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Logic and faith

Archaeopteryx

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As I said in another thread, from an epistemological standpoint, there is a fundamental difference between endorsing explanations for which there is no good evidence, or even evidence to the contrary, and endorsing explanations that are well-substantiated. From an epistemological standpoint, there is a fundamental difference between demanding absolute and unquestioning certainty in a doctrine, regardless of whether there is reason sufficient to warrant that level of certainty, and allowing doubt and inquiry and demanding that beliefs be justified. From an epistemological standpoint, there is a fundamental difference between religion's attitude to doubt as a "sin" that must be vanquished, and science's attitude to doubt as a vital part of intellectual growth.
 
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lumberjohn

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First, Craig nowhere said or implied that he favors blind faith to reason. The faith isn't blind at all. . . . In our paradigm, reason and faith are two aspects of one thing: the divine will. They are two ways to the same truth.

Without using these exact terms, Craig stated as clearly as possible that he prefers blind faith to reason. What else could it possibly mean to claim that reason must “submit and serve the gospel” or that when a conflict arises between one’s faith (which Craig describes as the witness of the Holy Spirit) and reasoned argument, “the former must take precedence over the latter?” To set one against the other presupposes that they are mutually exclusive concepts.
Second, no special pleading is occurring. He was never playing by the rules of naturalism.
I would agree that he isn’t playing by the rules of naturalism. He isn’t playing by any rules. That’s the problem.
You think it is special pleading because you see it as an apologetical game. Apologetics are posterior to the faith. Fundamentally, we're not playing a game, we're not trying to win an argument.

I respectfully disagree. The root of apologetics is “apologia,” meaning “speaking in defense.” Paul employed this term in his trial speech to Festus and Agrippa in Acts 26:2, referring to his “defense” and employed a related term in Philippians 1:7, to reference “defending the gospel.”

Modern apologists like to portray their discipline as something equivalent to science. It is, however, anything but. Science begins with a very limited set of necessary or self-attesting assumptions and builds testable models based upon observable evidence and logic. If these models pass the tests, they are provisionally accepted as accurate representations of reality, allowing extrapolations to be made and more elaborate models to be built around them. If the models fail the testing, they are rejected and abandoned. Science builds sequentially only upon models that work, and follows wherever those working models lead.

No claim in science is privileged. All remain one test away from falsification. Any test that falsifies a widely accepted theory will be heralded among the scientific community because it necessarily leads to more knowledge and understanding. Science is not concerned with protecting claims. It is concerned with protecting the integrity of the methods used to separate true claims from false ones.

Apologetics, by contrast, is a discipline entirely dedicated to supporting and defending a specific set of claims about the nature of the universe. The very word apologetics belies the true nature of the discipline, for it is entirely concerned with defense. It is the antithesis of science, and indeed of any legitimate academic discipline, as such disciplines are devoted to finding truth, wherever that path may lead and whatever that journey reveals. Science is about open-ended inquiry. Apologetics is about defending a position arrived at before inquiry began. There is nothing open-ended about it.

Apologists begin with a conclusion, which they take to be personally self-evident, and then devise ways to shield that conclusion against any attack. They work backwards to mold the evidence and arguments to the conclusion, to which they are firmly anchored. The apologist is not allowed the luxury of questioning the conclusion, for it is his job simply to defend it. Imagine a knight tasked with defending the castle of the lord that employs him and has provided for the knight’s family his entire life. The knight doesn’t ever consider whether the cause of his lord’s attackers is just. He simply does whatever it takes to fend them off.

Apologists are defense lawyers for God, but God is not like the typical client. Lawyers are tasked with coming up with the best arguments for their clients’ positions. But if the evidence, as it develops, fails to support those arguments, or the opposing attorney otherwise undermines them, the attorney can always go to her client and discuss reassessing their position. The lawyer and her client can concede certain arguments, settle claims on previously unacceptable terms, or take other actions to adapt to the new situation. But apologists don’t have such options, for God doesn’t compromise or reassess. Accordingly, they must proceed full steam ahead, because to retreat would be unthinkable.

