Literal Reading of Genesis and its So called Contradictions

[GenemZ]

I'm willing to go along with that. But there's more to the OT than just prophecy.

A Prophet? Is a prophet. All that he put forth being enabled by God, was God breathed. For it says.....

"Every word of God is flawless (pure);
he is a shield to those who take refuge in him." Proverbs 30:5 niv

It does not say, "it is a shield." It says, "HE is a shield!" His Word is Himself being represented in written form. "In the begining was the Word...."

What was the point of this quote? You can tag that at the end of any controversial subject to suggest that you are on the side of "sound doctrine" and what the other guy says isn't.

Its is stating that the majority of believers will be wrong. That the accepted "mainstream" will be running in the wrong direction.

Here it is again...

"For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear." 2 Timothy 4:3 niv

You see, if God had his way, there would not be a great number of teachers. Not his own, anyway. For the Spirit delegates and determines who is to have the gift to teach God's Word, not determined by men. Yet, when God's men are doing their job and presenting sound doctrine, believers who resent the truth will seek out others who will come in the name of being a teacher of God, to tell them what they want to hear. Only a few should ever be teachers of God's Word. That is, if all believers are being led of the Spirit. Only a few should teach the many.

"Not many of you should presume to be teachers, my brothers, because you know that we who teach will be judged more strictly." (James 3:1 niv)

I always say this for those who believe the majority opinion is what God bases his favor upon. If you are going to find the truth (other than the very basic foundational teachings) you will not find it in abundance in the mainstream Churches thinking. It will be found in a minority stand in history.

For if only ten righteous were found in the entire city of Sodom? God would have spared it. It does not take a majority with God. It takes "salt of the earth." A faithful remnant.

When salt is used to preserve food it does not take up a majority of the volume as to what it is being preserved. The salt content in relation to what is being preserved is relatively small. Likewise, I do not give a hoot how many so called scientists see it one way, nor how many YEC's are found in their camp. You are both wrong. Because both have neglected in searching out and finding what is needed in God's Word to resolve the conflict. YEC's ignore the scientific data when its inconvenient and spin, and TOE's ignore what God's Word declares for this creation and rationalize. A majority does not make a right. It would be like Communist Russia fighting Nazi Germany. Who ever may win, it does not make the winner righteous. It would only reveal the dominating evil.

The following words were spoken to believers. It was not spoken to those in need of salvation. The words spoken are in reference to truth, and the tolerance for taking liberties (broad and wide) in interpretation...

"Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it." Mat 7:13-14 niv

Only a few find it. James 3:1, tells us that only a few should ever assume to be called of God to teach God's Word. The majority will be wrong. The way to be wrong is broad and wide. It can be the way of TOE, or the way of YEC. Both are on opposite poles of the same stake. One that is to be hammered into the ground by the Truth.

So, in other words? I do not give a hang as to how many scientists all agree with each other concerning the data (fossil record). YEC's are just as wrong as TOE's are. Both have some truth to counter the error of the other, but none has the needed truth to overcome the other. Its a vicious cycle of spin that never ends.

The Spin stops here..http://www.custance.org/Library/WFANDV/index.html.


Now... Did I quote 2 Timothy 4:3, for your benefit? That's up to you. I quote it because it is the Truth.
Grace in peace, GeneZ

 

[Didaskomenos]

A Prophet? Is a prophet. All that he put forth being enabled by God, was God breathed. For it says.....

"Every word of God is flawless (pure);
he is a shield to those who take refuge in him." Proverbs 30:5 niv

Jewish theologians had a firm idea who the "prophets" were, and it wasn't just anyone who wrote a portion of the OT, let alone the yet-to-be created NT. God and his truth (and his Truth personified) are of a refined type of metal that makes a sure shield.

It does not say, "it is a shield." It says, "HE is a shield!" His Word is Himself being represented in written form. "In the begining was the Word...."

Every word of God...ok, now demonstrate that every word of the Bible is the word of God. John 1:1 is the reason I refuse to call the Bible "God's word", because it's blatant blasphemy. The Bible is not the Word of God; Jesus is the Word of God. Surely you don't think Jesus and the Bible are equals!

The Bible contains some of God's words (in the Prophets) and a whole lot of the words of men, all reflecting the true doctrine of God. It is a living testimony to God's pursuit of mankind and the most indispensable guide to the history of salvation (Heilsgeschichte).

