Liturgy in Orthodox Churches

[Via Cassian]

I do not know about liturgy in Orthodox churches. Any help in giving me an introductory "what-everyone-should-know" overview would be very much appreciated. Here are my questions:

1. I think I understand that the liturgy in Orthodox Churches whether Russian, Greek, or Serbian, for example, is the same. If that is true, is the liturgy the same across the Orthodox Churches because the liturgy has not changed?

2. If the liturgy has not changed, what has allowed or created the liturgical stability during the past 2,000 years?

3. If there have been changes and those changes have been adopted by all the Orthodox Churches, how does that happen?

4. Has the Orthodox Church had people who want to change the liturgy? If so, how have those "let's change the liturgy" voices been addressed?

Thanks for any insights and general information.
　

 

[E.C.]

Welcome to TAW!

I do not know about liturgy in Orthodox churches. Any help in giving me an introductory "what-everyone-should-know" overview would be very much appreciated. Here are my questions:

The popular one seems to be "12 Things I wish I'd Known" by Frederica Matthews-Green which can be read here: 12 Things I Wish I'd Known - Frederica.com

1. I think I understand that the liturgy in Orthodox Churches whether Russian, Greek, or Serbian, for example, is the same. If that is true, is the liturgy the same across the Orthodox Churches because the liturgy has not changed?

Yes. There are, however, small minute differences here and there. For example there is a spot early in the Liturgy in which most, if not all, Slavic Churches will sing the Beatitudes whereas the Greeks may sing a hymn to the Theotokos.

2. If the liturgy has not changed, what has allowed or created the liturgical stability during the past 2,000 years?

God's Grace.


These are the only ones that I can answer, so the rest are best left to the older and wiser.

 

[Via Cassian]

Thanks EC, great article about the liturgy. I enjoyed reading it and thank you for the answers.

From the article is appears the current liturgy dates back to St. Basil and St. John Chrysostom as the last changes. I know a little about them and I think I can imagine how their changes were adopted across the Church (my question 3).

With the current liturgy being from the fourth and early fifth century, that's a long-standing stability, making my question 4 of particular interest -- what happens now when someone or a group wants to make a change in the liturgy, does it happen, and if it does not happen, why is that? If it does not come up, I would really like to know what creates such stability.

Thanks again.

 

[Blackknight]

The first question you'd have to ask is why do they want to change it? Is it really necessary? Would changing it make the liturgy "better"? Trying to change things when they don't need to be changed is what leads to schism and fractures within the church.

As Orthodox Christians we are taught to humble ourselves and hold fast to the traditions as we have received them, just as St. Paul says. We don't change just for the sake of change.

The consistency of the Liturgy is one of the things that makes the Orthodox Church great, we worship the same way that our Fathers did over 1000 years ago.

 

[ArmyMatt]

As Orthodox Christians we are taught to humble ourselves and hold fast to the traditions as we have received them, just as St. Paul says. We don't change just for the sake of change.

this is true. this is the formula that works so why change?

 

[-Kyriaki-]

I just thought I'd add, there are a few minor changes - we pray for "those who travel by sea, land [and air]" now, which obviously at the time of Ss Basil and John would not have been possible, except perhaps for some very holy levitating Saints

The changeable hymns are obviously newer, because they reference Saints, and there have been a lot of Saints since the fourth century.

I agree with everyone else though - why change what isn't broken?

 

[Via Cassian]

Thank you all very much.

Recognizing that there have been slight revisions due to time, for example, I collected your fine comments regarding the stability of the EO liturgy and responses to voices for that might seek liturgical change:

• Stability is from God's Grace.
• We are taught to humble ourselves and hold fast to the traditions as we have received them, just as St. Paul says.
• We don't change just for the sake of change.
• Why change what isn't broken?
• This is the formula that works so why change?
• Why do they want to change it?
• Is it really necessary?
• Would changing it make the liturgy "better"?
• Trying to change things when they don't need to be changed is what leads to schism and fractures within the church.
• Consistency of the Liturgy is one of the things that makes the Orthodox Church great, we worship the same way that our Fathers did over 1000 years ago.
• Unlike RC where there is a magisterium, in Orthodoxy, to know what we believe, you must know what we worship. The totality of the Faith is preserved completely in our liturgical texts, hymns & praxis as we worship through the course of the liturgical calendar. It is the very vehicle which has preserved the faith unadultered under muslim oppression and the communist yoke.

