Living in the End Times: Advice for the Conscience of a Non-Believer

[LightandTruth]

Here are a couple of hopeful, bright spots on the horizon for everyone.

New England Journal of Medicine: Coronavirus May Be No Worse than Flu | PSI Intl

Emory researchers testing drug as potential treatment for coronavirus

 

[Ahermit]

...
1) How do you conduct yourself in adversity or the end times in a way that reflects the gravity of the situation and yet is consistent with your moral values and religious beliefs?...

I love the Love that loves me.

...
2) How do you come to terms with the loneliness of realising that you are surrounded by people who are either moral vacuums, having no clear conscience of their own or no willingness to act or to recognise the situation, or are so genuinely corrupt that they embrace destruction and cannot therefore rely on them to co-operate when things turn bad?...

I love the Love that loves me.

...
3) How do you ring the alarm bells to stay safe in your own personal life, protect friends and family whilst also keeping yourself calm and composed in the face of such overwhelming odds?...

I love the Love that loves me.

Whenever you feel grateful, you are being loved by the Love (Truth/God) that loves you.
So, love it back with all your heart, mind, and soul. Once you crack the bondage of reasoning and logic of this, loving with complete abandon becomes easy. It is that 'love of Love' within which is 'untouchable' by what is happening all around you.

 

[Shadow]

Hi again Shadow! I'm sorry to hear that you suffered under a communist regime like this. Yes, communism is an evil, sick religion and ideology. It is not just an alternative economic model or political system. I have studied it somewhat and I know where its strengths and weaknesses lie and the underlying sources thereof.

The "end times" of capitalism are not necessarily what they appear to be. Capitalism in the west is in crisis, yes, but communism in China and Russia also experienced a crisis and morphed into more of a capitalist system in both countries out of sheer necessity. I strongly suspect (without specific evidence to point to) that communists in the west noticed that free market enterprise capitalism was thriving and doing very well and that they had no hope of directly attacking it and generating interest in a revolution and overthrow of the system. So they INFILTRATED the system and infiltrated both the environmental movement and the feminist movement in order to destabilize our western society. They also infiltrated the mainstream media and the universities. Once they were able to begin the process of corrupting and destabilizing these various foundational elements in our society (along with brainwashing the impressionable young adults concerning the disadvantages of capitalism vs. the advantages of socialism/communism), they were on track to succeed in their quest to destroy us. In fact, I strongly suspect that they infiltrated most of the major corporations and put their foot hard on the gas pedal to create runaway, extreme capitalism with the "growth at all costs" mentality. Multinational mega-corporations were the result and they continue to absorb smaller companies like parasitic amoebae. This, I suspect, was all by design to enable the public demonization of capitalism. It is a distorted, corrupted form of capitalism and is not true free enterprise anymore.

Here's a peek at what the communists of the west have been up to lately (and they don't know that we know). Why are climate change realists called 'science deniers'? | PSI Intl

Thanks. I was actually a communist in the UK and briefly a member of the communist party of Britain. They had about 700-1,000 members out of a population of 66 million and were one of the largest far left groups. The far left vote hasn't gone above 1% in the UK since 1920 and often hangs around 0.5% or less depending on the year. Most of the support is from young people and in universities and doesn't reflect the wider population.

Certain groups have employed "entryist" tactics, such as joining the Labour Party under Jeremy Corbyn. This is more a sign of utter defeatism than anything else. They cannot build there own independent movement or win a mass base of supporters based on their own ideas, so like a parasite they try to feed off a more powerful host. The Communist Party USA (CPUSA) isn't entryist but has endorsed every Democratic Party presidential candidate since 1988. They probably don't have the money, resources or members to run their own campaign.

Even if I believed communism were the right response to the crisis of capitalism, these groups are so marginalised and irrelevant that it just isn't rational to expect them to grow from small groups huddled in someone's basement arguing over a passage in Marx or Lenin, to becoming a ruling party with the confidence of the people capable of governing an entire country. It is very difficult to turn these theories in to something that addresses everyday concerns of ordinary people even if it can appeal to a certain kind of intellectual vanity of trying to explain everything (of which I was seduced by until I got to understand it better). I grew out of it, although I still retain a deep interest in the subject.

 

[Shadow]

Well this is no Chinese Restaurant, and thus far, you have spent more time trying to convince me that you are some witnessing specialist, than you have speaking directly to the person who needs your expertise.

No. You just chose your words wisely so that you don't offend and turn them off. It helps to know why they believe what they believe. The Atheist I've known over the years were educated people. I learned a lot while I was on the Atheist forum where I'm no longer active. You can also learn a lot about this on exchristian.net where there's a lot of Christians who converted to Atheism.

I went to a Chinese restaurant with a staunch Atheist and discussed things and never once did we argue or offend one another. Effective witnessing takes more thoughtfulness than you think.

Just to help things along, I do appreciate JIMINZ being blunt and getting straight to the point. It is something to consider and keep in mind and I do need to honestly reconsider my beliefs on a range of sucjects. I was expecting a diversity of opinions in the responses I was going to get so I don't mind someone being direct about the nature of their faith.

However, Oberamagau is right in so far as conversion is not an overnight process accomplished with a single reply to a single thread. It often takes a great deal more time for someone to receive new ideas and to be receptive to them. Having tried to convert people in the past, (with zero success by the way ) a more conversational and friendly approach doesn't necessarily have the satisfaction of being blunt (and can feel a bit dishonest and manipulative at times if done without a genuine love and respect for the person concerned) but is often much more effective. People need to get to know you and to trust you before they really are willing to listen. At some point you have to let go and accept individual freedom is involved and is often more important than what we hold the truth to be- an unsettling experience I will concede even if it can be rewarding to see someone grow and to learn things from them. Though I never converted anyone to my past beliefs, a friendly, open approach was more effective at keeping people engaged. Talking over food and drink is always a bonus. That is just my two cents of experience anyway.

 

[Shadow]

"God bless"?

Your profile page says you're an atheist and you have your fingers crossed for the Trump-Kim summit. So you're an atheist who references God (presumably with at least some degree of sincerity) in Whom you don't believe and your hope is somehow tied to the superstition of finger-crossing.

