Liturgical Prayers

[Asaph]

Asaph, the OP only asked "who" did use liturgy and you come in swinging insults. I could answer your question but because I don't feel confident that you would actually read what I write and would only redirect the simple and to the point answer to your question, I'm not going to waste my time.

And I'd appreciate it very much that you NEVER accuse me of lying again. . .thats what "craft" is eluding to.

I don't give a rip whether you think liturgy is good or not. God appreciates any heart-felt praise given to Him. It has nothing whatsoever to do with you. Just remember though...the next time the preacher asks the congregation to read aloud the scripture....that's liturgy. Also, the next time you sing a song that is scripture....that's liturgy. So be careful Asaph, you might accidently do something that you know nothing about.

You are out of bounds. I never once accused you of lying, and I never insulted anybody.

Craft is a technical term that has to do with the art of debate.

You are wrong on all points and you should apologize.

Asaph

 

[SpiritPsalmist]

Yes, and if there were even one person who actually thought that was the meaning of the word prior to you posting this, I would not have believed them and neither would anyone else. (You included.....come on....admit it. )

Here is what the word has come to mean in common usage:

1 often capitalized : a eucharistic rite
2 : a rite or body of rites prescribed for public worship
3 : a customary repertoire of ideas, phrases, or observances

That's my point. To be honest Rick, of all the "liturgically inclined" of the old religions, you are by far the most God sensitive I have come in contact with.

I'm still going to argue with you about the "liturgical" though. (Not however in the "public worship" sense. )

Asaph

Just because I don't know what the real meaning of a word is does not mean that I should remain ignorant

 

[SpiritPsalmist]

You are out of bounds. I never once accused you of lying, and I never insulted anybody.

Craft is a technical term that has to do with the art of debate.

You are wrong on all points and you should apologize.

Asaph

Your exact words were "you resorted to craft" In my estimation of your comment you said I resorted to "sneaking wording" (lying) to make my point.

This post here

Yes, liturgical prayers are the answer to everything. But they must be done just right. You know, liturgically.


If you don't, the demons will get you. If you don't do just the right thing then you blew it and oh my god, your soul is at risk.

For God's sake don't try this at home. You are not a professional, please, oh please don't try this prayer thing at home. Oh my God, what if you should get a word wrong? You could end up in hell with all the other speach challenged demons.

OH I'm so scared!!!!!

How can I stop this..........how can I stop this?

Does the bible say I should be so upset?

Asaph

appears to me to be poking fun at those who do liturgy.

 

[Asaph]

Your exact words were "you resorted to craft" In my estimation of your comment you said I resorted to "sneaking wording" (lying) to make my point.

Well, then you were wrong weren't you.

Asaph

 

[SpiritPsalmist]

If I'm wrong in my estimation of your words, then could you possibly be wrong in your estimation of what Rick and I have said regarding liturgy?

 

[Asaph]

If I'm wrong in my estimation of your words, then could you possibly be wrong in your estimation of what Rick and I have said regarding liturgy?

You being wrong in what I meant by a word I typed has not one thing to do with the other. Except that you have now expressly falsely accused me and I never did one such thing to you.

But no problem at all.

Asaph

 

[SpiritPsalmist]

Sorry for the derail all

Anyway, as far as liturgy goes it is still something I am getting use to. When we do liturgy I purposefully put my mind on the words that are being said...the adoration and exulting of God and His holiness and majesty.

It is my opinion that every church has a form of liturgy they just don't give it that name. In my wild Penticostal church liturgy was in the praise and worship songs that we did over and over and over. Liturgy was having the congregation stand and read the word aloud together. Just with it being a Penticostal church they don't call it liturgy...they call it praise, worship, and reading the word. To me it's just termonology. I know that not everyone see's it the same way, but thats how I'm seeing it at this point in time and I know it's where God has me for now.

 

[Father Rick]

Yes, and if there were even one person who actually thought that was the meaning of the word prior to you posting this, I would not have believed them and neither would anyone else. (You included.....come on....admit it. )

Here is what the word has come to mean in common usage:

1 often capitalized : a eucharistic rite
2 : a rite or body of rites prescribed for public worship
3 : a customary repertoire of ideas, phrases, or observances

That's my point. To be honest Rick, of all the "liturgically inclined" of the old religions, you are by far the most God sensitive I have come in contact with.