 

[GenemZ]

Every word of God...ok, now demonstrate that every word of the Bible is the word of God. John 1:1 is the reason I refuse to call the Bible "God's word", because it's blatant blasphemy. The Bible is not the Word of God; Jesus is the Word of God. Surely you don't think Jesus and the Bible are equals!

God's Word is what God wants us to know, and has made it a permanent record in the Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek texts. It does not mean that everything that is written is God's very words. Words that originated from Himself as the source. If God wants to record the lies of an individual, or the lies of Satan, God has made it known that he wants those lies to be recorded in His Word. God wants the sins and errors of his saints to go on record, as well. So we can all learn from their mistakes, and know a the source of a lie when we see it.

The Bible contains some of God's words (in the Prophets) and a whole lot of the words of men, all reflecting the true doctrine of God. It is a living testimony to God's pursuit of mankind and the most indispensable guide to the history of salvation (Heilsgeschichte).

God breathed which words spoken by men that were to be contained in the Bible. A policeman giving an accident report is not having an accident himself. In like manner, God wants certain acts of men, and their words, to be recorded for our benefit. Many words that the saints spoke have not been written in God's Word. Why? God did not want them there. He controlled (breathed) what his Word is to contain. After all, God's Word is about Himself and the creation. So, God included those of His creation into His Word.

If, Mary was repeating what Jim said? It would then be Mary's words about what Jim said. Likewise, God contained in his Word about what he wants included about what others said. He wants the lies of Satan accurately recorded (which, of course, are not his own words) so we can recognize Satan's modus operandi.

Moses was not in the Garden to hear the lies of the serpent. Was he? God had to let Moses know what was said. Hence, it was God's Word that Moses recorded about the lie! Moses was not present to hear the serpent speak. God's Word wanted the words of the serpent to go on record. This record was God breathed.

God wants the weak moments of certain saints recorded, so when we are weak we can recognize the problem, and the solution needed to recover. God also wants the prosperous moments of saints to be on record.... so we do not abuse prosperity when it comes.

The Jews did not see the Law as only being the books of Moses. They called the entire Torah, "the Law." Jesus did likewise.

Grace and resting..... Genez

 

[Didaskomenos]

The Jews did not see the Law as only being the books of Moses. They called the entire Torah, "the Law." Jesus did likewise.

But both Jesus and the Jews differentiated "the Law" from "the Prophets" (viz. Matt 5:17, 7:12, 11:13, 22:40, etc.). The Torah was simply the five books of Moses.

 

[gluadys]

God did not inspire the Bible. That is a poor translation. That would mean that God got the prophets all excited and let them loose to write what they were moved to write. Artists are inspired. Prophets were something different...

"All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness..." 2 Timothy 3:16 niv

It says, "God breathed."

"inspire" is derived from the Latin for "breathe" .

So to say "All scripture is inspired (breathed) by God...."

and to say "All scripture is God-breathed (inspired)..."

is just saying the same thing in different words.

"breathed" is the Anglo-Saxon based word. "inspired" is the Latin-based word. They mean the same thing.

 

[GenemZ]

[/font]
But both Jesus and the Jews differentiated "the Law" from "the Prophets" (viz. Matt 5:17, 7:12, 11:13, 22:40, etc.). The Torah was simply the five books of Moses.

Now, learn something you did not know. The Jews would refer to the Torah as the Law. Of course, there was the Law of Moses. But, they freely referred to the entire Torah as also the Law.

John 10:33-35 niv

"We are not stoning you for any of these," replied the Jews, "but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God."

Jesus answered them, "Is it not written in your Law, 'I have said you are gods' ?(that's found in Psalm 82:6) If he called them 'gods,' to whom the word of God came--and the Scripture cannot be broken."

Jesus was referring to something located in the Psalms.

Yet, he said... "Is it not written in your Law."

The Jews back then referred to the entire Torah as the Law.

John 12:34 nasb

"The crowd then answered Him, "We have heard out of the Law that the Christ is to remain forever (Ps 110:4; Is 9:7; Ezek 37:25; Dan 7:14); and how can You say, 'The Son of Man must be lifted up'? Who is this Son of Man?"


You learn something you did not know?

I hope there is to be more...

Grace in peace, GeneZ

 

[Didaskomenos]

Wow. Condescension is not only unwarranted, but uncomely.