I'm a psychologist and I could tell you how to handle anxiety and worry through that paradigm but I'm going to answer your questions as a Christian, through that paradigm. When I statrted to read this op I thought perhaps you were a Premillennial Dispensationalist Christian because I hadn't noted the handle and Dispies are often filled with (false) angst about the end of the world imminently occurring. I've left that content in my post for their sake.

I think you should surrender to Christ, not merely convert to Christianity.

I would encourage you to explore other eschatologies. Within Christianity, only Dispensationalism breeds the kind of distress described above. Most of the Church both now and historically has not and does not dread the future. Most of us know Who is in charge and Whose we are and we have no fear of the future. We don't have a God Who plans the destruction of His own creation. Ours is not a God Who makes His own Church, the body of His own Son impotent and in need of rescue. We don't have a Messiah Who lets the defeated enemy usurp his kingdom.

I suggest you pick up a copy of Francis Schaeffer's trilogy and read it.

And I would encourage you to ask yourself why you hold a worldview that causes you such distress, especially since most of us do not.

I believe scripture. I understand the truth of scripture, especially passages like the following,

Romans 8:26-39
"In the same way the Spirit also helps our weakness; for we do not know how to pray as we should, but the Spirit Himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words; and He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is, because He intercedes for the saints according to the will of God. And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose. For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified. What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who is against us? He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him over for us all, how will He not also with Him freely give us all things? Who will bring a charge against God's elect? God is the one who justifies; who is the one who condemns? Christ Jesus is He who died, yes, rather who was raised, who is at the right hand of God, who also intercedes for us. Who will separate us from the love of Christ? Will tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? Just as it is written, 'For Your sake we are being put to death all day long; we were considered as sheep to be slaughtered.' But in all these things we overwhelmingly conquer through Him who loved us. For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord."​

The days of the apostles being persecuted have come and gone. Christians are still persecuted but we out-number all other religions. God has and continues to keep His promises. Nothing can separate us from the love of God that is Christ Jesus.

1 Corinthians 6:19-20
"...do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and that you are not your own? For you have been bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body."​

1 Peter 2:9-12
"...you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for God's own possession, so that you may proclaim the excellencies of Him who has called you out of darkness into His marvelous light; for you once were not a people, but now you are the people of God; you had not received mercy, but now you have received mercy. Beloved, I urge you as aliens and strangers to abstain from fleshly lusts which wage war against the soul. Keep your behavior excellent among the Gentiles, so that in the thing in which they slander you as evildoers, they may because of your good deeds, as they observe them, glorify God in the day of visitation."​

Matthew 28:18-20
"All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age."​

You and I are not apostles like the eleven, but we are royal priests in God's holy nation chosen by God Himself. Our lives are not our own; they are His.

Act like it.

We are adopted daughters of The Most High God who walk in the authority of the Son and the power of the Spirit, heirs to all the privilege and inheritance that is ours her and now as well as in the future.

Act like it.

Perfect love casts out fear. Whatever does not proceed from faith is sin.

Act like it.

Shadow, Trump is not going to destroy the planet. Neither is plastic or the melting ice caps. The current angst about coronavirus is propaganda-driven hysteria. The fatality rate of that virus is currently about 3%. When it first it in the Mediterranean MERS-CoV form the fatality rate was 40%. The world is not going to hell in a hand basket and we Christians would be much more effective if the doomsayers and scaredy cats would get out of our way so we can get on with the task of making disciples of the nations, being fruitful and subduing the earth by the Spirit with the gospel of peace.

I believe scripture.

Matthew 13:24-30
"Jesus presented another parable to them, saying, 'The kingdom of heaven may be compared to a man who sowed good seed in his field. But while his men were sleeping, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went away. But when the wheat sprouted and bore grain, then the tares became evident also. The slaves of the landowner came and said to him, 'Sir, did you not sow good seed in your field? How then does it have tares?' And he said to them, 'An enemy has done this!' The slaves said to him, 'Do you want us, then, to go and gather them up?' But he said, 'No; for while you are gathering up the tares, you may uproot the wheat with them. Allow both to grow together until the harvest; and in the time of the harvest I will say to the reapers, 'First gather up the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them up; but gather the wheat into my barn.'"​

Acts 17:22-31
"Paul stood in the midst of the Areopagus and said, 'Men of Athens, I observe that you are very religious in all respects. For while I was passing through and examining the objects of your worship, I also found an altar with this inscription, 'TO AN UNKNOWN GOD.' Therefore what you worship in ignorance, this I proclaim to you. The God who made the world and all things in it, since He is Lord of heaven and earth, does not dwell in temples made with hands; nor is He served by human hands, as though He needed anything, since He Himself gives to all people life and breath and all things; and He made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined their appointed times and the boundaries of their habitation, that they would seek God..."​

God has appointed you to this time and place and He has done so so you would seek Him. According to Ephesians 2:10, those God saves are His workmanship and He has created us in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

Act like it.

Matthew 6:25-34
"For this reason I say to you, do not be worried about your life, as to what you will eat or what you will drink; nor for your body, as to what you will put on. Is not life more than food... seek first His kingdom and His righteousness, and all these things will be added to you. "So do not worry about tomorrow; for tomorrow will care for itself. Each day has enough trouble of its own."​

Do not be anxious about anything. Pray and thank God when you do worry (Phil. 4:4-9).

I used to deal drugs. At first I was just a high school kid selling pot out of my car but eventually that turned into tens thousands of dollars of drugs of all kinds. I used to sell drugs in those projects outside of Baltimore used to film the show "The Wire." I've known pimps, prostitutes, thieves, even murderers, and no end of addicts.

On one occasion I was held captive at gun point for four hours. I can assure you the end of yourself is achieved in moments like that. I've been shot at or more than one occasion but few things are as soul draining as staring down the barrel of a revolver for four hours with nothing else to do and no way out.