One must recognize the difference between reasoning to a conclusion, which is a valid approach, and rationalizing from a conclusion, which is not. The former is what scientists do. The latter is what apologists do. Rather than clearly defining a concept of God, making predictions based upon that conception, and then testing observations to see how well they fit those predictions, apologists take the world we see and craft ever-changing vague conceptions of God around it, relying heavily upon cheats, such as logical fallacies, to fill in the gaps. Apologetics incentivizes and virtually requires such intellectual dishonesty. Logical fallacies allow the apologist to apparently save face without actually winning the argument or even moving the ball. Apologists use logical fallacies like magicians use smoke and mirrors.

Devout apologists can easily justify playing fast and loose with the rules of argumentation and debate because they believe they are fighting the good fight. In a battle for souls on God’s behalf, shouldn’t every weapon be at one’s disposal, even pious deception? The apologist must maintain steadfast in his convictions and absolutely certain of his conclusions, because just as a tiny chip can progressively spider across a windshield, so too can a hint of doubt crack the faith of believers until it is thoroughly shattered. It is this disaster against which the apologist stands guard.

All of this demonstrates that apologists have strong incentives toward intellectual dishonesty. That does not necessarily mean they are all guilty of it, but like a stack of hundred dollar bills sitting on the table before them, the motive is always there. My experience suggests that this motive often gets the best of them. I have yet to read the work of any apologist that is not filled with fallacious reasoning, for which there can be only two explanations – incompetence or dishonesty. The fact that they are typically able to adopt correct reasoning when it supports their positions suggests the latter.

Apologists are not skeptics, doubters, or seekers. They are deeply — personally, socially, and sometimes professionally — vested in defending a set of assumptions that, to anyone standing outside their insular belief system, look ridiculous. As biblical scholar Robert Price has said, “To understand apologetics is to refute it.”
 
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Archaeopteryx

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Without using these exact terms, Craig stated as clearly as possible that he prefers blind faith to reason. What else could it possibly mean to claim that reason must “submit and serve the gospel” or that when a conflict arises between one’s faith (which Craig describes as the witness of the Holy Spirit) and reasoned argument, “the former must take precedence over the latter?” To set one against the other presupposes that they are mutually exclusive concepts.

I would agree that he isn’t playing by the rules of naturalism. He isn’t playing by any rules. That’s the problem.


I respectfully disagree. The root of apologetics is “apologia,” meaning “speaking in defense.” Paul employed this term in his trial speech to Festus and Agrippa in Acts 26:2, referring to his “defense” and employed a related term in Philippians 1:7, to reference “defending the gospel.”

Modern apologists like to portray their discipline as something equivalent to science. It is, however, anything but. Science begins with a very limited set of necessary or self-attesting assumptions and builds testable models based upon observable evidence and logic. If these models pass the tests, they are provisionally accepted as accurate representations of reality, allowing extrapolations to be made and more elaborate models to be built around them. If the models fail the testing, they are rejected and abandoned. Science builds sequentially only upon models that work, and follows wherever those working models lead.

No claim in science is privileged. All remain one test away from falsification. Any test that falsifies a widely accepted theory will be heralded among the scientific community because it necessarily leads to more knowledge and understanding. Science is not concerned with protecting claims. It is concerned with protecting the integrity of the methods used to separate true claims from false ones.

Apologetics, by contrast, is a discipline entirely dedicated to supporting and defending a specific set of claims about the nature of the universe. The very word apologetics belies the true nature of the discipline, for it is entirely concerned with defense. It is the antithesis of science, and indeed of any legitimate academic discipline, as such disciplines are devoted to finding truth, wherever that path may lead and whatever that journey reveals. Science is about open-ended inquiry. Apologetics is about defending a position arrived at before inquiry began. There is nothing open-ended about it.

