Liturgical Prayers

[Wigglesworth]

And I'll add...after attending Father Rick's church...this Vineyard girl got to experience a liturgical service....It was really, um..interesting... I kept losing my place and getting confused....but there were these NEAT little pull-out benches and that made it better!

If you sit in the pew instead of on the kneeler, you will be facing the front of the sanctuary instead of the back. That will make it much easier to follow along.

 

[womanofgodwcci]

Do any of you use any type of liturgical prayers in your private devotions or even in church? Even if you just pray the psalms or other parts of scripture?

I only pray the scriptures. I research for the ones I need for whatever I am dealing with or need answers on and pray them to God. He said to put Him in remembrance and that is what I do. I find that if I meditate first on those scriptures that once I do pray them, it is then brought to fruition in this physical realm. It is amazing.

 

[Wigglesworth]

There is unity in liturgy. It is encouraging to know that people all over the country are praying the same prayer as I am. In Pentecostalese, that's known as standing in agreement in prayer.

I like the Episcopal Book of Common Prayer, the prayer book of the PNCC, and a Sunday Missal I have from the RCC. Reading liturgical prayers reminds us about things to pray for that I often don't think about.

Praying in tongues is good too.

 

[womanofgodwcci]

I'd rather pray the word then depend on my own mind and brain and end up praying in selfishness or praying pridefully.

 

[Father Rick]

If you sit in the pew instead of on the kneeler, you will be facing the front of the sanctuary instead of the back. That will make it much easier to follow along.

LOL... I laughed 'til it hurt...

 

[SpiritPsalmist]

Yes, liturgical prayers are the answer to everything. But they must be done just right. You know, liturgically.


If you don't, the demons will get you. If you don't do just the right thing then you blew it and oh my god, your soul is at risk.

For God's sake don't try this at home. You are not a professional, please, oh please don't try this prayer thing at home. Oh my God, what if you should get a word wrong? You could end up in hell with all the other speach challenged demons.

OH I'm so scared!!!!!

How can I stop this..........how can I stop this?

Does the bible say I should be so upset?

Asaph

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[womanofgodwcci]

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[Asaph]

Show me one scripture that instructs anyone in the NT to perform chants of liturgical Prayers, Psalms, or Scriptures.

Rick and Quaffer, those were some pretty high sounding arguements, but I have yet to see a scripture that commands directly, or even indirectly for that matter, the use of liturgy.

Asaph

 

[SpiritPsalmist]

Show me one scripture that instructs anyone in the NT to perform chants of liturgical Prayers, Psalms, or Scriptures.

Rick and Quaffer, those were some pretty high sounding arguements, but I have yet to see a scripture that commands directly, or even indirectly for that matter, the use of liturgy.

Asaph

Asaph, I don't understand why you take everything WAY into left field Why don't you show me a scripture that commands directly, or even indirectly for that matter, the use of the church bathroom...but you do it don't you?

 

[Father Rick]

Show me one scripture that instructs anyone in the NT to perform chants of liturgical Prayers, Psalms, or Scriptures.

Rick and Quaffer, those were some pretty high sounding arguements, but I have yet to see a scripture that commands directly, or even indirectly for that matter, the use of liturgy.

Asaph

[font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]Colossians 3 Read This Chapter[/font][font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]3:16 Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord. [/font]

 

[Father Rick]

1 Corinthians 11:23-34 23 For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, That the Lord Jesus the same night in which he was betrayed took bread: 24 And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in F38 remembrance of me. 25 After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me. 26 For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord's death till he come.

Here Paul quotes Jesus' teaching to His disciples that they were to 'do this' meaning remember/rehearse the Last Supper. The Last Supper, as you probably are aware was Passover (all liturgy). This passage is actually EXACTLY the liturgy used to consecrate the elements for Communion.

Acts 13:14-41 14 But when they departed from Perga, they came to Antioch in Pisidia, and went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and sat down. 15 And after the reading of the law and the prophets the rulers of the synagogue sent unto them, saying, Ye men and brethren, if ye have any word of exhortation for the people, say on. 16 Then Paul stood up, and beckoning with his hand said, Men of Israel, and ye that fear God, give audience.