Today I work with abuse and trauma victims. I do it almost every day. I hear the accounts of the women who were allowed to play with daddy's ***** at the age of four later to be groomed as sex partners while mom ignores it all, and the accounts of the men who were sodomized by clergy for a decade or more, or the comabt veteran who watched a bomb go off and kill everyone as far as he could see but not him and how he heard the lingering screams of those dismembered around him (or her). It's a hard day for me if I hear four or five of those accounts in the same day.

I wasn't the one abused or blown up.

I don't live with thieves and prostitutes any more. It's amazingly refreshing and restorative to come home to a wife who puts up with me and loves me in spite of myself. My friends are good genteel Christian men and women struggling to live holy and godly lives just like me (and presumably you). I don't have the worries I once had. I'm not worried about who's going to steal my stuff from me or how I'm going to exploit my next victim without them knowing or whether or not I'm going to get shot..... by accident.

I am an adopted son of The Most High God and I walk in His might, not my own. I have enough on my plate to conquer the small portion of the world God brings across my path each day and I do it as victoriously as I can, given my fallen but redeemed, regenerate but still corruptible identity in Christ crucified and resurrected.

If you're living with folks who are dangerous then I recommend you move. If you're living with folks who are toxic then I recommend you move. If you're not living with folks who are toxic or dangerous then I recommend you be thankful.




my apologies for the length.

This is a stunning and very welcome response combining both faith and your own life experience. I will try and do it justice with a longer and more through reply later when I have had time to mull it over. But it has given me much to think about. Thanks.

 

[JIMINZ]

I appreciate your words, thank you.

I do not want you to feel like I was Witnessing to you about you becoming a Christian because, I was not, your thread heading said you were looking for ADVICE.

I was doing nothing more than giving you the best advice possible, it is up to you whether or not you take anything I said and investigate the validity of it.

There isn't a Christian alive that can talk an Atheist into Christianity because, without God drawing you to Himself it's just a conversation on beliefs.

This is what I meant.

John 6:44
No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him:
and I will raise him up at the last day.

Using your own words, Communism seemed to be a good thing, until you found it really isn't applicable, and you become disillusioned with it, Communism is a way of the world, whereas Christianity is the way of God.

The way of the world appears to work but, only for a limited time.

Again what I said was advice, you can take it or leave it, but when God Reveals Himself to you and Draws you by His Spirit, I could tell you that Bananas are 20 cents a pound and you would say Give me Jesus, it's not the Witnessing it's the Drawing of God Himself for you Immortal Soul.

 

[Amittai]

... Certain groups have employed "entryist" tactics ... This is more a sign of utter defeatism than anything ...

What a super honest and caring post. Personally as I don’t know how to change my “profile” I now count myself an “agnostic as to baggage” (“baggage” being contrasted to “god”).


If there are christians reading this I would like to think they will call on each other to confess representatively, and implore the Lord’s providence, and get in practice at keeping each other company. Because those are the only works that will cut ice with Our Lord, from those that claim “allegiance”.


Sentimental and hysterical religion could flourish in the boom years (ceased over 14 years ago, if anyone noticed). The sombre tone of most Christians on this thread is probably because we realised we ARE living among toxic people, if only at “service” or “meeting” times (I know several denominations from the inside).


I'm in the UK too (and I know what it is to be an "entryist" of very long standing)!

 

[FreeinChrist]

ADVISOR HAT

Folks, this is NOT a debate forum, nor is the place to bicker back and forth about how to respond.

A clean up was done. ​

 

[Sanoy]

Your thinking sounds very much like an intuitive theist. There are two systems of humanity which could respond to the present condition. In the case of design, mankind has a set of values that work and when humanity goes beyond those paradigms they break down and self destruct. However with unguided evolution it is random variance which brings about new features that lead to fitness. You have noticed the variance but you see them as our doom rather than our future. That model of thinking seems to fit the first system.

1) How do you conduct yourself in adversity or the end times in a way that reflects the gravity of the situation and yet is consistent with your moral values and religious beliefs?
This life is my childhood. This is my opportunity to grow into the adult I will be on the other side.

2) How do you come to terms with the loneliness of realizing that you are surrounded by people who are either moral vacuums, having no clear conscience of their own or no willingness to act or to recognize the situation, or are so genuinely corrupt that they embrace destruction and cannot therefore rely on them to co-operate when things turn bad?
This is something we Christians feel a lot. I have the opportunity to go to a church where there is a community of believers who embrace objective moral values and have committed themselves to those values.

3) How do you ring the alarm bells to stay safe in your own personal life, protect friends and family whilst also keeping yourself calm and composed in the face of such overwhelming odds?
I know that what happens here, and how I respond to it, is my opportunity to shape myself into the adult I will become on the other side of this brief life.

 

[Shadow]

Edit: I have tried to cut down the size of the quotations so it's more manageable. I expect it may be a difficult read, but I hope it is at least thoughtful and full of love.

I'm a psychologist and I could tell you how to handle anxiety and worry through that paradigm but I'm going to answer your questions as a Christian, through that paradigm. When I statrted to read this op I thought perhaps you were a Premillennial Dispensationalist Christian because I hadn't noted the handle and Dispies are often filled with (false) angst about the end of the world imminently occurring. I've left that content in my post for their sake.

I think you should surrender to Christ, not merely convert to Christianity.

I think I love this world too much to love God. I confess I probably love other people more than I love myself. I should have been more selfish and gone after the money, power and sex that everyone supposedly finds value in. Maybe I would have found meaning in it as others do.

But in pursuing higher values, whether it be to cure my own depression, to read a book, learn to play music or think about things that "matter" in so far they are larger than our own individual existence, I have lost something. There is an incomprehension, an uneasy admission of nihilism, that remains out of my reach of understanding.

If we built our world only for ourselves and then destroy ourselves in the process, we have negated the only meaning we ever had. All values stem from life and so without life, there can be no values. The end of the world is the end of all human values. It's bigger than just the death of an individual, no matter how much we may care for them.