Apologists begin with a conclusion, which they take to be personally self-evident, and then devise ways to shield that conclusion against any attack. They work backwards to mold the evidence and arguments to the conclusion, to which they are firmly anchored. The apologist is not allowed the luxury of questioning the conclusion, for it is his job simply to defend it. Imagine a knight tasked with defending the castle of the lord that employs him and has provided for the knight’s family his entire life. The knight doesn’t ever consider whether the cause of his lord’s attackers is just. He simply does whatever it takes to fend them off.
In a similar vein: According to Wikipedia, Christian apologetics "is a field of Christian theology which present reasoned bases for the Christian faith, defending the faith against objections." On the surface, this appears to fall broadly in line with the definition of philosophy given in this forum's Statement of Purpose: "Critical examination of the rational grounds of our most fundamental beliefs and logical analysis of the basic concepts employed in the expression of such beliefs" (Concise Encyclopedia). As an exercise in providing "reasoned bases" for Christianity, apologetics would therefore seem to fall under the broad umbrella of philosophy.

However, on a deeper level, such a conclusion might be naive and premature. To understand apologetics' relationship to philosophy we should, I think, examine what apologists themselves have to say about their work and their motivations. The Oxford Centre for Christian Apologetics notes that "apologetics is synonymous with evangelism," or preaching the Gospel to win converts. Following Luther, the apologist William Lane Craig has stated that the proper function of reason is ministerial; that is, reason must serve the Gospel as a "hand-maiden" rather than critically examining the claims contained therein. The evangelistic nature of apologetics, and the attitude to reason it embodies, seem to place it out of line with the spirit of philosophy as defined above. Apologetics is first and foremost a religious exercise, driven by the dictate to evangelise, and not a "critical examination of the rational grounds of our most fundamental beliefs." In any discussion of the case for Christianity, if one is engaged in the latter, one has arguably ceased to do apologetics.

Apologists are defense lawyers for God, but God is not like the typical client. Lawyers are tasked with coming up with the best arguments for their clients’ positions. But if the evidence, as it develops, fails to support those arguments, or the opposing attorney otherwise undermines them, the attorney can always go to her client and discuss reassessing their position. The lawyer and her client can concede certain arguments, settle claims on previously unacceptable terms, or take other actions to adapt to the new situation. But apologists don’t have such options, for God doesn’t compromise or reassess. Accordingly, they must proceed full steam ahead, because to retreat would be unthinkable.
Given that the client is supposedly a deity, it's not unreasonable to ask:

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zippy2006

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I will reply quickly to this post. Unfortunately I won't be able to get to your longer post right now.

What is the evidence by which we are to conclude that the internal witness of the Holy Spirit is reliable as to anything?

The Holy Spirit, being God, is truth itself. Not unlike a basic premise, the "reliability" is self-evident. If your epistemology does not go beyond syllogistic or deliberative reasoning (much less modern scientific reasoning) then it is inevitably incomplete.

There is nothing remotely comparable about placing provisional trust in an established expert and placing complete faith in a subjective feeling that mandates a specific conclusion.

But I never talked about a subjective feeling, I talked about God. And there is something comparable between placing trust in an expert and placing trust in Truth Itself.

The point is that Craig's statement is quite reasonable. Faith is not a deviation from reason in either the case of the Christian or the case of Gödel.

Let me respond quickly to another concern that you and Archaeopteryx have raised. I have pointed out that the Christian is rationally justified in accepting an article of faith (because it comes from a surer source) and rejecting an obscure bit of human reasoning as false because it contradicts the article of faith. Thus there is nothing, in principle, irrational about faith. Contrary to Archaeopteryx's claims, this is what the thread is about. Faith itself is "evidential" rather than blind (as even Plantinga with his "basic belief" holds), and the person confronted with a contradiction is justified in choosing in favor of faith (as Craig pointed out).

It seems to me that this thread is over with. Faith is based on a kind of evidence and is not therefore blind.