Here we see the apostles participating in the liturgy of the Jewish synagogue-- it is this liturgy that the liturgy of the church is built upon. This was not a unique occurrence, as another passage shows that for 3 months Paul worshipped in a particular synagogue while teaching Christ.

Acts 19:8-12 8 And he went into the synagogue, and spake boldly for the space of three months, disputing and persuading the things concerning the kingdom of God.

Now Asaph, I have shown you New Testament examples where believers worshipped in a liturgical fashion (in a synagogue, which means they followed the prayers, etc. in a synagogue),-- Commands to do something specific repeated "this do in remembrance of me",-- and a command to teach one another with 'psalms and hymns' (the book of Psalms is divided into 2 parts, Psalms and Hymns-- the psalms are prayed corporately and the hymns are sung responsorially).

Can you show ANY scriptural evidence that using liturgy is wrong?

 

[Asaph]

[font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]Colossians 3 Read This Chapter[/font][font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]3:16 Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord. [/font]

I do not see the command to use repetitive chants there at all. Try again.

Asaph

 

[Asaph]

Here Paul quotes Jesus' teaching to His disciples that they were to 'do this' meaning remember/rehearse the Last Supper. The Last Supper, as you probably are aware was Passover (all liturgy). This passage is actually EXACTLY the liturgy used to consecrate the elements for Communion.

Here we see the apostles participating in the liturgy of the Jewish synagogue-- it is this liturgy that the liturgy of the church is built upon.

Not even so Rick. Because they went where the unsaved were you are taking that to mean they endorced the things of the unsaved? You have to know I will take that logic and ask you why you are not doing so many pagan things you willl never use that logic again.

Let me ask you this. If Paul was endorcing these things, why in the world did they try to stone him to death so often? It seems to me that Paul had one particular knack for ticking off the legalists of his day.

You are reading so much into these scriptures I am actually offended that you presumed them to answer my honest and direct question.

Asaph

 

[Father Rick]

I do not see the command to use repetitive chants there at all. Try again.

Asaph

I was editting my last post to explain as you wrote this.

The book of Psalms was divided into 2 parts "psalms" and 'hymns'. Psalms were sung corporately, hymns were sung responsorially.

If you don't agree with that... just look at Psalm 136
Psalms 136:1-9 1 O give thanks unto the LORD; for he is good:
for his mercy endureth for ever.
2 O give thanks unto the God of gods:
for his mercy endureth for ever.
3 O give thanks to the Lord of lords:
for his mercy endureth for ever.
4 To him who alone doeth great wonders:
for his mercy endureth for ever.
5 To him that by wisdom made the heavens:
for his mercy endureth for ever.
6 To him that stretched out the earth above the waters:
for his mercy endureth for ever.
7 To him that made great lights:
for his mercy endureth for ever:
8 The sun to rule F366 by day:
for his mercy endureth for ever:
9 The moon and stars to rule by night:
for his mercy endureth for ever.

It should be obvious this Psalm was sung responsorially (as many were). This was the pattern used by the early church.

 

[Father Rick]

Not even so Rick. Because they went where the unsaved were you are taking that to mean they endorced the things of the unsaved? You have to know I will take that logic and ask you why you are not doing so many pagan things you willl never use that logic again.

Let me ask you this. If Paul was endorcing these things, why in the world did they try to stone him to death so often? It seems to me that Paul had one particular knack for ticking off the legalists of his day.

You are reading so much into these scriptures I am actually offended that you presumed them to answer my honest and direct question.

Asaph

Paul went into the temple to worship (for his own good, not the peoples)-- at the end of a Nazarite vow. (Remember, he cut his hair at the time).



Again, I ask you the question-- show me ANYTHING in the scriptures that say it is wrong to use liturgy. You can't do it, 'cause it's just not there.

