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Locust

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MatthewDiscipleofGod

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By the way, are we talking about some verse that talks about locust walking with 4 legs or something that's not in the Bible that Ark stated? I didn't see anything in my Bible about locust walking on 4 legs, but maybe I missed it.
 
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MatthewDiscipleofGod

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I found an interesting article on ICR.


"After my recent university lecture on scientific creationism, a student referenced a Bible passage in Leviticus regarding insects to imply that the Bible contained errors and that Christianity and creation thinking are false.

The passage? "Yet these may ye eat of every flying creeping thing, that goeth upon all four, which have legs above their feet, to leap withal upon the earth; (including) the locust . . . the beetle . . . and the grasshopper after his kind" (Leviticus 11:21,22). Tucked within a list of dietary regulations for the people of Israel, it refers to a number of animals whose exact identification is obscured by antiquity. But let's look closely.

First, we must recognize that modern day taxonomic categories, like species, genus, family, etc., are not the same as the Biblical "kind." Even the term "creeping thing" finds wide application meaning, in general, small animals which exist in great numbers. In this chapter it is used for insects (v. 21), various small mammals and reptiles (vv. 29,30), as well as animals which "move" in the ocean (v. 10).

Likewise the term "flying" applies both to flying insects and birds (vv. 13-19). Obviously, the context and description must take precedence in identification, and in this case, the "four legged insect" applies, in particular, to the grasshopper/locust kind.

In our modern classification system, all insects have at least six legs. They are members of the large and varied arthropod phyla, which includes also the eight-legged spiders, the multi-legged centipedes, as well as crabs—anything with segmented legs. Some insects also have wings, but these don't count as legs.

Today, locusts are considered migratory grasshoppers. They all have two large hind legs, quite different in appearance, size, and function from the front four legs. Their front legs are used for "crawling, clinging, and climbing," while their back legs rest "above" their front legs and feet, and are used for "jumping." Furthermore, the Hebrew word translated "beetle" actually comes from the verb "to leap," implying a similar leaping insect, not our modern beetle. Thus, the Biblical description of grasshoppers turns out to be exactly anatomically correct. Far from being an embarrassment to Bible believers, this passage bears sterling testimony to the accuracy and inspiration of Scripture. As always, arguments which claim that the Bible is wrong are themselves wrong, and the Bible still stands!

It was interesting that when the student made the claim of the Bible's error, it followed my 90-minute lecture on the scientific evidence for creation. I had not directly mentioned the Bible. The question, as were several others, was a smoke screen—an effort to sidestep the issue. But even if the Bible has an error (which it doesn't), that still doesn't produce transitional fossils, or identify beneficial mutations, or account for the exquisite design in living things. Such diversionary tactics are really a futile attempt to avoid the personal implications of creation.

For if creation is true and the Bible is trustworthy, then the Creator has authority over our lives and lifestyles, and someday we must stand before our Maker and give account for our actions and choices. And that is the real issue. No smoke screen can cancel that appointment."
 
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seebs

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Project 86 said:
By the way, are we talking about some verse that talks about locust walking with 4 legs or something that's not in the Bible that Ark stated? I didn't see anything in my Bible about locust walking on 4 legs, but maybe I missed it.

You did. It's in the kosher laws. The Bible talks at length about flying things that creep on all fours, which is to say, four-legged flying things.

Only there aren't any.
 
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seebs

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Project 86 said:
Didn't read my post from ICR? You just made a statement with no evidence and didn't refute anything.

Read it. It's nonsense. There are no four-legged flying creatures.

If you want me to believe that there are four-legged flying creatures, you will have to name some. Note that there's more than one reference here, so you need to address the non-locust-shaped ones as well.

However, the fact is that locusts walk on all six legs, just like any other insect.

If we are to take your interpretation, we find that the Bible simply never addresses the question of flying ants, house flies, bees, or other flying insects, except for the few that have "jumping legs", because it never once tells you whether or not you can eat things which walk on six legs. Furthermore, the explanation you cite works only if the hind legs are never used at all except when jumping.
 
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Karl - Liberal Backslider

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I read it. It appears to be dishonest. It implies that the rear legs are held up out of the way whilst the animal walks on the front four. It does not, it uses all six, pretty much the same way as any other insect.
 
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MatthewDiscipleofGod

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Locust were eatten and are still eatten today. All because the Bible doesn't say you can't eat bees or ants doesn't make those passages wrong. It just is showing what you can eat in these passages. To the average person that lives around locust the passages do not appear to be dishonest. As stated before I have 26 years of first hand experience with locust. The simple FACT is that the rear jumping legs ARE NOT used the same as the front four. We are nit picking if we say otherwise.
 
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Karl - Liberal Backslider

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I didn't say the passages were dishonest. I said ICR's description of locust locomotion is dishonest.

Locusts walk on all six legs. That's the simple truth.

What this discussion has demonstrated is that one has to adjust how one interprets the Biblical texts in accordance with what one knows about the way reality is. We know that locusts actually have six legs, and walk on all of them, so we invent ways (as you and Ark Guy have done) of interpreting the Biblical text so as not to contradict what we actually know about locusts.

All theistic evolutionists are doing is exactly the same process with regard to Genesis 1-3.
 
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Karl - Liberal Backslider

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No - they are not when you read them knowing that locusts actually have and walk on six legs.

If you didn't know that, the pure and simple reading would lead you to conclude that locusts were four legged animals.

That's the entire point.
 
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MatthewDiscipleofGod

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You can see how the back legs are not used in even nearly the same sense as the front 4. You can tell the back legs are designed for jumping and not walking. If they were designed for walking they would be identical to the front 4. The current design though makes them good enough so that it doesn't hinder walking all together but they certainly doesn't improve their walking ability one bit. That's why we need to understand the wording used in those passages. The writers were not dumb. They had locusts in those areas and knew plenty about them as well. You can say they use all 6 legs for walking, technically that's correct but if you going to require every description to be that picky then you are going to make the bible 100 times larger then it already is. Same goes with how a human walks example. A person can say humans walk with two legs. The next person goes, see! Your wrong! You require your head as well! Not a perfect example but I hope it conveys the point. Well I need to get to work. I'm going to Minnesota so I'll try to get on from there some time. Have a good Christmas everyone.
 
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Robert Bingham

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Locusts walk on six legs. It is documented by countless sources and it matches my personal observations.

The Bear: No, a flying squirrel was the first thing I thought of years ago but it does not work.

It is good to respectfully discuss but there are problems that cannot be explained. What is your reasoning that a camel is not cloven-hoofed?
 
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seebs

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TheBear said:
Would a flying squirrel meet the criteria of what the Bible is refering to?

No, and neither does the sugar glider. (A sugar glider is like a marsupial flying squirrel, with two penises. I am not making this up.)

They don't actually have wings, although they do have flaps of skin between their legs.

But they can't gain altitude; they can only glide.
 
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seebs

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Project 86 said:
You can see how the back legs are not used in even nearly the same sense as the front 4. You can tell the back legs are designed for jumping and not walking. If they were designed for walking they would be identical to the front 4.

The question is not whether they are "designed for walking", but whether they are used to walk.
 
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