I would encourage you to explore other eschatologies. Within Christianity, only Dispensationalism breeds the kind of distress described above. Most of the Church both now and historically has not and does not dread the future. Most of us know Who is in charge and Whose we are and we have no fear of the future. We don't have a God Who plans the destruction of His own creation. Ours is not a God Who makes His own Church, the body of His own Son impotent and in need of rescue. We don't have a Messiah Who lets the defeated enemy usurp his kingdom.

I suggest you pick up a copy of Francis Schaeffer's trilogy and read it.

And I would encourage you to ask yourself why you hold a worldview that causes you such distress, especially since most of us do not.

I hold these views because I believe they are essentially true. I would never have chosen to believe these things otherwise. The details I am less certain of and that gives space to re-evaluate them. However, I don't believe it is a choice I can decide over what is true. It just simply "is" so. We have a duty to ourselves and others to follow the evidence where ever it leads us. We can only ever be free or hope to live productive and meaningful lives, if we follow the truth.

The truth is complicated, so I hope I have the humility to accept I have seen only a very small part of it.

I believe scripture. I understand the truth of scripture, especially passages like the following,

...

Perfect love casts out fear. Whatever does not proceed from faith is sin.

Act like it.

I'm not a great one for scripture and I have yet to read a bible from cover to cover, but I do generally assume that a historical Jesus did in fact exist. I don't have a reason to challenge that. Sometimes it seems too human to be false. The idea that Jesus is arrested only for his followers to turn around and say "well, I knew he was a trouble-maker" seems too revealing to be anything other than true. The story is too human to be fiction. If it were fiction, whoever wrote it would put Shakespeare out of a job.

Yet, if Jesus did die for the sins of mankind, I can understand that. I can understand the love, the faith and the courage that could bring someone to do that, even if they knew the people they were saving were not worthy. Kindness makes us do strange things when we can see through the illusions of the world and gain perspective that for all the evil we may do, we never really stopped being frightened children frightened of monsters under the bed. Our fear makes us monsters, so in the end we do not have to fear the monsters we could become from abusing ourselves, others and our freedom.

It is something else however to watch humanity devalue it's own existence, it's own survival to the point that not even the most corrupt motives of self-interest can seem to stir us from our sleep-walking in to tragedy. We just let it happen.

There is a nihilism in that. Something profoundly inhumane, that is beyond forgiveness, compassion and love. There is only incomprehension because people themselves don't even know why the are going along with it. They do it anyway because we are trapped in the prison of our routine. That isn't a choice or freedom. That's a kind of slavery, but to what I don't know.

Shadow, Trump is not going to destroy the planet. Neither is plastic or the melting ice caps. The current angst about coronavirus is propaganda-driven hysteria. The fatality rate of that virus is currently about 3%. When it first it in the Mediterranean MERS-CoV form the fatality rate was 40%. The world is not going to hell in a hand basket and we Christians would be much more effective if the doomsayers and scaredy cats would get out of our way so we can get on with the task of making disciples of the nations, being fruitful and subduing the earth by the Spirit with the gospel of peace.

There is a great deal of exaggeration, but my understanding is that the science (of climate change at least) is sound. I do not believe that the sensationalism of the media is particularly helpful because it misinforms people but also isn't conducive to thoughtful discussion or reflection on what to do as these situations continue to develop.

Eventually, we are all going to have to be part of a much larger conversation about what we do once we realise we can no longer prevent an "end" of all things. I might be a little bit ahead of my time, but I don't think it's very long. People are starting to notice that there is something bigger going on that any one individual, even a Trump, can be held responsible for.

I believe scripture.

Matthew 13:24-30
"Jesus presented another parable to them, saying, 'The kingdom of heaven may be compared to a man who sowed good seed in his field. But while his men were sleeping, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went away. But when the wheat sprouted and bore grain, then the tares became evident also. The slaves of the landowner came and said to him, 'Sir, did you not sow good seed in your field? How then does it have tares?' And he said to them, 'An enemy has done this!' The slaves said to him, 'Do you want us, then, to go and gather them up?' But he said, 'No; for while you are gathering up the tares, you may uproot the wheat with them. Allow both to grow together until the harvest; and in the time of the harvest I will say to the reapers, 'First gather up the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them up; but gather the wheat into my barn.'"​

Acts 17:22-31
"Paul stood in the midst of the Areopagus and said, 'Men of Athens, I observe that you are very religious in all respects. For while I was passing through and examining the objects of your worship, I also found an altar with this inscription, 'TO AN UNKNOWN GOD.' Therefore what you worship in ignorance, this I proclaim to you. The God who made the world and all things in it, since He is Lord of heaven and earth, does not dwell in temples made with hands; nor is He served by human hands, as though He needed anything, since He Himself gives to all people life and breath and all things; and He made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined their appointed times and the boundaries of their habitation, that they would seek God..."​

God has appointed you to this time and place and He has done so so you would seek Him. According to Ephesians 2:10, those God saves are His workmanship and He has created us in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

Act like it.

Matthew 6:25-34
"For this reason I say to you, do not be worried about your life, as to what you will eat or what you will drink; nor for your body, as to what you will put on. Is not life more than food... seek first His kingdom and His righteousness, and all these things will be added to you. "So do not worry about tomorrow; for tomorrow will care for itself. Each day has enough trouble of its own."​

Do not be anxious about anything. Pray and thank God when you do worry (Phil. 4:4-9).

I haven't found god. But if I ever met him, her, or "it", I expect after a certian amount of rage and anger at the evils in the world, perhaps the tantrums of an unruly child, I would wonder whether "he" could be loved for what he has done to us or has allowed us to do to ourselves. I don't envy Jesus mounting himself on the cross for the sins of all mankind, but I wonder whether Jesus could ever love and forgive the god who sent of allowed the chosen people to the gas chambers. Every Jew should curse God as a wicked and evil deity, unworthy of human consideration. I don't believe evil disproves the existence of god- only that god cannot be "good" in a sense we can understand or would want to.

If god exists he gave me eyes to see, a mind to think and a heart to feel. God has alot of explaining to do, but I don't think there is any deity that can justify allowing the human race to destroying itself in a nuclear war or scavenging in the wreckage of our civilisation due to climate change. I can't imagine such a god and I don't want to. Perhaps some truths are best left unknown.