I understand that "Law" could be a catch-all term, but Jesus himself, in the references I quoted above, distinguished them as technical terms for sections as well.

 

[GenemZ]

"inspire" is derived from the Latin for "breathe" .

So to say "All scripture is inspired (breathed) by God...."

and to say "All scripture is God-breathed (inspired)..."

is just saying the same thing in different words.

"breathed" is the Anglo-Saxon based word. "inspired" is the Latin-based word. They mean the same thing.

The Word of God was exhaled by God, inhaled by the Prophet, and then exhaled unto the written page (by the power of the Holy Spirit).

Breathing is a process of both exhaling and inhaling. Inspire only means to "breath in." Breathing is inhaling and exhaling.

"Inspired" can be used for describing an artist who is a heathen. God breathed means inhaled, and exhaled! Inspired can simply mean highly motivated. To say that the Word of God is "inspired" could be easily misunderstood to mean that the Prophet wrote was enraptured and highly motivated to write by joy. Inhale requires the Prophet taking IN God's Word from God. Exhale, is the process of transferring it outside of the Prophet to the written page.

Grace and peace, GeneZ

 

[Didaskomenos]

But the -pneustos element has only to do with "breath" in the generic sense, not breathing in any fancy-schmancy "exhaled by God, inhaled by the prophet...exhaled unto the written page, and then McHaled to the Navy" nonsense. It appears you have infused the text with your theology.

 

[rmwilliamsll]

The Word of God was exhaled by God, inhaled by the Prophet, and then exhaled unto the written page (by the power of the Holy Spirit).

Breathing is a process of both exhaling and inhaling. Inspire only means to "breath in." Breathing is inhaling and exhaling.

"Inspired" can be used for describing an artist who is a heathen. God breathed means inhaled, and exhaled! Inspired can simply mean highly motivated. To say that the Word of God is "inspired" could be easily misunderstood to mean that the Prophet wrote was enraptured and highly motivated to write by joy. Inhale requires the Prophet taking IN God's Word from God. Exhale, is the process of transferring it outside of the Prophet to the written page.

Grace and peace, GeneZ

thank you for the image. nice.

from: http://www.aomin.org/THEOPNEU.html

inspiration:=
The term comes from the Vulgate, which renders II Tim. iii. 16 'pasa graphe theopneustos', by omnis Scriptura divinitus inspirita.

inspiration + exhalation, different directions, but as you point out a single life-requiring process:=respiration

the obvious parallel is to Gen 2:7
"breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and man [Adam] became a living soul"
from: http://www.potts.net.au/Stand/hell/soul.htm
same images, same words

why unless Scripture is a living Word, it animates, it makes people move and come alive.

---

 

[Didaskomenos]

I (and C.S. Lewis) use that parallel to Gen 2:7 to say that God breathed into the testimony that he foreordained and thereby elevated it to a living status. God brought about the Scriptures from the "dust of the earth", namely man's own writings, and commissioned it by animating it with his own breath.

 

[GenemZ]

Wow. Condescension is not only unwarranted, but uncomely.

I understand that "Law" could be a catch-all term, but Jesus himself, in the references I quoted above, distinguished them as technical terms for sections as well.

I hear Ginko Biloba is good for short term memory loss. You might need some.
For in Message #164 (only a few before this one) you clearly declared the following.

But both Jesus and the Jews differentiated "the Law" from "the Prophets" (viz. Matt 5:17, 7:12, 11:13, 22:40, etc.). The Torah was simply the five books of Moses.

You added in that "etc." For I said...

The Jews did not see the Law as only being the books of Moses. They called the entire Torah, "the Law." Jesus did likewise.

Which you said...

But both Jesus and the Jews differentiated "the Law" from "the Prophets" (viz. Matt 5:17, 7:12, 11:13, 22:40, etc.). The Torah was simply the five books of Moses.

There's that "etc", again. Then I explained how that was not always the case. After that, I see that now I am "condenscending?"

Oh well... Have a nice day... GeneZ

 

[Didaskomenos]

I hear Ginko Biloba is good for short term memory loss. You might need some.
For in Message #164 (only a few before this one) you clearly declared the following.
...
You added in that "etc." For I said...
...
There's that "etc", again. Then I explained how that was not always the case. After that, I see that now I am "condenscending?"

Do you know what "condenscending" [sic] means? Are you ready to learn something brand new? All right! Number one, it is spelled "condescending". Very good! Number two - wait a minute, this is pretty complex, so listen very, very, very closely: <---that annoying type of language is condescension. I am not annoyed at your pointing out information.

