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Literal vs figurative

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FutureAndAHope

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The goal of the bible has always been to document histories of interactions with God. So that new generations of people have the ability to look back on past stories and use these interactions to guide their current search for God. In doing so some stories which are obviously not true based upon modern day reasoning (such as the sun being created after light) have come to be included in the bible because people did not know any better. This does not mean that all histories recorded are ALL incorrect, just some. Why do I say just some? Well I believe that most stories recorded in the bible are true, and should be taken literally. I also have seen God at work in my life and the life of others in miraculous ways. These undenyable miracles have come from following principles in the bible; so I know that the bible works. That it is a valid expression of God's will in the earth.
 
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childofGod31

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The Bible says that we have the mind of Christ (in the Holy Spirit). The Holy Spirit inside of us is our teacher. He teaches us the truths that are not obvious to the "naked" eye (to the person who does not have the Holy Spirit, or to the person to whom the Holy Spirit has not revealed something yet).

JOH 14:26 But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.
1CO 2:16 "For who has known the mind of the Lord that he may instruct him?" But we have the mind of Christ.


The Bible is difficult to understand. And there are many ways to interpret it. And it's hard to know which way would be the truth. So we all really need Holy Spirit's help.

1CO 2:14 The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.


I just read and try to judge by the context to see what is literal and what is figurative. And sometimes I can't tell. And sometimes I feel that something is one way or the other. And sometimes, it could be both (literal for that group of people, and figurative for us, serving as a shadow of our reality).

It says that the Gospel is foolishness to the "wise" of this world and that God through the foolishness of the Gospel chose to save people. It says that the Gospel has the power to save those who believe it. It says that God wanted to frustrate the wisdom of this world because the fact is: people by their own wisdom did not find God. So you can't understand the Bible by the standards of worldly wisdom. You have to go by what your heart (through the Holy Spirit) tells you. And God is wise enough to reveal the truth to His own whenever they need it.

1CO 1:21 * For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe.
22 Jews demand miraculous signs and Greeks look for wisdom,
23 but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles,
24 but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.
25 For the foolishness of God is wiser than man's wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than man's strength.


1CO 1:27 But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong.
28 He chose the lowly things of this world and the despised things - and the things that are not - to nullify the things that are,
29 so that no one may boast before him.
 
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Do you take every word of the Bible as literal truth? If you do how do you account for the things that make no scientific or even logical sense?

If not then on what basis can you say that one section is literal (the resurrection for example) and another is not?

The Bible is literal, but also spiritual, or symbolic, and such metaphors are not understood by the flesh, but only by the Spirit.

As for matters which "make no sense", anyone can cut up and contort meanings of a book and try and set up strawman arguments to knock down. That gives them pleasure because it makes them feel smarter for it, or as if they have "won" something.

But strawman arguments win no one anything.

As for explaining everything in Scripture and how it works: that is hard to do when people already have their mind set that they already know it.

One has to throw out assumptions of knowledge to ever learn anything new.

When one assumes they already know something, they are not interested in seeking to know more. There is no place for them to learn more, because this contradicts their preexisting beliefs.
 
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ebia

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Do you take every word of the Bible as literal truth?
Of course not. Nobody does. It doesn't even make any sense to to say one takes individual words literally.

If you do how do you account for the things that make no scientific or even logical sense?

If not then on what basis can you say that one section is literal (the resurrection for example) and another is not?
Genre, context, connection with other texts (canonical and otherwise), history,...

To take your example of resurrection...

2nd Temple Jewish expectation was for a physical resurrection of God's people at the end of the age.
The language Paul and others use is firmly physical.
Both Jewish and Greek worlds had perfectly good language for talking about visions, spirits, ghosts, and anything else along that line. They would have found using the physical language that Paul etc uses for a spiritual event bizaar.
It makes no sense for any of them to even maintain the movement and maintain Jesus as messiah unless something has broken all the rules. Crucifixion is the ultimate proof that someone is not the messiah. A spiritual event cannot be suffient to change that:

"Jesus is Lord".
"No he's not, he's dead."
"Oh, but I had a vision last night, and I sense his presence with us now". "Yes, very nice, but the sad fact is he's dead. Right, do we pack up now and go home or do we elect James as the Messiah."

Physical resurrection provides the basis for the complete rethink of all theology and eschatology we find in the New Testament documents - especially Paul and John - that a spiritual event doesn't begin to provide.
 
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DarkProphet

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When one assumes they already know something, they are not interested in seeking to know more. There is no place for them to learn more, because this contradicts their preexisting beliefs.

I see, so when the Bible says that Noah filled the ark with two of every kind of animal we should throw out everything we know about physics and biology so that we can give it a chance?
 
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DarkProphet

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Of course not. Nobody does. It doesn't even make any sense to to say one takes individual words literally.

No one? Really? I'm sure if you took this to CA you would find disagreement on that point.

Genre, context, connection with other texts (canonical and otherwise), history,...

To take your example of resurrection...

2nd Temple Jewish expectation was for a physical resurrection of God's people at the end of the age.
The language Paul and others use is firmly physical.
Both Jewish and Greek worlds had perfectly good language for talking about visions, spirits, ghosts, and anything else along that line. They would have found using the physical language that Paul etc uses for a spiritual event bizaar.
It makes no sense for any of them to even maintain the movement and maintain Jesus as messiah unless something has broken all the rules. Crucifixion is the ultimate proof that someone is not the messiah. A spiritual event cannot be suffient to change that:

"Jesus is Lord".
"No he's not, he's dead."
"Oh, but I had a vision last night, and I sense his presence with us now". "Yes, very nice, but the sad fact is he's dead. Right, do we pack up now and go home or do we elect James as the Messiah."

