation?

As I said, Professor Pape is amply backed up by the leading study of al-Qaeda, published by British journalist Jason Burke (who I also mentioned in a previous post).

gwynedd1 said:

Are you defending the Kabbalah? The Zohar etc?

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No, I'm just telling you that you know nothing about it. It's obvious.

False choice. Both Judiasm and Islam are Satanic. I do not care AT ALL about political forces at work.

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The minute you mention "Zionism", you shift from pure religious debate to politics. The minute you throw political quotes around, as you have, you are talking politics. You've been blurring the boundaries since you chimed in to this thread. Don't try to skirt the topic now.

I am unequivocally on the side of Jesus Christ my Lord and saviour. I am not being dragged into war mongering for Israel or anyone else. Israel attacked and murdered vicously the crew of the USS Liberty and the Americans aboard. Israel is NOT on the side of the US. I prefer the declared enemy of Iran to that.
I reject Zionist zeolots, Jihadis and Crusaders alike, all are anti-Christ.

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Oh yes..."I'm neutral, this doesn't effect me". Sure gwynnedd, be a squib when it comes to taking sides. I know which side I'm on. I'm on the side of the kind of world I'd like to live in- and it's not Islamic, Jihadist or run by those of a weak will.