 

[Asaph]

Paul went into the temple to worship (for his own good, not the peoples)-- at the end of a Nazarite vow. (Remember, he cut his hair at the time).



Again, I ask you the question-- show me ANYTHING in the scriptures that say it is wrong to use liturgy. You can't do it, 'cause it's just not there.

My point is now made.

Now you and Quaffer both have resorted to craft to try and support your unscriptural positions. You have not been able to answer my challenge, so you try and redirect the simple, and to the point question, I proposed.

Asaph

 

[Father Rick]

My point is now made.

Now you and Quaffer both have resorted to craft to try and support your unscriptural positions. You have not been able to answer my challenge, so you try and redirect the simple, and to the point question, I proposed.

Asaph

I have given you scriptural examples of liturgy being used.

Jesus, Himself, followed liturgy in instituting 'the Lord's Supper' (where do you think the bread and wine came from? a late night snack) and then He told His disciples to follow suit.

Paul both followed liturgy when worshipping with the Jews and on at least one occurrence when worshipping alone.

Paul told the church to teach one another 'with psalms and hymns'-- the hymns here being responsorial songs/chants. Even if you don't agree with some of the book of Psalms being considered the 'hymns' spoken of here by Paul, you must accept that some of them (such as Psalms 136 I listed above) are clearly written as repetitive 'call and response'. So just following scripture itself one finds oneself using/quoting/reading liturgical psalms.

So we have examples of the use of liturgy being at least acceptable ( I would daresay since Jesus said do so, that some liturgy could even be considered mandatory).

You have NOTHING to support your view, other than a personal opinion that you don't like something. That is why I asked for ANY support you have for your position.

 

[Father Rick]

Asaph...

What I find REALLY funny about this whole debate is that I just looked up the word "liturgy" in the dictionary.

Main Entry: lit·ur·gy
Pronunciation: 'li-t&r-jE
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural -gies
Etymology: Late Latin liturgia, from Greek leitourgia public service, from Greek (Attic) leïton public building (from Greek laos -- Attic leOs -- people) + -ourgia -urgy
1 often capitalized : a eucharistic rite
2 : a rite or body of rites prescribed for public worship
3 : a customary repertoire of ideas, phrases, or observances

Quite simply, liturgy means "public worship".

Everything else is how formal that public worship is.

 

[SpiritPsalmist]

My point is now made.

Not really. I'm still trying to figure out your point.

Now you and Quaffer both have resorted to craft to try and support your unscriptural positions. You have not been able to answer my challenge, so you try and redirect the simple, and to the point question, I proposed.

Asaph

Asaph, the OP only asked "who" did use liturgy and you come in swinging insults. I could answer your question but because I don't feel confident that you would actually read what I write and would only redirect the simple and to the point answer to your question, I'm not going to waste my time.

And I'd appreciate it very much that you NEVER accuse me of lying again. . .thats what "craft" is eluding to.

I don't give a rip whether you think liturgy is good or not. God appreciates any heart-felt praise given to Him. It has nothing whatsoever to do with you. Just remember though...the next time the preacher asks the congregation to read aloud the scripture....that's liturgy. Also, the next time you sing a song that is scripture....that's liturgy. So be careful Asaph, you might accidently do something you think you're not doing that you know nothing about.

 

[Asaph]

Asaph...

What I find REALLY funny about this whole debate is that I just looked up the word "liturgy" in the dictionary.
Quite simply, liturgy means "public worship".

Everything else is how formal that public worship is.

Yes, and if there were even one person who actually thought that was the meaning of the word prior to you posting this, I would not have believed them and neither would anyone else. (You included.....come on....admit it. )

Here is what the word has come to mean in common usage:

1 often capitalized : a eucharistic rite
2 : a rite or body of rites prescribed for public worship
3 : a customary repertoire of ideas, phrases, or observances

That's my point. To be honest Rick, of all the "liturgically inclined" of the old religions, you are by far the most God sensitive I have come in contact with.

I'm still going to argue with you about the "liturgical" though. (Not however in the "public worship" sense. )

Asaph