I used to deal drugs. At first I was just a high school kid selling pot out of my car but eventually that turned into tens thousands of dollars of drugs of all kinds. I used to sell drugs in those projects outside of Baltimore used to film the show "The Wire." I've known pimps, prostitutes, thieves, even murderers, and no end of addicts.

On one occasion I was held captive at gun point for four hours. I can assure you the end of yourself is achieved in moments like that. I've been shot at or more than one occasion but few things are as soul draining as staring down the barrel of a revolver for four hours with nothing else to do and no way out.

Today I work with abuse and trauma victims. I do it almost every day. I hear the accounts of the women who were allowed to play with daddy's ***** at the age of four later to be groomed as sex partners while mom ignores it all, and the accounts of the men who were sodomized by clergy for a decade or more, or the comabt veteran who watched a bomb go off and kill everyone as far as he could see but not him and how he heard the lingering screams of those dismembered around him (or her). It's a hard day for me if I hear four or five of those accounts in the same day.

I wasn't the one abused or blown up.

I don't live with thieves and prostitutes any more. It's amazingly refreshing and restorative to come home to a wife who puts up with me and loves me in spite of myself. My friends are good genteel Christian men and women struggling to live holy and godly lives just like me (and presumably you). I don't have the worries I once had. I'm not worried about who's going to steal my stuff from me or how I'm going to exploit my next victim without them knowing or whether or not I'm going to get shot..... by accident.

I am an adopted son of The Most High God and I walk in His might, not my own. I have enough on my plate to conquer the small portion of the world God brings across my path each day and I do it as victoriously as I can, given my fallen but redeemed, regenerate but still corruptible identity in Christ crucified and resurrected.

If you're living with folks who are dangerous then I recommend you move. If you're living with folks who are toxic then I recommend you move. If you're not living with folks who are toxic or dangerous then I recommend you be thankful.

my apologies for the length.

For what it is worth, thanks for your service, as it is clearly difficult to put yourself in the line of fire for the benefit of others. There are a great many people who have reason to be distressed because of their life experiences. Whilst I do have depression, I am grateful that I have been relatively fortunate. I have a relatively comfortable life, loving parents. I've never gone hungry and never known sexual or physical violence or abuse. Many have of course.

Yet I don't feel that the world's troubles don't stop at my front door. We are all connected and share our future on this planet together. As an individual I am not afraid of dying, but I don't seek it either. Death is inevitable, but we don't necessarily get to chose the time and circumstances.

It remains a challenge to explain how so many otherwise decent people, who often show concern for others in their own lives, could have become so indifferent and trapped in failing to secure the future of their very way of life. I know we avoid thinking about death and can compensate for our own mortality by believing we will leave "something" behind. It is hard however to contemplate that we are not simply going to die but also take down the work of past generations with us. That doesn't sit well with me at all however I put it. I don't have the love to accept that.

 

[LightandTruth]

Thanks. I was actually a communist in the UK and briefly a member of the communist party of Britain. They had about 700-1,000 members out of a population of 66 million and were one of the largest far left groups. The far left vote hasn't gone above 1% in the UK since 1920 and often hangs around 0.5% or less depending on the year. Most of the support is from young people and in universities and doesn't reflect the wider population.
Certain groups have employed "entryist" tactics, such as joining the Labour Party under Jeremy Corbyn. This is more a sign of utter defeatism than anything else. They cannot build there own independent movement or win a mass base of supporters based on their own ideas, so like a parasite they try to feed off a more powerful host. The Communist Party USA (CPUSA) isn't entryist but has endorsed every Democratic Party presidential candidate since 1988. They probably don't have the money, resources or members to run their own campaign.
Even if I believed communism were the right response to the crisis of capitalism, these groups are so marginalised and irrelevant that it just isn't rational to expect them to grow from small groups huddled in someone's basement arguing over a passage in Marx or Lenin, to becoming a ruling party with the confidence of the people capable of governing an entire country. It is very difficult to turn these theories in to something that addresses everyday concerns of ordinary people even if it can appeal to a certain kind of intellectual vanity of trying to explain everything (of which I was seduced by until I got to understand it better). I grew out of it, although I still retain a deep interest in the subject.

Very interesting. Thanks for the clarification Shadow!

 

[LightandTruth]

Shadow: "I haven't found god. But if I ever met him, her, or "it", I expect after a certain amount of rage and anger at the evils in the world, perhaps the tantrums of an unruly child, I would wonder whether "he" could be loved for what he has done to us or has allowed us to do to ourselves. I don't envy Jesus mounting himself on the cross for the sins of all mankind, but I wonder whether Jesus could ever love and forgive the god who sent of allowed the chosen people to the gas chambers. Every Jew should curse God as a wicked and evil deity, unworthy of human consideration. I don't believe evil disproves the existence of god- only that god cannot be "good" in a sense we can understand or would want to.

If god exists he gave me eyes to see, a mind to think and a heart to feel. God has alot of explaining to do, but I don't think there is any deity that can justify allowing the human race to destroying itself in a nuclear war or scavenging in the wreckage of our civilisation due to climate change. I can't imagine such a god and I don't want to. Perhaps some truths are best left unknown."

Great thoughts Shadow! This is exactly the kind of intelligent, rational evaluation of Him and His Being and involvement with mankind that God wants us to grapple with. After we wrestle with these conflicting concepts for a bit, He then wants us to carefully examine his written revelation of Himself - the Bible - to determine the answers to these questions. Many Christians secretly - or overtly - believe God is incomprehensible ultimately, and we just have to accept that He is who He says He is, in faith. There is an element of truth to that (faith precedes understanding), but even those who experience this faith and are transformed by it struggle with understanding God. Wisdom and understanding are precious treasures and difficult to find according to the Book of Proverbs. The truth, though, in relation to God and His Person, is that He has MADE Himself comprehensible to a very significant degree via His written Word because that was His intent in revealing Himself in this way and in the person of Jesus Christ.

