Local Flood

[A4C]

Here is one more, "Texas Caves and the Flood"

It is intresting that although we had not previously made mention of it you raised the matter of limestone caves even in the context of a local flood.
I must admit that I am disappointed to find that not a whole lot of research has been done on the extensive limestone deposits semingly on the same sediment/strata level globally. While certainly evolution geology has no satisfactory answer at least the Flood offers possibilities . My understanding is that similar build up can occur on the ocean floor due to decaying calcium rich living organisms but not at a rate sufficient to account for the massive build up that we see actually exists. Perhaps therefore some exceptional circumstances may well be involved. Maybe the "exceptional circumstances" could be the decay of literally millions of animal carcasses (including the majority of the worlds human population) because having escaped being buried in sediment and becoming fossillised they ultimately perished by drowning. The submerged decaying matter giving rise to prolific algea populations enabling the bio-conversion process to cause the massive limestone buildup.*
Again the evidence supports a world wide flood whereas other answers fail even basic scrutiny
*Additionally Bible student might gain further insight to the biblical reference to piles of "dried bones"

 

[Dr.GH]

I must admit that I am disappointed to find that not a whole lot of research has been done on the extensive limestone deposits semingly on the same sediment/strata level globally.

Look, at some point soon you need to either go to a library, or better, take a class in geology. There is a massive amount of research on the formation of marine limestones, for example, because this gives us considerable data about past climate changes. A few references:

Manfred Schidlowski, Peter W. U. Appel, Rudolf Eichmann and Christian E. Junge
1979 "Carbon isotope geochemistry of the 3.7 × 109-yr-old Isua sediments, West Greenland: implications for the Archaean carbon and oxygen cycles" Geochim. Cosmochim. Acta 43, 189-199

Nereo Preto, Linda A. Hinnov, Lawrence A. Hardie and Vittorio De Zanche. 2001: Middle Triassic orbital signature recorded in the shallow-marine Latemar carbonate buildup (Dolomites, Italy). Geology: Vol. 29, No. 12, pp. 1123–1126.

Mary L. Droser and David J. Bottjer. 1988: Trends in depth and extent of bioturbation in Cambrian carbonate marine environments, western United States. Geology: Vol. 16, No. 3, pp. 233–236.

Mordeckai Magaritz, Richard Bart, Aymon Baud, William T. Holser "The carbon-isotope shift at the Permian/Triassic boundary in the southern Alps is gradual" Nature 331, 337-339 (28 Jan 1988)

Abstract:
[font=times, times new roman, serif]Carbon isotope ratios in marine carbonate rocks have been shown to shift at some of the time boundaries associated with extinction events; for example, Cretaceous/Tertiary1 and Ordovician/ Silurian2. The Permian/Triassic boundary, the greatest extinction event of the Phanerozoic3, is also marked by a large

13C depletion4,5. New carbon isotope results from sections in the southern Alps show that this depletion did not actually represent a single event, but was a complex change that spanned perhaps a million years during the late Permian and early Triassic. These results suggest that the Permian/Triassic (P/Tr) extinction may have been in part gradual and in part 'stepwise'6,7, but was not in any case a single catastrophic event.

[/font]

Christina L. De La Rocha and Donald J. DePaolo 2000 Isotopic Evidence for Variations in the Marine Calcium Cycle Over the Cenozoic" Science 18 August 2000; 289: 1176-1178 [DOI: 10.1126/science.289.5482.1176] (in Reports)

Here are some web sites:

Petrology of Carbonate Hardgrounds

This article on paleosols is just too good not to mention:

Permian and Triassic paleosols and paleoenvironments of the central Transantarctic Mountains, Antarctica

 

[Mechanical Bliss]

I would wonder if modern geology takes the concept of a global flood seriously and examines its likely effects.

Been there done that, almost two hundred years ago.

And considering the fact that the general effects of such an event would be simplistic to investigate, it's been done quite frequently on these boards.

We saw recently that the effects of the Asian sunami altered the equilibrium of the earth as relatively large amounts of land mass was redistributed. This was of course measureable due to the fine instrumentation we have today. Could it be imagined what sort of impact the forces of thousands of massive sunamis would have if they were all acting concurrently all over the world.