I'm still going to argue with you about the "liturgical" though. (Not however in the "public worship" sense. )

Asaph

So your church uses absolutely no form of liturgy whatsoever?

Funny, I didn't know you were a Quaker-- where every one just sits around waiting for God to speak to someone and then that person gets up and leads spontaneously with no one preparing anything whatsoever for church.

Or does your church actually have a liturgy, even though it is not written down-- such as opening the service with prayer, singing songs/hymns, collecting an offering, a sermon, then closing with prayer/altar ministry?

If your church follows the same basic pattern each week, then by definition that is a liturgy: "a customary repertoire of ideas, phrases or observances".

Does your church have familiar songs that are sung on a regular basis-- either projected on a screen so the congregation can read the words or even in a hymn book? Then that is liturgy.

Do you have a particular book you read from each week (i.e. the Bible)? Then that is liturgy.

Do you celebrate communion on a regular basis? If so, do you normally read one of the passages from scripture about communion-- such as when Jesus said "This is my body broken for you"... "This is the New Covenant in my blood..."-- as an explanation of what you are doing? Then that is liturgy.



Now, once again I ask you-- can you show ANY Scripture to show that liturgy is wrong? I gave you several examples as you requested. You have not refuted any of them, rather just accusing Quaff and I of 'craft' (whatever you mean by that) as an excuse for not answering the question. Can you either provide support for your argument of just admit that you don't have any support for your opinion --that it's just an opinion--and leave it at that?

 

[Trish1947]

I'm not totally against liturgy. I do believe to a certain extent as Father Rick said, most churches perform some sort of litugy. I think where the problem arises with it, because it is repetitive, if it's allowed to lose meaning from the heart. Then it's just repetitive words. If you sing, (I'll date myself now) "Just As I Am." for example, this is an oldie, and extreamly well worn. But when they sing that in church as often as they do, the words mean just as much today, to me, and I concentrate on the words and hold those words dear to my heart. I don't think a born again person that is Christ centered can consider meaningful words, repeated, if they speak from your very own heart, wrong.

I believe that Jesus referring to repetition prayers, had no heart felt value to the Pharasees, it had just become tradition to them. Their hearts had no interest.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

As a Presbyterian elder, I get to take church services when the minister is away. I use the Worshipbook, which is the Presbyterian version of the Book of Common Prayer. I find that it is great to use, and I am able to keep the services within the appropriate time that the congregation is happy with.

Now bearing in mind that I have a Pentecostal background, it seems strange that I would use a liturgy when I take services when I have the choice to do things the way I want. In my experience, God has done all He has wanted to do through the liturgical service that I run.

I was involved with the Anglican church for about 4 years, straight after I left the Pentecostal church. I loved the liturgy. it was so expressive, and reflected how I felt toward God.

I have come to the conclusion that God's doesn't care about whether we use a liturgy or not. It is our attitude to Christ that matters most. When I went up to be confirmed (at the age of 29), the choir was singing full bore. I felt zapped by the Holy Spirit as I walked between them toward the bishop.

I have experienced a mixture of different types of church service, and I have found that God has met me in all of them.

I don't think that God cares how we worship Him, as long as we do!

 

[Asaph]

So your church uses absolutely no form of liturgy whatsoever?

Funny, I didn't know you were a Quaker-- where every one just sits around waiting for God to speak to someone and then that person gets up and leads spontaneously with no one preparing anything whatsoever for church.

Or does your church actually have a liturgy, even though it is not written down-- such as opening the service with prayer, singing songs/hymns, collecting an offering, a sermon, then closing with prayer/altar ministry?

If your church follows the same basic pattern each week, then by definition that is a liturgy: "a customary repertoire of ideas, phrases or observances".

Does your church have familiar songs that are sung on a regular basis-- either projected on a screen so the congregation can read the words or even in a hymn book? Then that is liturgy.

Do you have a particular book you read from each week (i.e. the Bible)? Then that is liturgy.

Do you celebrate communion on a regular basis? If so, do you normally read one of the passages from scripture about communion-- such as when Jesus said "This is my body broken for you"... "This is the New Covenant in my blood..."-- as an explanation of what you are doing? Then that is liturgy.