My etc. referred to other passages in which "the Prophets" were distinguished from the Torah. Nevertheless it is jumping tracks entirely to say that since the Prophets could be subsumed under the term "the Law", the whole set of OT Scriptures could likewise be subsumed under the term "the Prophets."

 

[GenemZ]

Do you know what "condenscending" [sic] means? Are you ready to learn something brand new? All right! Number one, it is spelled "condescending". Very good! Number two - wait a minute, this is pretty complex, so listen very, very, very closely: <---that annoying type of language is condescension. I am not annoyed at your pointing out information.

My etc. referred to other passages in which "the Prophets" were distinguished from the Torah. Nevertheless it is jumping tracks entirely to say that since the Prophets could be subsumed under the term "the Law", the whole set of OT Scriptures could likewise be subsumed under the term "the Prophets."

Fact remains... The Jews referred to the entire Torah as the Law. When I mentioned this you did not acknowledge that you understood this. (But, later, you said you were well aware of this.) So, you left me wide open to be condescending.

It fun to be condescending with certain types. You should try it some time.

Grace in peace, GeneZ

 

[lucaspa]

Ok. So many TE's claim that Genesis has contradictions when read. All the ones I have run across have also claimed that the Bible is fallible. So I ask each person who responds to answer these:

1. Is the Bible fallible? (yes or no)

According to Jesus in Mark 10 and Matthew 14, yes.

2. Are you a TE or a YEC?

TE

3. How does Genesis suggest evolution?

It doesn't. But then, neither creation story was supposed to be historically accurate. They were intended for theological purposes.

4. Why did God choose evolution over creation in creating the universe?

Evolution is creation. It's how God created. Why did God choose the methods discovered by science instead of creationism? Because, IMO, this way God gets a universe where lives have meaning. It was done out of love for the created creatures.

5. What are the contradictions in Genesis?

If you read Genesis 1 and 2 literally, the contradictions are
1. the time it took to create: 6 days vs 1 day.
2. the order of creation
3. how creation happened. Genesis 1 has entitities being spoken into existence while Genesis 2 has creatures being formed from dust.
4. Men and women, plural, in Genesis 1 vs 1 man and one woman in Genesis 2.
5. The name used for God.

6. If you are TE present Bible verses, not science as your proof for evolution.

Why? Do you present Bible verses as proof for electrons? God's Creation -- God's second book -- tells us how God created.

7. Do you believe that the creation story was really given by God, or did Moses just make it up to give some sort of beginning account?

1. Since there are 3 creation stories in Genesis, there isn't "the" creation story.
2. Moses didn't write Genesis.
3. The creation stories were given by God, but they served human needs at the time and are not history.

 

[GenemZ]

But the -pneustos element has only to do with "breath" in the generic sense, not breathing in any fancy-schmancy "exhaled by God, inhaled by the prophet...exhaled unto the written page, and then McHaled to the Navy" nonsense. It appears you have infused the text with your theology.

God will just "blow you away" someday... Wait and see how insignificant you will become when you stand before him.

It does not have to do with "breath" in a generic sense. There are other sections of Scripture given in the Hebrew and Greek that describe the "breathing of the soul." But, you would not know that, because that is not shown in generic translations.

'All scripture is God-breathed, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness . . . that the man of God might be mature . . . thoroughly furnished unto all good works'.

If there were no exhale, then God would have to grab the quill and do his own writing. God exhales into the Prophet's spirit.... The Prophet inhales what was said... then the Prophet exhaled what he recieved onto the written page.

Not a very difficult thing to grasp, unless you were out to oppose someone who rubs you the wrong way.

Anyway.... Grace in peace, GeneZ

 

[Didaskomenos]

Fact remains... The Jews referred to the entire Torah as the Law.

Well, that's because the Law and the Torah are the same thing. "The Law" is the English translation for Gk. ho nomos, which is the customary Gk. translation for torah. You showed me that they occasionally used the term "the Law"/Torah for more than the Pentateuch, and I reinforced my position that they occasionally differentiated Torah from Nevi'im "the Prophets". You have forgotten the context of this rambling argument: my point was that when Peter referred to the prophets being borne along by the Holy Spirit, he was referring to the Nevi'im and other unrecorded prophets. You have not shown anyone a reason to extend Peter's remarks to the rest of the OT.