Physical resurrection provides the basis for the complete rethink of all theology and eschatology we find in the New Testament documents - especially Paul and John - that a spiritual event doesn't begin to provide.

It seems rather dubious to simply take the word of unknown people from a long time ago that such a fantastic event happened.
 
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ebia

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No one? Really? I'm sure if you took this to CA you would find disagreement on that point.
I'm sure I could find people who say they do, but a bit of questioning quickly reveals that in fact their behaviour is at least a little more complex and subtle than that.

It seems rather dubious to simply take the word of unknown people from a long time ago that such a fantastic event happened.
It does, doesn't it. But the question you started with was 'why take it literally' (ie did the mean it to be taken literally) not why think it is true. Let's stick to the literal verses figurative question - start another thread for the question of whether the resurrection accounts are true or not.
 
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DarkProphet

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I'm sure I could find people who say they do, but a bit of questioning quickly reveals that in fact their behaviour is at least a little more complex and subtle than that.

Maybe, but let us not forget, there exists a museum dedicated to creationism and a literal interpretation of the Bible.

It does, doesn't it. But the question you started with was 'why take it literally' (ie did the mean it to be taken literally) not why think it is true. Let's stick to the literal verses figurative question - start another thread for the question of whether the resurrection accounts are true or not.

Except that the criteria for telling the difference is just that, the word of some unknown people from along time ago. Even then it's not consistent if you are to believe that Jesus referred to the Adam and Eve story as literal and you believe that story to be figurative.
 
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ebia

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Maybe, but let us not forget, there exists a museum dedicated to creationism and a literal interpretation of the Bible.
Yeh, but even those people don't actually take everything literally.

Except that the criteria for telling the difference is just that, the word of some unknown people from along time ago.
I can think the resurrection accounts are utterly fake, and still make a judgement about whether they mean a physical or spiritual resurrection. I can think a text utter tripe and make a judgement call about whether it is intended to be literal or figurative.

The extent to which a text is true and the extent to which it is figurative are independent things.

So historians can make a judgement about whether the resurrection accounts are talking about a physical or spritual event without simply believing the texts. Of course, one is using other historical data, and making judgements about that - if you want to write off all historical work as "taking the word of people long ago" I guess you can do that.

Even then it's not consistent if you are to believe that Jesus referred to the Adam and Eve story as literal and you believe that story to be figurative.
You don't seem to have understood the point at all, and it's not being helped by equivocating the concepts of figurative vs literal with physical vs spiritual.

The phrases used for resurrection are physical and are completely out of place for a spiritual resurrection. If one really means the resurrection is figurative - ie nothing at all actually happened but it's a metaphor for some other meaning - then:
a. there is no reason for them to write anything at all because there is absolutely zero chance anyone would regard Jesus as anything more than a failed messiah. That's why the romans crucified would-be messiahs.
b. the language and thoughts just don't work.
In other places the texts clearly are working in figurative ways. And, indeed, quite often they do both at the same time. Very few texts ever written (if any) are entirely figurative or entirely literal.

In the case of Jesus and Paul talking about Adam and or Eve they are actually talking literally - but they are talking about figures who are (whether they know it or not) figurative.

If I talk about Kirk saying "Beam me up, Scotty" I am literally talking about Kirk, but Kirk is a fictional, not real, character.


The way the early Genesis stories function when referred to in the New Testament is entirely independent of whether those stories are themselves figurative or historical.

So getting back to the point, you apply the same sorts of criteria to scriptural text to decide in what ways they are literal and in what ways they are figurative as you do to any other text. If I begin "In a land far, far, away...." you know the narrative that follows is a certain sort of fiction. If I say "the fall of the Berlin wall was an earthshattering event" you don't assume I'm talking about an earthquake. If I post some poetry you can probably tell it's poetry without being told, and will therefore make some pretty reliable inferences about the nature of the language used. If I say "I went to church on Sunday" you can probably assume I literally mean Sunday, since that's when churches tend to have their worship services. If I say "I was having a hard time today, but God gave me a hand and I got through it" you will probably corrently infer that that I didn't come home with three hands.
 
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drich0150

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I haven't gone through all of your responses but as a very general semi rule of thumb, Prophesy, parables or parallels all can be interpreted. Eye wittiness accounts, "History" and letters/instruction are to be taken literal.
 
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Bro_Sam

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Do you take every word of the Bible as literal truth?

Not in the sense that you mean it, no.

I believe that there is a literal God who literally created the literal universe in six literal days, including two literal human beings who committed a literal rebellion against God, and that this literal God, who is literally angry at literal sin will literally pour out literal wrath on literally everyone who does not literally repent. I believe that it for this literal reason that the literal God became a literal man and lived a literally sinless and perfect life to literally die on a literal cross as a literal propitiation for the literal sins of literal sinners. I believe that He was literally raised again from a literal grave and literally ascended to the right hand of the Father and that He will literally judge both those who are literally righteous and those who are literally unrighteous, the righteous to a literal eternity in literal bliss and literal fellowship with a literal God, the unrighteous to a literal eternity of literal agony in a literal lake of fire. It is for this reason that I literally believe that you must literally repent and literally put your faith in the literal Christ's literal death and literal resurrection on a literal cross, literally on behalf of literal sinners, if you literally do not want to face God's literal wrath.

However, I also recognize that God uses a variety of literary and rhetorical devices, including metaphor, parable, and poetic imagery to convey this literal message.

If you do how do you account for the things that make no scientific or even logical sense?

I don't feel I need to account for them. Just because something doesn't make sense to you doesn't mean it doesn't make sense to me.

If not then on what basis can you say that one section is literal (the resurrection for example) and another is not?

All sections are literal. The question is, does it speak literally to make those literal points.
 
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