Now, once again I ask you-- can you show ANY Scripture to show that liturgy is wrong? I gave you several examples as you requested. You have not refuted any of them, rather just accusing Quaff and I of 'craft' (whatever you mean by that) as an excuse for not answering the question. Can you either provide support for your argument of just admit that you don't have any support for your opinion --that it's just an opinion--and leave it at that?

Once again I am going to state the fact that you did NOT provide even one scripture that commands liturgy as part of the worship of God. Not one. There does not exist one in all of scripture.

Matt 6:5-8
5 "And when you pray, you shall not be like the hypocrites. For they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the corners of the streets, that they may be seen by men. Assuredly, I say to you, they have their reward. 6 But you, when you pray, go into your room, and when you have shut your door, pray to your Father who is in the secret place; and your Father who sees in secret will reward you openly. 7 And when you pray, do not use vain repetitions as the heathen do. For they think that they will be heard for their many words. 8 Therefore do not be like them. For your Father knows the things you have need of before you ask Him.
NKJV

Mark 13:9-11
9 But watch out for yourselves, for they will deliver you up to councils, and you will be beaten in the synagogues. You will be brought before rulers and kings for My sake, for a testimony to them. 10 And the gospel must first be preached to all the nations. 11 But when they arrest you and deliver you up, do not worry beforehand, or premeditate what you will speak. But whatever is given you in that hour, speak that; for it is not you who speak, but the Holy Spirit.
NKJV

Liturgy in all it's definitions except the original of meaning "public worship" should be recognized for what it is, a substitute for the moving of the sovreign Lord in it's worst forms, and a substitute for faith that God will move in those places where the schedule of a church's service has become written in stone even in those that are not following some thousand year old tradition.

Perhaps the Quakers were on to something. I had forgotten that was how they did things. What a novel idea, just let God be in charge.

Asaph

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Once again I am going to state the fact that you did NOT provide even one scripture that commands liturgy as part of the worship of God. Not one. There does not exist one in all of scripture.

There isn't one that expressly forbids it either.

Matt 6:5-8
5 "And when you pray, you shall not be like the hypocrites. For they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the corners of the streets, that they may be seen by men. Assuredly, I say to you, they have their reward. 6 But you, when you pray, go into your room, and when you have shut your door, pray to your Father who is in the secret place; and your Father who sees in secret will reward you openly. 7 And when you pray, do not use vain repetitions as the heathen do. For they think that they will be heard for their many words. 8 Therefore do not be like them. For your Father knows the things you have need of before you ask Him.
NKJV

This scripture does not speak about using a written liturgy in church. The fact that you use this scripture shows me that you have difficulty understanding this scripture passage and also the use of the liturgy.

The scripture is talking about personal prayer and the need to pray secretly, not being super spiritual in front of others.

A lot of Pentecostals who love demonstrating their spirituality in front of others need to take good notice of the passage.

Mark 13:9-11
9 But watch out for yourselves, for they will deliver you up to councils, and you will be beaten in the synagogues. You will be brought before rulers and kings for My sake, for a testimony to them. 10 And the gospel must first be preached to all the nations. 11 But when they arrest you and deliver you up, do not worry beforehand, or premeditate what you will speak. But whatever is given you in that hour, speak that; for it is not you who speak, but the Holy Spirit.
NKJV

This has absolutely nothing to do with liturgy in church services! You have wrested this scripture right out of its natural context! Sorry brother, you struck out here! Better luck next time.

Liturgy in all it's definitions except the original of meaning "public worship" should be recognized for what it is, a substitute for the moving of the sovreign Lord in it's worst forms, and a substitute for faith that God will move in those places where the schedule of a church's service has become written in stone even in those that are not following some thousand year old tradition.

Perhaps the Quakers were on to something. I had forgotten that was how they did things. What a novel idea, just let God be in charge.

Asaph

After 30 odd years of being involved in different types of churches, I have discovered that they all have an order of service of some kind or another. In fact, they have a liturgy whether it is written or unwritten.