A second question has come up. This asks whether the evidence in question is sufficient for the response of faith. This is the question of "entitlement" (see SEP articles here and here). As already noted, another thread could be started on this topic. It has no bearing on whether faith is blind. Instead it asks whether faith is commensurate to the evidence.

If someone opens their umbrella because they think it is going to rain, it is not a blind act. Their subjective state carries with it a kind of--at least proximate--internal rational justification. Despite this fact, it could still be argued that they were too quick to open their umbrella--that the number and kind of clouds in the sky were not sufficient for such an act. Conflating the two is like a conflation of rational justification with objective truth. "Blind" is something altogether different from "insufficient."
 
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Archaeopteryx

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The Holy Spirit, being God, is truth itself.
On what do you base this conclusion?

Not unlike a basic premise, the "reliability" is self-evident.
Given the notable discrepancy between many of the claims that are supposedly justified with reference to the "inner witness of the Holy Spirit," that does not appear to be the case.

But I never talked about a subjective feeling, I talked about God. And there is something comparable between placing trust in an expert and placing trust in Truth Itself.
What about those who, in trusting the "Truth Itself," end up with theological commitments that differ to your own?

Let me respond quickly to another concern that you and Archaeopteryx have raised. I have pointed out that the Christian is rationally justified in accepting an article of faith (because it comes from a surer source) and rejecting an obscure bit of human reasoning as false because it contradicts the article of faith. Thus there is nothing, in principle, irrational about faith.
If your theological commitments were not reached by reason and are not amenable to reason, then in what sense are they reasonable?

Contrary to Archaeopteryx's claims, this is what the thread is about. Faith itself is "evidential" rather than blind (as even Plantinga with his "basic belief" holds), and the person confronted with a contradiction is justified in choosing in favor of faith (as Craig pointed out).
If the preponderance of evidence strongly suggests that a doctrine is false, then why is the individual justified in ignoring this and choosing in favour of faith?

It seems to me that this thread is over with. Faith is based on a kind of evidence and is not therefore blind.
Belief in Peter Popoff's healing powers is also based on "a kind of evidence." zippy2006, I think you are missing the forest for the trees here. As far as I can discern, your argument is that our definition of faith is misinformed because the faithful are able to offer some reasons in support of their faith-based claims. No one disputes that they can do this. Apologetics exists for this very purpose. The core question is whether those reasons are sufficient to warrant the high, often extreme, level of confidence that they have in those claims.
 
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lumberjohn

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Archaeopteryx has made most of the points I would have raised, so I'll try not to be too repetitive. What I think you are failing to recognize is that Plantinga and Craig are talking about a justification that is independent of evidence and reason. The entire point of a "properly basic" belief is that it is justified without reference to evidence or deduction. While the ultimate conclusion one reaches through faith may also be supported by evidence, both consider that evidence ultimately irrelevant to whether you should adopt the conclusion. Even if all the available evidence and reasonable deductions therefrom dispute the conclusion, both Craig and Plantiga's worldviews require that you accept it.

If someone opens their umbrella because they think it is going to rain, it is not a blind act. Their subjective state carries with it a kind of--at least proximate--internal rational justification.

On this point, I must respectfully disagree with you, though your analogy effectively crystalizes why we disagree. A proper justification cannot be entirely subjective and internal. There must be some external, objective component. Otherwise, there is no way to prioritize beliefs in terms of legitimacy -- no way to distinguish the correct from the incorrect. To do something simply because we think we should is the epitome of a blind act.

Despite this fact, it could still be argued that they were too quick to open their umbrella--that the number and kind of clouds in the sky were not sufficient for such an act. Conflating the two is like a conflation of rational justification with objective truth. "Blind" is something altogether different from "insufficient."

Here, you have switched to talking about something entirely different. Suddenly, the decision to open the umbrella is justified by external, non-subjective evidence (the number and kinds of clouds in the sky) but the objection is lodged that the evidence is insufficient. Now, we are back within the world of evidence and reason. I see this type of justification as completely distinct from the entirely "subjective state" you posed above. I am not the one conflating the two. You are.
 
