Logic and faith

[lumberjohn]

Another point, which I would think would be obvious, apparently needs to be clearly stated. Words have different meanings. That is why dictionaries provide several. Someone cannot demonstrate that meaning A is invalid by showing an alternate meaning B is also recognized. Both definitions can be valid.

What I and others on this forum have been pointing out is that one meaning of faith that has been recognized both generally and specifically within Christian theology is an epistemological approach that is independent of reason, logic, and evidence. Pointing out that some Christian theologians don’t subscribe to this definition doesn’t undercut our claim at all. No one is claiming that everyone fully subscribes to the same meanings.

My point is that Christian apologetics ultimately relies on a reason-independent epistemology. I call it faith because this is what others, both Christian and non-Christian, have traditionally called it. If you don’t want to call it faith, that’s fine. But the ultimate question, as I see it, is whether Christianity can be defended without relying on this epistemology. Pedantic discussions of semantics aside, that is the most interesting issue.

 

[Davian]

Yet it exists, put your hands on the books and read them.

Stories in books are the claims, not the evidence. Got anything else?

 

[Wryetui]

No, those books are testimonies about the saints and about their lifes You talk about something you don't know, claiming you know, open a book like that or read on the internet and then you talk to me.

 

[Davian]

No, those books are testimonies about the saints and about their lifes You talk about something you don't know, claiming you know, open a book like that or read on the internet and then you talk to me.

I do not claim to know. I do not accept the claim that you know. How are you different than any other religionist that claims that their religion comports with reality?

 

[Wryetui]

They are different like the sky and the earth, but you can't know it since you didn't read anything of those "both religions" you clame so you speak from your prejudices.

 

[Davian]

They are different like the sky and the earth,

Not in being able show show that you religion comports with reality.

but you can't know it since you didn't read anything

How do you know what I have read and researched, Mr Mian Reeder?

of those "both religions"

I am referring to the thousands of religions created by man.

you clame so you speak from your prejudices.

What are those prejudices, since you seem to know me so well?

 

[Wryetui]

So tell me what you have read about Orthodoxy and the Saints.

 

[Optimax]

Faith is believing what God says, speaking what God says and doing what God says.

In spite of logic.

 

[Davian]

So tell me what you have read about Orthodoxy and the Saints.

That ship has sailed.

 

[Davian]

Faith is believing what God says, speaking what God says and doing what God says.

In spite of logic.

Would you apply faith in dealing with a used car salesman?

 

[zippy2006]

Maybe you skipped over it, but I already gave you a definition. It's in the post of mine you quoted. It was one of several, so here it is again, from Webster...

":firm belief in something for which there is no proof"

So again, it's not as if we're pulling this definition out of thin air. It's common usage.
Also, in what dictionary are parts of definitions assumed? There's a world of difference between a firm belief in something and a firm belief in something based on evidence....and no definition of faith mentions evidence except to note the lack of it.

Evidence and proof are two different things. Once this is admitted your whole case falls apart.

Where did I claim that faith is belief without any evidence? That's not my position. More accurately, the purported evidence is not sufficient to warrant the level of confidence assigned to the belief.

It still isn't in the dictionary, or Christian tradition.

I'm interested in what believers actually believe...

All evidence is to the contrary.

 

[zippy2006]

What I and others on this forum have been pointing out is that one meaning of faith that has been recognized both generally and specifically within Christian theology is an epistemological approach that is independent of reason, logic, and evidence.

Here's your argument: two heretics held to strong fideism, therefore Christianity is inherently fideistic. There's nothing to respond to. It's lazy, invalid, and misrepresentative just to name a few.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

It still isn't in the dictionary,

The dictionary that you acknowledged doesn't provide precise definitions.

or Christian tradition.

Since when does Christian tradition dictate our use of words?

All evidence is to the contrary.

Believe what you want.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

Here's your argument: two heretics held to strong fideism, therefore Christianity is inherently fideistic. There's nothing to respond to. It's lazy, invalid, and misrepresentative just to name a few.

Is William Lane Craig also a heretic? My goodness. Do you read before hitting 'Reply'?

 

[Ana the Ist]

Evidence and proof are two different things. Once this is admitted your whole case falls apart.



It still isn't in the dictionary, or Christian tradition.



All evidence is to the contrary.

Here's the first definition of proof i found online...

"1. The evidence or argument that compels the mind to accept an assertion as true."

One of the definitions for "proof" is "evidence" and in this context, that's exactly the definition we're using.

So, to summarize, one of the common definitions for faith is "belief without evidence to support it." I'm not sure where you're living that you've never heard this...that's really the only meaning for faith that I've heard in real life. Regardless of whether or not you've heard it before this thread ...you've heard it now, and clearly we haven't made it up.

 

[lumberjohn]

Faith is to believe what you do not see; the reward of this faith is to see what you believe.
Saint Augustine

Faith is different from proof; the latter is human, the former is a Gift from God.

Belief is a wise wager. Granted that faith cannot be proved, what harm will come to you if you gamble on its truth and it proves false? If you gain, you gain all; if you lose, you lose nothing. Wager, then, without hesitation, that He exists.
Blaise Pascal

Faith has to do with things that are not seen and hope with things that are not at hand.
Thomas Aquinas

Reason is our soul's left hand, faith her right.
John Donne

Faith consists in believing when it is beyond the power of reason to believe.
Voltaire

Just a smattering of opinions from a few heretics.

 

[Colter]

Faith, like God, is something that should not be defined by people who don't have it or have not experienced it.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

Faith, like God, is something that should not be defined by people who don't have it or have not experienced it.

Why?

 

[FullEnglishBrekkie]

Why?

OK, but can it be defined by people who do have it or have experienced it?

 

[Colter]

OK, but can it be defined by people who do have it or have experienced it?

right