This is just another repetitive red herring to avoid addressing the evidence.

Mt St Helens is another example of local impact that could as well be extrapolated to a world wide event.

This is the most gigantic non sequitur in the creationist arsenal when it comes to global flood arguments. It also proves that its user knows nothing about geology.

Lahar deposits around Mt. St. Helens are unlike the vast majority of the sedimentary rock record, so any extrapolation onto the rest of the sedimentary rock record is ill informed.

Are there limestones, fossils, unconformities, igneous intrusions, interbedded trace fossils, evaporites, et cetera in those deposits? No.

Those deposits are not even close to being representative for the rest of the sedimentary rock record.

To say that such catastrophic events would have no bearing on the distibution of sediment is like saying that the dropping of the bomb on Hiroshima would have no effect except on whoever the bomb casing might have hit.

You are arguing against a strawman of what the actual conclusions of geologists are.

Basically, as usual, you don't have the slightest clue what you're talking about.

 

[Mechanical Bliss]

Can you explain why the burrows themselves cannot be pre flood?

If you are going to handwave evidence away with the "pre-flood" excuse, then you actually have to identify which strata are pre-, syn-, and post-flood in order for that excuse to have any merit.


P.S. There is no such thing as "evolution geology" so when you repeat the same rhetoric you used and rebutted months ago here, that does not make people here want to take your posts seriously.

 

[A4C]

If you are going to handwave evidence away with the "pre-flood" excuse, then you actually have to identify which strata are pre-, syn-, and post-flood in order for that excuse to have any merit.


P.S. There is no such thing as "evolution geology" so when you repeat the same rhetoric you used and rebutted months ago here, that does not make people here want to take your posts seriously.

So your original statement that there were multiple level burrows really had no legs to it eh?. Certainly the "evidence" you have supplied suggests that. I suppose your breed of geologists can look at a photo and know exactly what "layer" it is. Perhaps I am not in that league and I admit it.

 

[A4C]

Basically, as usual, you don't have the slightest clue what you're talking about.

Basically, as usual, you don't have the slightest clue what you're talking about.

 

[Dr.GH]

So your original statement that there were multiple level burrows really had no legs to it eh?. Certainly the "evidence" you have supplied suggests that.

BLABLABLA

All of the references, and web sites I provided are relevant. All of them are easily available.

Quite simple really, put up - or shut up.

 

[Ryal Kane]

Egad! A4C just used the almighty 'I know you are but what am I' defence.
I don't think we can come back from that.

 

[A4C]

BLABLABLA

All of the references, and web sites I provided are relevant. All of them are easily available.

Quite simple really, put up - or shut up.

It was never me who made the statement that there was not multiple animal burrows . It was your group who said there was extending over various sediment layers therby suggesting that a global flood was out of the question. Now what I am asking for is details of where these burrows are which so far has not been forthcoming.
Now instead I have been shown a single layer burrow of an extinct animal (potentially likely in a a flood scenario) as well as references to insects, plant mterial and limestone caves.
Perhaps you could show me where I have overlooked from the "evidence" that has been given, where it states that there are multiple sediment/strata layer animal burrows.
As for taking your suggestion I really am not too sure what exactly I am required to "put up" Am I supposed to get a "scientific" statement that something doesn't exist because it actually doesn't exist. If that was the case I am sure we could occupy the entire scientific community making similar statements of all the things that they have found not to exist (including transitional fossils). Is that how the community that you appear to be a part of behaves. If so do the salary paying public aware of this seeming waste of the public purse.
Perhaps also Dr., in your response (should you be inclined to give one) you might use language that suitably befits your position.
Good day Sir.

 

[Dr.GH]

Now what I am asking for is details of where these burrows are which so far has not been forthcoming

BLABLABLABLABLA

Merely read the references I have given you already. If you have read them and still can not understand that there was never a global flood, let alone one a mere 4000 years ago, then there is no hope for you to ever gain a toehold on reality, and I wish you luck in another life (should we be so lucky). Let me know one way or the other so that I can determine if it is worth any further responces to your posts.

Quite simple really, put up - or shut up.