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zippy2006

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Archaeopteryx has made most of the points I would have raised, so I'll try not to be too repetitive.

Feel free to raise them yourself if you like. Archaeopteryx's incompetence is beyond dialogue in my opinion. All he wants to do is examine the sufficiency of evidence without starting a new thread. My post he replied to is sufficient; no other is needed.

What I think you are failing to recognize is that Plantinga and Craig are talking about a justification that is independent of evidence and reason. The entire point of a "properly basic" belief is that it is justified without reference to evidence or deduction.

But that's just false. Let me quote SEP:

Plantinga originally expressed his defence of properly basic theistic belief in terms of the rationality of believing in God ‘without any evidence or argument at all’ (Plantinga 1983, 17). But in fact Plantinga endorses the evidentialist requirement on rational theistic belief—his point is just that this requirement may be fully met through what is basically, non-inferentially, evident in the believer's experience. Hence Plantinga's insistence that his Reformed epistemology is not fideistic (Plantinga 2000, 263).​

While the ultimate conclusion one reaches through faith may also be supported by evidence, both consider that evidence ultimately irrelevant to whether you should adopt the conclusion.

Being moved by the Holy Spirit is itself a kind of evidence. That's what you are denying, but you have given no reason why.

On this point, I must respectfully disagree with you, though your analogy effectively crystalizes why we disagree. A proper justification cannot be entirely subjective and internal. There must be some external, objective component.

This is just the (controversial) epistemological question of Internalism vs Externalism. But what are the reasons you offer? Let's see...

Otherwise, there is no way to prioritize beliefs in terms of legitimacy -- no way to distinguish the correct from the incorrect.

Rational justification is different from truth. So that reason holds no water. It is the only reason you provided.

To do something simply because we think we should is the epitome of a blind act.

There are obviously reasons why he thinks he should open the umbrella, such as the clouds that I referenced. Without such reasons it is impossible to think you should do something. No one thinks of things arbitrarily or "blindly."

Here, you have switched to talking about something entirely different. Suddenly, the decision to open the umbrella is justified by external, non-subjective evidence (the number and kinds of clouds in the sky) but the objection is lodged that the evidence is insufficient. Now, we are back within the world of evidence and reason. I see this type of justification as completely distinct from the entirely "subjective state" you posed above. I am not the one conflating the two. You are.

Really? If you see someone open their umbrella, go talk to them:

John: Why are you opening your umbrella?
Anon: I think it is going to rain.
John: Why do you think it is going to rain?
Anon: No reason!

...see if you ever meet someone who answers that way. Obviously, they will answer with some reason or another. But rational justification is not truth and the reasoning process must stop at some point. How well-reasoned must something be to be justified? That's an open question, but as long as reasoning exists it is not a blind act. That's my point. Again, here's what I said:

If someone opens their umbrella because they think it is going to rain, it is not a blind act. Their subjective state carries with it a kind of--at least proximate--internal rational justification.

Here's what else I said:

A second question has come up. This asks whether the evidence in question is sufficient for the response of faith. This is the question of "entitlement" (see SEP articles here and here). As already noted, another thread could be started on this topic. It has no bearing on whether faith is blind. Instead it asks whether faith is commensurate to the evidence.

Faith is not blind. Faith is always based on evidence. Whether that evidence is of the quality or quantity that you consider sufficient for rational justification is a separate question, but it's just dishonest to claim that faith is blind.

(I realize I haven't yet answered your other post)
 
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zippy2006

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Without using these exact terms, Craig stated as clearly as possible that he prefers blind faith to reason.

He didn't. You're begging the question. This is precisely what we've been talking about.