Every Sunday when Pentecostals come to Communion, don't they quote the same Communion scripture where it describes the Lord's supper. Every time they have communion they quote the same scripture. Sunday after Sunday. Aw Gee... that's a liturgy...

Actually every church does exactly the same thing during the communion part of the service. Did you know that? Communion itself is a ritual.

Hey! Everytime you give a reading in church, or pick up and sing out of a hymn book or off the OHP, you are being liturgic!

I just heard of a valued sister in the Lord being zapped by the Holy Spirit in a very deep way right in the middle of Father Rick's Anglican church service. Hey! The Holy Spirit should not have been able to move like that in a liturgical service! But He did. What does that say to you old chappie?

Yoiu have to look at it in a different way. What is a person's attitude to Christ when going through the liturgy? If the attitude is right, there is no hindrance to the Spirit.

But even in a 'free' Pentecostal services, if people haven't got the right attitude to Christ, the Holy Spirit can't move there. What does that tell you?

I don't think that God gives two owl hoots about how we worship Him in our services. Man looks on the outward appearance, but God looks upon ....where brother? whether we are quoting a liturgy or not? No. He is looking on the heart!

So, brother, don't take part in the communion service because that has too much liturgy in it!
Throw away your hymn book, because you are singing other men's words.

I expect you to compose your songs of praise as you sing them.
Make up your own communion service wording every Sunday, but don't write it down beforehand because that will be a liturgy.
Don't do any preparation if you are preaching a sermon, just stand up there and speak!

(I think that I am being cheeky. Give that Oscar a slap!)

But seriously, does it really matter, as long as your heart is right when you are worshiping God?

What do you think?

 

[SpiritPsalmist]

Once again I am going to state the fact that you did NOT provide even one scripture that commands liturgy as part of the worship of God. Not one. There does not exist one in all of scripture.

Who but you said anything about being commanded to do liturgy? What if the OP had asked "Do any of you use any type of worship and praise in your private devotions or even in church? Even if you just sing psalms or other parts of scripture?" Would you still be demanding that we prove it's demanded of us? Only YOU said anything about commandment.

And it again appears that you have not througly read what was written. It does not matter what people today think "liturgy" means. People today think "gay" means homosexual.

Before I became involved in a congregation that utilizes liturgy I use to think it was "just" pre-arrainged prayers but I have since changed my opinion. The liturgy that I have seen is scripture. . .taken directly and exactly out of scripture. And extremely contrary to your statement it has NOT replaced my faith. Perhaps when you attended a church that did liturgy you replaced your faith with it but that is not what has happened with me. And the last time I read the scripture God said, no one but He knew my heart

To me, the liturgy I have seen and heard is no different than the song service and the sermon and so forth as Rick outlined and is liturgy whether the people call it that or not.

Matt 6:5-8
5 "And when you pray, you shall not be like the hypocrites. For they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the corners of the streets, that they may be seen by men. Assuredly, I say to you, they have their reward. 6 But you, when you pray, go into your room, and when you have shut your door, pray to your Father who is in the secret place; and your Father who sees in secret will reward you openly. 7 And when you pray, do not use vain repetitions as the heathen do. For they think that they will be heard for their many words. 8 Therefore do not be like them. For your Father knows the things you have need of before you ask Him.
NKJV

So are you now saying that praying scripture is vain repetition? Is only YOUR definition of things ligitimate Asaph. What about Collossians 3:16 "Let the word of christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord" Psalms...Hymns...Spiritual songs....hmmmmmm! Liturgy! I know, according to your definition I'm wrong

Mark 13:9-11
9 But watch out for yourselves, for they will deliver you up to councils, and you will be beaten in the synagogues. You will be brought before rulers and kings for My sake, for a testimony to them. 10 And the gospel must first be preached to all the nations. 11 But when they arrest you and deliver you up, do not worry beforehand, or premeditate what you will speak. But whatever is given you in that hour, speak that; for it is not you who speak, but the Holy Spirit.
NKJV

This scripture has nothing whatsoever to do with private prayer time or a church service.

Liturgy in all it's definitions except the original of meaning "public worship" should be recognized for what it is, a substitute for the moving of the sovreign Lord in it's worst forms, and a substitute for faith that God will move in those places where the schedule of a church's service has become written in stone even in those that are not following some thousand year old tradition.