So why does evil exist in this world (as you indicated above) and, more specifically, why do bad things happen to good people?

Years ago I wrote several articles (at Planet Preterist) on this subject from the standpoint of God's attributes and this one falls under God's "Omniscience". Most people believe (without actually consulting the Scriptures) that God knows everything about everyone. In actual fact, He states repeatedly throughout the Scriptures that He does NOT have this unlimited knowledge about all of mankind individually. His angels do surveillance on His behalf and are basically sort of an "intelligence network" but God Himself does NOT track the activities and circumstances of every individual human on this planet. He ONLY tracks His closest friends and spiritual family at that level. So the "evil" that occurs and manifests itself in such horrific ways is really beyond His control unless He is alerted to it by the angels that it has reached levels requiring immediate intervention.

You mentioned the "chosen people" and the "gas chambers". I'm going to say a couple of things here that I trust will not be misconstrued as being somehow "hateful" or "antisemitic". I don't hate Jews. But our world today has some gross misconceptions concerning their real identity and their relation to the God of Israel and prophecy. The Jews of today (and those who suffered and died in the Holocaust) are not actually directly affiliated with the Nation of Israel in the Bible and are not "God's chosen People". They are not the descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and they have no part in any prophetic fulfillment of any kind. I can back that up with both Scripture and history if you like but that might be better handled in the "Controversial Christian Theology" corner of this forum.

Anyway, I hope some of these thoughts are helpful! I like where you've taken this whole quest and process of inquiry.

 

[Shadow]

Shadow: "I haven't found god. But if I ever met him, her, or "it", I expect after a certain amount of rage and anger at the evils in the world, perhaps the tantrums of an unruly child, I would wonder whether "he" could be loved for what he has done to us or has allowed us to do to ourselves. I don't envy Jesus mounting himself on the cross for the sins of all mankind, but I wonder whether Jesus could ever love and forgive the god who sent of allowed the chosen people to the gas chambers. Every Jew should curse God as a wicked and evil deity, unworthy of human consideration. I don't believe evil disproves the existence of god- only that god cannot be "good" in a sense we can understand or would want to.

If god exists he gave me eyes to see, a mind to think and a heart to feel. God has alot of explaining to do, but I don't think there is any deity that can justify allowing the human race to destroying itself in a nuclear war or scavenging in the wreckage of our civilisation due to climate change. I can't imagine such a god and I don't want to. Perhaps some truths are best left unknown."

Great thoughts Shadow! This is exactly the kind of intelligent, rational evaluation of Him and His Being and involvement with mankind that God wants us to grapple with. After we wrestle with these conflicting concepts for a bit, He then wants us to carefully examine his written revelation of Himself - the Bible - to determine the answers to these questions. Many Christians secretly - or overtly - believe God is incomprehensible ultimately, and we just have to accept that He is who He says He is, in faith. There is an element of truth to that (faith precedes understanding), but even those who experience this faith and are transformed by it struggle with understanding God. Wisdom and understanding are precious treasures and difficult to find according to the Book of Proverbs. The truth, though, in relation to God and His Person, is that He had MADE Himself comprehensible to a very significant degree via His written Word because that was His intent in revealing Himself in this way and in the person of Jesus Christ.

Thanks.

I am still grappling with my own anti-religious sentiments to such an extent that I have been very reluctant to sit down and read the bible from cover to cover. That much I know is prejudice and doesn't deserve consideration, but it is there nonetheless so it is something I have to overcome. I did read Revelations as a kid (because that was the "cool" part that gets loads of movie references, ) and the very first part of Genesis. Beyond that my knowledge of Christianity is really only cultural references or a few parables I may have heard in primary school as a kid. (I still remember the poem "Footprints" from time to time).

When I was still a communist, I thought about whether people should ban Christmas. Christmas was the only major religious festivals I was involved in and on paper, Marxism said "basically yes!". I did try to not celebrate it, but my mum loves Christmas so I have gone along with it. I wouldn't insult my mum like that as it would be really petty. I like the food at Christmas anyways so the point was somewhat mute. The Soviet banned Christmas and replaced it with "days of industrialisation" when people went to work, only for the people to reinvent Christmas traditions for new years instead with a Christmas tree, cards and the Russian version of Santa giving presents to children. Although in historical terms it's such a small thing, it pokes holes in the ideology. The holes add up eventually because that's where the real story of humanity comes through, the "cracks in the Berlin wall" if you will.

In the end, I realised Christians should be the ones objecting to the commercialised, pagan nightmare Christmas has become. We could live without black Friday sales and the Flying Reindeer and decorated Pine Trees to celebrate a birth in the Middle East should raise more eye brows. It should really be reclaimed as a religious holiday and tell the rest of us to go do something else every December 25th. I'm sure the Turkeys would be relieved. But you can't stop people celebrating it however they want. It's so weird.

Anyways, I'm going off-topic somewhat.

So why does evil exist in this world (as you indicated above) and, more specifically, why do bad things happen to good people?

Years ago I wrote several articles (at Planet Preterist) on this subject from the standpoint of God's attributes and this one falls under God's "Omniscience". Most people believe (without actually consulting the Scriptures) that God knows everything about everyone. In actual fact, He states repeatedly throughout the Scriptures that He does NOT have this unlimited knowledge about all of mankind individually. His angels do surveillance on His behalf and are basically sort of an "intelligence network" but God Himself does NOT track the activities and circumstances of every individual human on this planet. He ONLY tracks His closest friends and spiritual family at that level. So the "evil" that occurs and manifests itself in such horrific ways is really beyond His control unless He is alerted to it by the angels that it has reached levels requiring immediate intervention.

Now, that is fascinating. I have never heard that before so that is quite a unique insight. If you have links to the articles available, I will certainly give them a look. If not, I will take your word for it for now and will have to do my own research at a later date. That is intriguing and certainly throws open the doors on to some new ideas.