What else could it possibly mean to claim that reason must “submit and serve the gospel” or that when a conflict arises between one’s faith (which Craig describes as the witness of the Holy Spirit) and reasoned argument, “the former must take precedence over the latter?” To set one against the other presupposes that they are mutually exclusive concepts.

I explained exactly what it means with the Gödel example and others. If you wish to respond you can, but your assertions are not moving us anywhere.

Here's an argument:

The Holy Spirit is Truth Itself
The Holy Spirit revealed x
Therefore x is true​

Despite your protestations to the contrary, there is nothing irrational about this. The fact that someone presents a contrary argument in no way entails the irrationality of such an argument. If you want something more concrete, we can talk about the Church, the Pope's infallibility, etc.

I would agree that he isn’t playing by the rules of naturalism. He isn’t playing by any rules. That’s the problem.

Are you claiming that naturalism is the only possibility? Lots of your statements seem to come down to unsubstantiated assertion. It's strange that someone who talks so much about reason doesn't employ many reasons.

I respectfully disagree.

With what...?

Modern apologists like to portray their discipline as something equivalent to science. It is, however, anything but. Science begins with a very limited set of necessary or self-attesting assumptions and builds testable models based upon observable evidence and logic. If these models pass the tests, they are provisionally accepted as accurate representations of reality, allowing extrapolations to be made and more elaborate models to be built around them. If the models fail the testing, they are rejected and abandoned. Science builds sequentially only upon models that work, and follows wherever those working models lead.

You suffer from Scientism. It's a common problem, and it's historically and philosophically short-sighted.

Apologetics, by contrast, is a discipline entirely dedicated to supporting and defending a specific set of claims about the nature of the universe. The very word apologetics belies the true nature of the discipline, for it is entirely concerned with defense.

Yes. Again, what do you disagree with above?

It is the antithesis of science, and indeed of any legitimate academic discipline, as such disciplines are devoted to finding truth, wherever that path may lead and whatever that journey reveals. Science is about open-ended inquiry. Apologetics is about defending a position arrived at before inquiry began. There is nothing open-ended about it.

As I said, you're trying to win an argument, and you are unconcerned with truth. Because of this, it is of more concern to you that something conform to your preconceived (and modern) methodological bias than that it be true. You reject non-naturalistic conclusions by fiat; you are not concerned with following truth wherever it leads.

Apologists begin with a conclusion, which they take to be personally self-evident...

Clearly false.

The knight doesn’t ever consider whether the cause of his lord’s attackers is just.

Clearly false.

It's ironic that the reason you dislike apologists is because your task--which has nothing to do with truth--is to be the anti-apologist. Your job is prove something false. This has nothing to do with science or reason. As I already noted, the apologist is secondary. You are tertiary.

One must recognize the difference between reasoning to a conclusion, which is a valid approach, and rationalizing from a conclusion, which is not.

Arguments are either sound or unsound. It doesn't matter what you defend or what you attack. But at this point you're not even rising to the level of argument so much as propagandizing.

The former is what scientists do. The latter is what apologists do. Rather than clearly defining a concept of God, making predictions based upon that conception, and then testing observations to see how well they fit those predictions, apologists take the world we see and craft ever-changing vague conceptions of God around it, relying heavily upon cheats, such as logical fallacies, to fill in the gaps. Apologetics incentivizes and virtually requires such intellectual dishonesty. Logical fallacies allow the apologist to apparently save face without actually winning the argument or even moving the ball. Apologists use logical fallacies like magicians use smoke and mirrors.

Perhaps the problem here is that your silly jabs are parried too easily. A good apologist is concerned with truth and unconcerned your badly-motivated and poorly-executed attacks. Heck, you can't even distinguish rational justification from knowledge. If that irks you, get informed, don't whine.

Devout apologists can easily justify playing fast and loose with the rules of argumentation and debate because they believe they are fighting the good fight. In a battle for souls on God’s behalf, shouldn’t every weapon be at one’s disposal, even pious deception?

You describe yourself well, but Christians don't accept the flawed reasoning that takes evil means to achieve a good end.