I know it is difficult for me to fully appreciate the depth of your comments or their full application within the EO community, but to the extent I can get a general sense of the sources of that stability, you have opened my vision — thank you.

 

[HandmaidenOfGod]

Reminds me of an old joke:

Q: How many Orthodox Christians does it take to change a light bulb?

A: Why change?

 

[Via Cassian]

LOL, perfect illustration!

 

[buzuxi02]

The Orthodox Church has 4 divine liturgies. The standard liturgy is that of St John Chrysostom. The liturgy of St Basil the Geat is celebrated 10 times a year. The liturgy of St Mark is no longer used except possibly in Alexandria on his feast day. The oldest Liturgy is that of St James, the rite of Jerusalem. Its celebrated in Jerusalem on the first sunday after Christmas and sporadically in the other churches on the feastday of St James.

Unlike RC where there is a magisterium , In Orthodoxy, to know what we believe, you must know what we worship. The totality of the Faith is preserved completely in our liturgical texts, hymns & praxis as we worship through the course of the liturgical calendar.. It is the very vehicle which has preserved the faith unadultered under muslim oppression and the communist yoke.

 

[MariaRegina]

It is interesting to note that during and after Vatican II, the Melkites had a profound influence on the development of the Novus Ordo of the Roman Catholic Church.

The Novus Ordo had many innovations which were actually returns to ancient Eastern Christian practices: (1) Processions carrying the Gospel book, (2) litanies, (3) concelebrated Divine Liturgies, and (4) allowing the laity to receive under both species when receiving Holy Communion.

It is sad that the Novus Ordo also did not include the Trisagion Hymn which was removed from the original Gregorian Mass of Pope St. Gregory the Great around 800 A.D. It would have been better if the Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom was introduced in place of the Novus Ordo. Then we all would have been celebrating the same Divine Liturgy.

For more information, contact the Melkites.

p.s. The Melkite Greek Catholic Theologians also heavily influenced the development and final product of the CCC.

 

[TheCunctator]

Reminds me of an old joke:

Q: How many Orthodox Christians does it take to change a light bulb?

A: Why change?

I love that.

Don't change the light bulb until it's totally out.

 

[Via Cassian]

The Orthodox Church has 4 divine liturgies. The standard liturgy is that of St John Chrysostom. The liturgy of St Basil the Geat is celebrated 10 times a year. The liturgy of St Mark is no longer used except possibly in Alexandria on his feast day. The oldest Liturgy is that of St James, the rite of Jerusalem. Its celebrated in Jerusalem on the first sunday after Christmas and sporadically in the other churches on the feastday of St James.

Unlike RC where there is a magisterium , In Orthodoxy, to know what we believe, you must know what we worship. The totality of the Faith is preserved completely in our liturgical texts, hymns & praxis as we worship through the course of the liturgical calendar.. It is the very vehicle which has preserved the faith unadultered under muslim oppression and the communist yoke.

Thank you, that is helpful. I added your comment to my list above in this thread.

 

[Via Cassian]

It is interesting to note that during and after Vatican II, the Melkites had a profound influence on the development of the Novus Ordo of the Roman Catholic Church.

The Novus Ordo had many innovations which were actually returns to ancient Eastern Christian practices: (1) Processions carrying the Gospel book, (2) litanies, (3) concelebrated Divine Liturgies, and (4) allowing the laity to receive under both species when receiving Holy Communion.

It is sad that the Novus Ordo also did not include the Trisagion Hymn which was removed from the original Gregorian Mass of Pope St. Gregory the Great around 800 A.D. It would have been better if the Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom was introduced in place of the Novus Ordo. Then we all would have been celebrating the same Divine Liturgy.

For more information, contact the Melkites.

p.s. The Melkite Greek Catholic Theologians also heavily influenced the development and final product of the CCC.

Thanks, that's good to know and very interesting.