It's also fun to punch losers in the face, but not very Christ-like.

 

[lucaspa]

A Prophet? Is a prophet. All that he put forth being enabled by God, was God breathed. For it says.....

"Every word of God is flawless (pure);
he is a shield to those who take refuge in him." Proverbs 30:5 niv

It does not say, "it is a shield." It says, "HE is a shield!" His Word is Himself being represented in written form. "In the begining was the Word...."

You seem to have taken this out of context. Proverbs is listing a whole slew of attributes of God. Let's go back to 30:4
"Who hath ascended up into heaven, or descended? who hath gathered the wind in his fists? who hath bound the waters in a garment? who hath established all the ends of the earth? what [is] his name, and what [is] his son's name, if thou canst tell?

Then we get verse 5. See the semicolon? That denotes two separate thoughts. It is there to tell you that "he is a shield" is a separate thought from "every word of God is pure".

John 1:1 refers to Jesus, not the Bible! See John 1:14. The Bible is not like the Quran -- dictated by God. Nor is God the Bible. The "Word" is Jesus, not the Bible!

His Word is Himself being represented in written form.

This is turning the Bible into God. False idol worship. Plain and simple.

"For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear." 2 Timothy 4:3 niv

Sounds like creationism to me. Ignore what you don't want to hear from God in God's Creation, then make the Bible into a false idol to worship by saying the Bible is God.

You see, if God had his way, there would not be a great number of teachers. Not his own, anyway.

Well, science fits that! Because the only "teacher" in science is God's Creation! ONE teacher!

Only a few should ever be teachers of God's Word. That is, if all believers are being led of the Spirit. Only a few should teach the many.

And, of course, you would be among the few? Sorry, but this idea of having a few teachers that everyone had to listen to went out in the Reformation.

I always say this for those who believe the majority opinion is what God bases his favor upon. If you are going to find the truth (other than the very basic foundational teachings) you will not find it in abundance in the mainstream Churches thinking. It will be found in a minority stand in history.

Really? Trinity was a majority stand. Is it wrong? The canon of books that are to be included in the Bible is a majority opinion. They are not the truth?

The words spoken are in reference to truth, and the tolerance for taking liberties (broad and wide) in interpretation...

"Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it." Mat 7:13-14 niv

Then isn't it ironic when creationists say that the majority of scientists reject evolution and favor creationism? Isn't it ironic when creationism claims to be the majority view among Christians?

It seems that, by your argument, since creationism believes most Christians are literalists, that they are the ones missing the gate.

It can be the way of TOE, or the way of YEC. Both are on opposite poles of the same stake. One that is to be hammered into the ground by the Truth.

And YEC has already been hammered into the ground by the Truth revealed by God in His Creation. Yet somehow creationism refuses to listen to God but insists on its human literal interpretation of the Bible. Why does YEC deny that God created?

So, in other words? I do not give a hang as to how many scientists all agree with each other concerning the data (fossil record).

You should. Scientists agree only when the data gives them no choice. Attend a scientific meeting sometime. Makes all the arguments here look like a love fest. Look at the arguments between Feduccia and the rest of the paleontological community over the exact evolutionary lineage of birds or Wolpoff over the exact mechanism of the evolution of humans. That they agree that birds and humans evolved is testimony to the fact that they can't disagree with that. The data is too overwhelming.

Science works with evidence that is the same for everyone under approximately the same circumstances. So go look at the fossil record yourself. You'll end up agreeing with them, too.

 

[GenemZ]

[/font]
Well, that's because the Law and the Torah are the same thing. "The Law" is the English translation for Gk. ho nomos, which is the customary Gk. translation for torah. You showed me that they occasionally used the term "the Law"/Torah for more than the Pentateuch, and I reinforced my position that they occasionally differentiated Torah from Nevi'im "the Prophets". You have forgotten the context of this rambling argument: my point was that when Peter referred to the prophets being borne along by the Holy Spirit, he was referring to the Nevi'im and other unrecorded prophets. You have not shown anyone a reason to extend Peter's remarks to the rest of the OT.

It's also fun to punch losers in the face, but not very Christ-like.

Careful!

You can cut your hand.

(punching that mirror).


I was born and brought up a Jew. Then I got saved. The Torah is the entire Scroll(s). We used to take out the Torah every Saturday morning and parade it up and down the aisles in Synagogue. We used to reach out and kiss it using the hem of our Tallis.