All of this demonstrates that apologists have strong incentives toward intellectual dishonesty...

Although some apologists can fall into the problematic gulfs you mention, your fundamental error is your assumption that the apologist must provide an answer. Yet this does not hold. Apologetics is a defensive and secondary discipline, as I noted in an earlier post. That doesn't make it illegitimate. Here are the two main errors you make:

  1. "The apologist must always provide an answer to the attacker; he cannot simply admit ignorance." (I already referenced the falsity of this fact and its rational extension in what is known as the Moorean Shift).
  2. "Open-ended inquiry is of ultimate importance." It isn't. Truth is of ultimate importance. If we are led to the truth that open-ended inquiry isn't always the proper approach, then so much the worse for open-ended inquiry. I would rather receive the truth humbly than cling to falsity alongside an unimpeachable belief in "open-ended inquiry." Irrational bias is a problem, but if you continue to merely assert that faith is an irrational bias then you continue to beg the question.

Again, the root of the discussions with atheists in this thread seems to be pride. Faith presents the militant atheist with a barrier that cannot be breached. This bothers them, so they start making up rules like "All barriers must be breachable!" They complain that they lose by definition in our "game." The problem is that it isn't a game, and no one invited them to play. The fact that something is unbreachable does not thereby make it irrational. And if there is a desire to contest this proposition, then the challenger is required to make arguments for their position, not emotional appeals or long diatribes. Faith is unbreachable in principle. There is nothing irrational about this. Get over it.
 
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Archaeopteryx

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Feel free to raise them yourself if you like. Archaeopteryx's incompetence is beyond dialogue in my opinion. All he wants to do is examine the sufficiency of evidence without starting a new thread. My post he replied to is sufficient; no other is needed.
Resorting to ad hominem could be construed as an admission of the inherent weakness of your position. If you feel that my competence here is dubious, then demonstrate where I have gone awry so that I may improve in future. If you cannot, then I'm left to wonder whether it is my competence that is questionable or your argument. Considering the discussion so far, I suspect it is the latter.

Being moved by the Holy Spirit is itself a kind of evidence. That's what you are denying, but you have given no reason why.
You have added strawman to your repertoire now. It bears repeating, for the fourth or fifth time: No one denies that the faithful are able to offer some reasons in support of their faith-based claims. The core question is whether those reasons are sufficient to warrant the high, often extreme, level of confidence that they have in those claims.

Being moved by the Holy Spirit may be claimed as support for any number of diverse and mutually incompatible theological conclusions. In what way then can it be used to reliably distinguish beliefs that are likely true from those that are likely false?

Really? If you see someone open their umbrella, go talk to them:

John: Why are you opening your umbrella?
Anon: I think it is going to rain.
John: Why do you think it is going to rain?
Anon: No reason!

...see if you ever meet someone who answers that way. Obviously, they will answer with some reason or another. But rational justification is not truth and the reasoning process must stop at some point. How well-reasoned must something be to be justified? That's an open question, but as long as reasoning exists it is not a blind act. That's my point. Again, here's what I said:
Which is why the focus is not on whether an individual can provide reasons for their belief, but whether those reasons adequately support the belief.
 
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Archaeopteryx

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I explained exactly what it means with the Gödel example and others. If you wish to respond you can, but your assertions are not moving us anywhere.

Here's an argument:

The Holy Spirit is Truth Itself
The Holy Spirit revealed x
Therefore x is true​

Despite your protestations to the contrary, there is nothing irrational about this. The fact that someone presents a contrary argument in no way entails the irrationality of such an argument. If you want something more concrete, we can talk about the Church, the Pope's infallibility, etc.
The question is whether it is a good argument. Again, for the sixth time now: no denies that the religious are capable of producing arguments of this kind in an attempt to support their religious claims.