I don't believe that is God's view

 

[Zacharias]

2 Corinthians 9:12 For the ministry of this service [leitourgia] is not only fully supplying the needs of the saints, but is also overflowing through many thanksgivings to God. (NASB)

Hebrews 6:8 But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry [leitourgia], by as much as He is also the mediator of a better covenant, which has been enacted on better promises. (NASB)

In the Bible we translate the Greek word "leitourgia" [liturgy] as service. Therefore liturgy is in the Bible, however we translate it as "service" or "ministry".

 

[Father Rick]

Freak...
Thanks for pointing me in the right direction for research here. I was really tired yesterday, and it didn't even occur to me to go to the Greek.

To put the scripture Freak listed in context :

10 Now He who supplies seed R334 to the sower and bread for food will supply and multiply your seed for sowing and increase R335 the harvest of your righteousness; 11 you will be enriched R336 in everything for all liberality, which through us is producing thanksgiving R337 to God. 12 For the ministry of this service (liturgy) is not only fully supplying the R338 needs of the saints, F69 but is also overflowing through R339 many thanksgivings to God. 13 Because of the proof given by this ministry, R340 they will glorify R341 God for your obedience to your confession R342 of the gospel R343 of Christ and for the liberality of your contribution F70 to them and to all, 14 while they also, by prayer on your behalf, yearn for you because of the surpassing grace of God in you. 15 Thanks R344 be to God for His indescribable gift! R345

A few other passages in the NT, where the greek "leitourgia", is used:

[font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]Php 2:17[/font] [font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]Yea, and if I be offered upon the sacrifice and service of your faith, I joy, and rejoice with you all.[/font]

[font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]Php 2:30[/font] [font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]Because for the work of Christ he was nigh unto death, not regarding his life, to supply your lack of service toward me.[/font]

[font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]Heb 8:6[/font] [font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises. [/font]

[font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]Heb 9:21[/font] [font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]Moreover he sprinkled with blood both the tabernacle, and all the vessels of the ministry. [/font]

In each of these passages, the highlighted word is "leitourgia" or "liturgy". I think it is especially interesting that Hebrews 8:6 states that Christ has obtained 'a more excellent liturgy'...

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

2 Corinthians 9:12 For the ministry of this service [leitourgia] is not only fully supplying the needs of the saints, but is also overflowing through many thanksgivings to God. (NASB)

Hebrews 6:8 But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry [leitourgia], by as much as He is also the mediator of a better covenant, which has been enacted on better promises. (NASB)

In the Bible we translate the Greek word "leitourgia" [liturgy] as service. Therefore liturgy is in the Bible, however we translate it as "service" or "ministry".

As the mathematicians say:

Q.E.D.!

 

[womanofgodwcci]

Is all that matters, because it is all that God is concerned with because His word is final authority. Or should be. God wants us to know His word, pray His word, worship Him in spirit and in truth WITH His word and obey His commandments...WHICH AGAIN is His word. When one prophecies, they don't prophecy of their own accord (at least they shouldn't), their prophecy should still line up with God's word. That is the measuring stick of deception, IS IT THE WORD?

Liturgy is the prescribed form or set of forms for public religious worship. What is wrong with having order to God and His word for how we are to worship Him? There is an order for these sacraments in practically every single church. The Protestant sacraments are baptism and the Lord's Supper; in the Roman Catholic Church and the Eastern Orthodox Church there are seven traditional rites accepted as instituted by Jesus: baptism and confirmation and Holy Eucharist and penance and holy orders and matrimony and extreme unction. Liturgy is about things being done decently and IN ORDER. It does not replace your faith, it enhances it. Liturgy gives it the structure needed so that God is magnified and glorified. If you've had a bad experience, don't run it down the entire board, that was just YOUR EXPERIENCE. This is about service to God. This is about obedience to God. This is about worshipping and exalting God.

Once you move self out of the way, this is evident.

 

[Asaph]

In the Bible we translate the Greek word "leitourgia" [liturgy] as service. Therefore liturgy is in the Bible, however we translate it as "service" or "ministry".

Perfect. In that definition, it is everything we are to be.

It is who we are, not what we do.

Asaph