You mentioned the "chosen people" and the "gas chambers". I'm going to say a couple of things here that I trust will not be misconstrued as being somehow "hateful" or "antisemitic". I don't hate Jews. But our world today has some gross misconceptions concerning their real identity and their relation to the God of Israel and prophecy. The Jews of today (and those who suffered and died in the Holocaust) are not actually directly affiliated with the Nation of Israel in the Bible and are not "God's chosen People". They are not the descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and they have no part in any prophetic fulfillment of any kind. I can back that up with both Scripture and history if you like but that might be better handled in the "Controversial Christian Theology" corner of this forum.

No worries. I don't think we need to labour this point. In thinking about human suffering it was the first thing that came to mind. I wasn't sure if including it was a good idea, but it just felt "right" even if it is genuinely quite dark.

Anyway, I hope some of these thoughts are helpful! I like where you've taken this whole quest and process of inquiry.

Yes, thanks very much. Keep them coming. I am reading everyone.

 

[LightandTruth]

Thanks.
I am still grappling with my own anti-religious sentiments to such an extent that I have been very reluctant to sit down and read the bible from cover to cover. That much I know is prejudice and doesn't deserve consideration, but it is there nonetheless so it is something I have to overcome. I did read Revelations as a kid (because that was the "cool" part that gets loads of movie references, ) and the very first part of Genesis. Beyond that my knowledge of Christianity is really only cultural references or a few parables I may have heard in primary school as a kid. (I still remember the poem "Footprints" from time to time).
When I was still a communist, I thought about whether people should ban Christmas. Christmas was the only major religious festivals I was involved in and on paper, Marxism said "basically yes!". I did try to not celebrate it, but my mum loves Christmas so I have gone along with it. I wouldn't insult my mum like that as it would be really petty. I like the food at Christmas anyways so the point was somewhat mute. The Soviet banned Christmas and replaced it with "days of industrialisation" when people went to work, only for the people to reinvent Christmas traditions for new years instead with a Christmas tree, cards and the Russian version of Santa giving presents to children. Although in historical terms it's such a small thing, it pokes holes in the ideology. The holes add up eventually because that's where the real story of humanity comes through, the "cracks in the Berlin wall" if you will.
In the end, I realised Christians should be the ones objecting to the commercialised, pagan nightmare Christmas has become. We could live without black Friday sales and the Flying Reindeer and decorated Pine Trees to celebrate a birth in the Middle East should raise more eye brows. It should really be reclaimed as a religious holiday and tell the rest of us to go do something else every December 25th. I'm sure the Turkeys would be relieved. But you can't stop people celebrating it however they want. It's so weird.
Anyways, I'm going off-topic somewhat.
Now, that is fascinating. I have never heard that before so that is quite a unique insight. If you have links to the articles available, I will certainly give them a look. If not, I will take your word for it for now and will have to do my own research at a later date. That is intriguing and certainly throws open the doors on to some new ideas.
No worries. I don't think we need to labour this point. In thinking about human suffering it was the first thing that came to mind. I wasn't sure if including it was a good idea, but it just felt "right" even if it is genuinely quite dark.
Yes, thanks very much. Keep them coming. I am reading everyone.

I'll see if I can track down those articles for you Shadow! I took a look over at PlanetPreterist and it looks like the website and domain have been sold to someone else and it's in a foreign language now. It looks like my articles are no longer archived there. But I can break down the basics for you here too at my next opportunity. Time to get ready for work now though! Great discussion here!

 

[Josheb]

I think I love this world too much to love God.

Immaterial. This op is about managing or reducing your distress. Correct?

If we built our world only for ourselves and then destroy ourselves in the process, we have negated the only meaning we ever had.

That is circular.

You, according to you, are selfish and too selfish, and yet building the world only to ourselves and destroying it negates meaning.

All values stem from life and so without life, there can be no values.

That is not quite correct.

Values may not be known where no sentient knowing life exists, but if a God exists then values exist whether a single human ever draws breath to know them or not. If you're negating the existence of God then there is still the problem of subjectivism because a group of humans creating a world of values only for themselves invariably leads to self-destruction.

It's definitely not going to help you with your worry.

The end of the world is the end of all human values.

That is true if what you believe is true. If what I believe is true the the end of the world 1) isn't going to happen, 2) if it does happen then it's not the end of values, and 3) it might well just be a milestone toward bigger and better things.

Yay! Let's end the world!

Romans 6:1-9
"What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase? May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it? Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death? Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life. For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection, knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin; for he who has died is freed from sin. Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him, knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, is never to die again; death no longer is master over Him."​

1 Corinthians 15:32 ESV
"If the dead are not raised, 'Let us eat and drink, for tomorrow we die.'”​

Your worry betrays any authenticity. Why? Because you are going to die. It is just a matter of time before the inevitable happens. Maybe the Trump-Kim summit will work out amazingly well but you are gonna die no matter how that summit ends. Maybe failures in that summit will somehow end up with you dying because Kim sends a nuclear missile to your hometown. Boom! You're dead.

Your worries are over.

The solution to the worries expressed in this op is to have that which you dread happen! Does that qualify as irony?

I hold these views because I believe they are essentially true.

Unless what I believe is true.

I'm not a great one for scripture and I have yet to read a bible from cover to cover, but I do generally assume that a historical Jesus did in fact exist.

Wait a minute.

You have chosen your values without ever having read (and therefore correctly understood) the single greatest book on values and spirituality known to modern humanity? Have you read any of the other great religions' great books?

Do you think that might have something to do with the angst exprssed in this op?

That isn't a choice or freedom. That's a kind of slavery, but to what I don't know.

You need to read the Book.

I haven't found god. But if I ever met him, her, or "it", I expect...

If you ever meet God you'll be amazed you didn't cr@p your britches. You'll be amazed you're still drawing breath. Such is the love He has for you.

If god exists he gave me eyes to see, a mind to think and a heart to feel.

Indeed.

Romans 1:20
"...since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse."​

We (theists and non-theists) are all looking at the exact same evidence. We simply draw different conclusions.

God has alot of explaining to do...