You suffer from Scientism. It's a common problem, and it's historically and philosophically short-sighted.
Misguided accusations of "scientism" are often made by people who refuse to have their claims subjected to any sort of scrutiny, whether philosophical or scientific. Asking someone how they know something to be true is not scientism.

Again, the root of the discussions with atheists in this thread seems to be pride. Faith presents the militant atheist with a barrier that cannot be breached. This bothers them, so they start making up rules like "All barriers must be breachable!" They complain that they lose by definition in our "game." The problem is that it isn't a game, and no one invited them to play. The fact that something is unbreachable does not thereby make it irrational. And if there is a desire to contest this proposition, then the challenger is required to make arguments for their position, not emotional appeals or long diatribes. Faith is unbreachable in principle. There is nothing irrational about this. Get over it.
Like the emotional appeal in the first sentence of this paragraph? :rolleyes:
 
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zippy2006

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Again, for the sixth time now: no denies that the religious are capable of producing arguments of this kind in an attempt to support their religious claims...

Feel free to raise them yourself if you like. Archaeopteryx's incompetence is beyond dialogue in my opinion. All he wants to do is examine the sufficiency of evidence without starting a new thread. My post he replied to is sufficient; no other is needed.

cf. post #171
 
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Archaeopteryx

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This might interest you @zippy2006
Okay, thank you for responding. I agree with you that discussion is awesome and necessary. Entreaty and debate can occur too I believe in a healthy environment with other Christians who truly seek the truth.

I was speaking specifically to the OP in this case, in the way this OP was worded. A syllogism to me is a term used in philosophy. I prefer to think like a Hebrew and just wanted to call attention to others about how we don't even realize that when we philosophize or when we use scientific terms, we are using ideas that are not Hebraic in nature, and we are asserting reason into a realm that is mostly irrational, and 'reason' functions by different rules than God's word does. We have different world views, basically.

Since philosophy is "the rational investigation of the truths and principles of being, knowledge, or conduct" to apply philosophy to the discussions of Christianity necessarily is, from the get-go, arguing about whether God and Godliness are true and trying to obtain their essence from logical principles, which can never be. Because first and foremost being a Christian means having faith in Jesus Christ and faith cannot be argued upon. You must be called to it, and believe it inside you.

This is not philosophizing to me. It is discussing and sharing perspectives. Not trying to prove something out.
 
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zippy2006

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This might interest you @zippy2006

Christian tradition and reason stand against her, yet she herself does not claim that her thinking is Christian so much as Hebraic.

In any case, I think that we can both see that her logic is self-defeating.

But how are men to call upon him in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without a preacher? (Romans 10:14)​

When we believe, when we hear, when we interpret, when we read the Bible, and when we proclaim the Gospel we are appealing to reason. Language itself, the medium which the scriptures make use of, is a manifestation of reason. Indeed, the "Word" or "logos" from John 1:1 is a manifestation of God's reason. It is the Word by which all things are created and all intelligibility comes to be (Jn 1:3).
 
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lupusFati

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The problem brought up in the OP is essentially the problem of hard solipsism. It's an unfortunate reality that the laws of logic are not self-confirming - we cannot take them as given until we assume them as given. And at a certain level, we do in fact have to have faith. Even if we can put two stones with two stones and end up with four stones, how can we tell that the stones even exist? How do we know we're not brains in a vat?

The logical absolutes must be assumed, as they are the basis of any understanding of the world. However, as always, Ockham's Razor is a very useful tool here. We need to assume something. Assuming that the logical absolutes are true gives us a very basic, very useful framework to work off of. Assuming that god exists does not, as even once you assume that, you have to proceed to assume the logical absolutes, or assume quite a lot about god's character.

At the end of the day, though, I'm interested in what works, and going this far into the abstract seems rather pointless to me. You can assume that the logical absolutes aren't true, that reality is an illusion, and that science doesn't work. And then you'll almost certainly get killed the next time you try to cross the street.

Thank you for finally saying what I haven't been able to put into a proper argument. Especially the first paragraph.
 
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