And, it was not referred to as the Law on occassion back then. It was a common practice of the Jews at the time of Christ. Jesus used the term freely, and everyone simply understood. When they wanted to refer to specific sections of the Law, then they would break it down into the Prophets, law (of Moses) , etc.

Its kind of like a soldier stationed overseas , saying he wishes he was back home in the States. Yet, he is only from Wyoming. Likewise, the entire Torah was referred to commonly as the Law, by the Jews back then.

It's also fun to punch losers in the face, but not very Christ-like.

I see this point I made is being used to reveal some inate antagonism. So, it served a purpose in revealing the "fruit" of this tree. I guess that's why the Lord had me bring it up. We all need to be exposed, you know. Its the only way we can truly grow. We are all sinners saved by grace. Trouble is, when we want to save the sinner part for ourselves.

Try a safety glass mirror next time. They do not shatter.


Grace and chuckles, GeneZ

 

[GenemZ]

You seem to have taken this out of context. Proverbs is listing a whole slew of attributes of God. Let's go back to 30:4
"Who hath ascended up into heaven, or descended? who hath gathered the wind in his fists? who hath bound the waters in a garment? who hath established all the ends of the earth? what [is] his name, and what [is] his son's name, if thou canst tell?

Then we get verse 5. See the semicolon? That denotes two separate thoughts. It is there to tell you that "he is a shield" is a separate thought from "every word of God is pure".

John 1:1 refers to Jesus, not the Bible! See John 1:14. The Bible is not like the Quran -- dictated by God. Nor is God the Bible. The "Word" is Jesus, not the Bible!

The Word is the Mind of Christ. And, we have been given that mind in the written Word. The term commonly translated, "mind of Christ" in the Greek could just as easily have been rendered, "the thinking of Christ."

Jesus lived by who he was. He summed it up in one statement....

Matthew 4:4... (I am adding some emphasis given in the Greek)

"But He (Jesus) answered and said, "It was written (in the past with results that stand forever) . . . "Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that keeps on coming out of the mouth of God - to our advantage."

Jesus lived by every word. Now, we are to be imitators of Christ.

God does not change his mind. What he said in the past still stands true today, and will stand true forever. To see what is written is to see what God is saying today. If the Word speaks of past history, this is how we would be told about the past history if God were to reveal it for the first time today. That is the sense the Greek gives. So, to see what was written, is to see what God is saying. God also added in sections to tell us that certain issues in the Bible no longer are in effect after a certain point in time. I say that for those who advocate living under the Law of Moses. One does remove the band aid after the wound heals. Certain wounds have healed. Man is no longer under the band aid of the Law.

"By his stripes we have been healed..."

This is turning the Bible into God. False idol worship. Plain and simple.

It can become that. Just like anything else in life.

Sounds like creationism to me. Ignore what you don't want to hear from God in God's Creation, then make the Bible into a false idol to worship by saying the Bible is God.

The Bible is the thinking of God towards the believer. It is not God in itself. God is much more than what is contained in the Bible. But we are not ready for anything beyond what is now written. That will come after the resurrection and we are granted great powers to know and to see what we can not even dream of imagine in the state we now find ourselves. We are a larve compared to what will blossom at the resurrection.

And, of course, you would be among the few? Sorry, but this idea of having a few teachers that everyone had to listen to went out in the Reformation.

And, the concept of living by the Constitution went out during the Civil War. So? Does that make it right?

Really? Trinity was a majority stand. Is it wrong? The canon of books that are to be included in the Bible is a majority opinion. They are not the truth?

You say that after quoting what I just said? Which was....

I always say this for those who believe the majority opinion is what God bases his favor upon. If you are going to find the truth (other than the very basic foundational teachings) you will not find it in abundance in the mainstream Churches thinking. It will be found in a minority stand in history.

I said... that there will be agreement on the foundational beliefs. You just mentioned two as a means to disprove what I said.

Then isn't it ironic when creationists say that the majority of scientists reject evolution and favor creationism? Isn't it ironic when creationism claims to be the majority view among Christians?

It seems that, by your argument, since creationism believes most Christians are literalists, that they are the ones missing the gate.