No, you have the cart before the horse. This is a huge part of the problem: you think God is accountable to you, not the other way around. You think the Creator is accountable to the creature. You do so because in your lack of knowledge you do not like the way things are even as you acknowledge your own selfishness and the self-serving nature of the world. You just said this is what you've chosen. God did not make you selfish. God did not make you choose as you have chosen and if He rent the fabric of time and space and prevented you from making more selfish choices you'd with your last breath complain about His doing so!

On one hand you want God to stop such choices but on the other you want your choices, though they be selfish. That is not a God problem.

...I don't think there is any deity that can justify allowing the human race to destroying itself in a nuclear war or scavenging in the wreckage of our civilisation due to climate change.

Than I guess it's a good thing He has prevented that from happening.

Too bad you don't give Him credit for it.

Too bad you prefer worry over giving God some credit. Too bad you choose selfishness over love and faith. Too bad you choose selfishness over altruism.

I can't imagine such a god and I don't want to. Perhaps some truths are best left unknown.

Don't look now but you already have imagined such a God.

And a godless universe in which the non-existing god permits the destruction of the world humans live on causes you distress.

There is a better way.

For what it is worth, thanks for your service, as it is clearly difficult to put yourself in the line of fire for the benefit of others.

You misunderstand my post. I was a criminal. I was a criminal picking up a shipment of drugs to sell to others so they could satisfy their addictions when some crazy addict decided he was going to play games and hold me hostage. I was a criminal negotiating the manufacture of PCP with chemists and mobsters when some crazy fool decided things were to stressful so he decided to air things out a little and almost got everyone killed. I was a criminal when the police kicked in the door looking for a con artist who didn't happen to be on the premises and by the grace of God know one was holding so they had to leave. I was a criminal when....

I was not serving anyone but myself.

My selfishness made you selfishness look amateurish.

I have a relatively comfortable life, loving parents. I've never gone hungry and never known sexual or physical violence or abuse.

And yet in your selfish life you dread and are not happy about it even though this is what you have chosen.

This isn't rocket science, Shadow. Give God a chance.

Don't read the Bible cover to cover yet. Read the books of John, Acts, and Romans. You'll get a gospel, a little history of the early believers, and a little doctrine (much of which will be applicable to your life).

It remains a challenge to explain how so many otherwise decent people, who often show concern for others in their own lives, could have become so indifferent and trapped...

There are no decent people, Shadow. There are just varying degrees of selfishness. I used to be very much selfish and am now a little less so. I recommend you try God.

There's 65 chapters in John, Acts, and Romans. If you read three chapters a day it will take just over a month to get through all three books. Every day this month read three chapters and spend at least one single minute (two or three if you like) talking to the God you don't think exists about your worries and ask Him to help you understand what it is you're reading. Once a week do something kind and selfless, maybe even venture over to the food bank and stock shelves or ladle soup at the local shelter for a couple of hours.

Just one month.

Would you pay one month to be rid of your angst?

Philippians 4:6-7 NIV
"Do not be anxious about anything, but in every situation, by prayer and petition, with thanksgiving, present your requests to God."​

Or don't.

You choose.

But remember: If there is a God there will be no blaming God for choices you and others of your mindset have made.

 

[Hazelelponi]

As an atheist I do not attribute this process to god but to man.

Nice to meet you Shadow...

Just a heads up - this process is 100% man, even for those of us who believe in God.

I don't attribute the negative events that lead to Jesus' return to be caused by God, rather they are caused by man following exactly what man wants to do...

At some point so many people will turn away from God, and the human condition (in largest part) becomes so depraved that God will remove His restraining Hand and let people have exactly what they want, and do exactly what they desire..

God is not cause - man is. God will simply at one point allow man to be all that man desires to be..

Just a heads up.

 

[Amittai]

Shadow, you are right, it is good that there are some of us wanting to carry the world on our shoulders.

Now who promised you - or me - or church members - a "rose garden"? Kenneth Copeland? Cardinal Re?

Maybe the deal ALWAYS WAS far deeper and more serious, all along.

I am crying, too. A lot.

 

[VCR-2000]

If God is there, I don't understand why he would allow his own people to create a revival instead of the world ending, either directly through his intervention or man's.

I don't want the world to end soon. I want to experience having a relationship, family, or getting married.

 

[VCR-2000]

Hi again Shadow! I'm sorry to hear that you suffered under a communist regime like this. Yes, communism is an evil, sick religion and ideology. It is not just an alternative economic model or political system. I have studied it somewhat and I know where its strengths and weaknesses lie and the underlying sources thereof.

The "end times" of capitalism are not necessarily what they appear to be. Capitalism in the west is in crisis, yes, but communism in China and Russia also experienced a crisis and morphed into more of a capitalist system in both countries out of sheer necessity. I strongly suspect (without specific evidence to point to) that communists in the west noticed that free market enterprise capitalism was thriving and doing very well and that they had no hope of directly attacking it and generating interest in a revolution and overthrow of the system. So they INFILTRATED the system and infiltrated both the environmental movement and the feminist movement in order to destabilize our western society. They also infiltrated the mainstream media and the universities. Once they were able to begin the process of corrupting and destabilizing these various foundational elements in our society (along with brainwashing the impressionable young adults concerning the disadvantages of capitalism vs. the advantages of socialism/communism), they were on track to succeed in their quest to destroy us. In fact, I strongly suspect that they infiltrated most of the major corporations and put their foot hard on the gas pedal to create runaway, extreme capitalism with the "growth at all costs" mentality. Multinational mega-corporations were the result and they continue to absorb smaller companies like parasitic amoebae. This, I suspect, was all by design to enable the public demonization of capitalism. It is a distorted, corrupted form of capitalism and is not true free enterprise anymore.

Here's a peek at what the communists of the west have been up to lately (and they don't know that we know). Why are climate change realists called 'science deniers'? | PSI Intl

And if they were able to succeed infiltrating and destabilizing society, I consider that the enemy has already won anyway.

 

[jasonMalloy1999]

If God is there, I don't understand why he would allow his own people to create a revival instead of the world ending, either directly through his intervention or man's.

I don't want the world to end soon. I want to experience having a relationship, family, or getting married.

no one knows the end jesus doesnt know either only the father knows