 

[A4C]

BLABLABLABLABLA

Merely read the references I have given you already. If you have read them and still can not understand that there was never a global flood, let alone one a mere 4000 years ago, then there is no hope for you to ever gain a toehold on reality, and I wish you luck in another life (should we be so lucky). Let me know one way or the other so that I can determine if it is worth any further responces to your posts.

Quite simple really, put up - or shut up.

OKay
One of your pieces of "evidence" said to prove that there was no flood actually makes refernce to the "Sydney Basin." Now one of your esteeemed colleagues tells us that the SB was fomed by a water coarse that was about 60 m high and 120km across drawing water from the surface of the continent from over 2000 km. away. You will note that the result of sediment layer and erosion by receeding waters (of Noah's flood) make a scenario similar to the formation of the Grand Canyon. How do you suppose there is justification for the mention of the Sydney Basin within your "evidence" in light of this "enlightened" information.
I am sure that you will find similar behaved people to yourself in what ever "afterlife" you experience whether you expected it to be so or not.

 

[Dr.GH]

I'll take that as a "no." Adios muchacho.

 

[A4C]

I'll take that as a "no." Adios muchacho.

Or a "yes"
It depends what the question is
toodleloo

 

[L'Anatra]

Perhaps I am not in that league and I admit it.

Precisely. And that is why you've no foundation to stand on. The intellectual dishonesty you've committed in just this thread is absolutely astounding.

You continue to ask for references and "evidence" and yet you have backed up your ridiculous claims with absolutely nothing.

 

[A4C]

Precisely. And that is why you've no foundation to stand on. The intellectual dishonesty you've committed in just this thread is absolutely astounding.

You continue to ask for references and "evidence" and yet you have backed up your ridiculous claims with absolutely nothing.

May God bless you brother

 

[Floodnut]

There was a flood in the Black Sea region. But there was before that a worldwide flood that killed all humans except the 8 that were on the Ark.
The biblical flood produced hundreds of strata worldwide that are full of millions of fossils of dead animals that were all destroyed in that flood.

The Biblical account of Noah was NOT based on Gilgamesh, but both were drawn from the worldwide event that actually occured. The Gilgamesh epic is a mixed up perversion of the Truth, and the Mosaic account is the inspired and infallible record of the Truth which was believed by Jesus, and Peter, and Paul.

 

[Mechanical Bliss]

There was a flood in the Black Sea region. But there was before that a worldwide flood that killed all humans except the 8 that were on the Ark.

No, there was no such event because not only is there not enough water on earth for it to occur, there is a total lack of evidence as well as evidence against it.

The biblical flood produced hundreds of strata worldwide that are full of millions of fossils of dead animals that were all destroyed in that flood.

If this is your assertion, you need to defend it by answering basic questions:

1. Which stratum or sequence of strata in the sedimentary rock record represent this event?

2. What evidence demonstrates that this interval was deposited when you claim?

Without answers to those questions, your assertions are nothing but blowing smoke.

The Biblical account of Noah was NOT based on Gilgamesh, but both were drawn from the worldwide event that actually occured. The Gilgamesh epic is a mixed up perversion of the Truth, and the Mosaic account is the inspired and infallible record of the Truth which was believed by Jesus, and Peter, and Paul.

That's false, as the OT borrowed the flood myth depicted in the Epic of Gilgamesh, which predates the OT.

 

[A4C]

BLABLABLABLABLA

Now there IS a statement with huge acedamic content

 

[In A Perfect World]

Is it possible that the only people in the world at the time were in that region?

No. The Black Sea isn't anywhere near where our species was originally known to come from. Mankind did not just migrate to the black sea, and then after the flood migrate back. Such an idea is silly and calls for Occam's Razor.

 

[In A Perfect World]

There was a flood in the Black Sea region. But there was before that a worldwide flood that killed all humans except the 8 that were on the Ark.

Humans reduced to only 8? Oh my, the incestual acts that would follow... and the recessive traits they'd bring forth.

The biblical flood produced hundreds of strata worldwide that are full of millions of fossils of dead animals that were all destroyed in that flood.

Mind linking to a source that identifies these fossils from the flood?