Not so fast, evolving one... Young Earth Creationists are in the majority of believers. The Multiple Creation Gap understanding is in a minority of believers. For it requires concentration and an exercize of some academic ability to disern what the Original Languages teach us in Scripture. Most Christians want their emotions stimulated and not being forced to think. They refuse grace in this area. They want the choir to be preached to. There are only a few teachers who properly grasp and teach the GAP understanding. Its the only teaching that makes sense, if you are not going to reject Scripture as being God breathed, and are not going to give a closed eye to the fossil records.

Here it is for you to see for yourself.

http://www.custance.org/Library/WFANDV/index.html

And YEC has already been hammered into the ground by the Truth revealed by God in His Creation. Yet somehow creationism refuses to listen to God but insists on its human literal interpretation of the Bible. Why does YEC deny that God created?

They are NOT working with a literal interpretation. They are working with a watered down generic translation. They do not want to think beyond a certain point. To be demanded to accept parts of the Bible as needing academic concentration is anathama to them. They want it to be simple, yet sound complex enough to satisfy the need to feel they have intelligence; yet they refuse to accept the grace to concentrate on what is difficult to understand by an undisciplined mind, which makes many a believer to feel threatened, because they were poor students growing up.

Certain things in the bible are complex and require deep concentration. You will find this when you find someone able to teach directly from the original languages. There are technical words used at times that generic translations simply water down and move away from its intent. This is not a new problem with believers.

Peter spoke of Paul's teachings in like manner....

"Speaking of these things as he (Paul) does in all his letters. In them there are some things hard to understand that the ignorant and unstable distort to their own destruction, just as they do the other Scriptures." 2 Peter 3:16

You should. Scientists agree only when the data gives them no choice.

They have limited their choice. They refuse to hear any viable options.

Attend a scientific meeting sometime. Makes all the arguments here look like a love fest. Look at the arguments between Feduccia and the rest of the paleontological community over the exact evolutionary lineage of birds or Wolpoff over the exact mechanism of the evolution of humans. That they agree that birds and humans evolved is testimony to the fact that they can't disagree with that. The data is too overwhelming.

They have refused the data that says there have been multiple creations from the hand of God. YEC's also refsue to acknowledge this. So, we have a Hatfields and McCoys battle going on between the two. Both see just enough to know the other can not be correct, but both lack what it takes to have peace over the issue. Each side becomes more determined not to accept the other side because each side sees the other as offensive to their sensibilities. Its either those "heathen scientists." Or, those non thinking, superstitious YEC's!

Yet, there has been answer all along! Both sides can't see it, because both sides are too busy defending their pride. Pride is sin! Sin cuts one off from the leading of the spirit into all truth. As long as both sides keep operating in the modus operandi of pride and arrogance, both sides are being robbed of the opportunity of discovering the truth that has always been there!

http://www.custance.org/Library/WFANDV/chap1.html

Science works with evidence that is the same for everyone under approximately the same circumstances. So go look at the fossil record yourself. You'll end up agreeing with them, too.

I agree that fossils reveal a prior lifeform that we do not see today. Yet, God will once again create a new creation that will not be like the creation we see in our world today. He will do it once again, as he always had.

Isaiah 65:17-25
17 For, behold, I create new heavens and new earth. And the former things shall not be recalled, and they shall not be remembered.
18 However, be glad and rejoice forever in what I create. For, behold, I create in Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy.
19 And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in My people. And the voice of weeping and the voice of crying shall no longer be heard in her.
20 There shall not still be an infant of days, or an old man that has not filled his days. For the youth shall die the son of a hundred years, but the sinner the son of a hundred years shall be accursed.
21 And they shall build houses and live in them; and they shall plant vineyards and eat their fruit.
22 They shall not build, and another live in them; they shall not plant, and another eat. For like the days of the tree are the days of My people; and My elect shall grow old to the work of their hands.
23 They shall not labor in vain, nor bring forth for terror. For they are the seed of the beloved ones of Jehovah, and their offspring with them.
24 And it will be, before they call, I will answer. While they are speaking, then I will hear.
25 The wolf and the lamb shall feed as one; and the lion shall eat straw like the ox. And dust is the food of the snake. They shall not do evil nor destroy in all My holy mountain, says Jehovah.

Now, those snakes and lions will resemble the ones in this present creation. But, you would have sworn that millions of years were taken to transform that lion into a grass grazing creature. And, millions to get the snake to lose its fangs and find sustenance like a an earthworm does.

There is an answer. You are just blinded by the data itself.

Grace in peace, GeneZ