Literal Reading of Genesis and its So called Contradictions

[Faith In God]

The lineage in the Gospels is the lineage of Joseph. Jesus is not Joseph's biological child, so he does not depend on Joseph's lineage. Unless, of course, you deny the virgin birth.

For all purposes, Jesus' lineage must be traced from the father's side. all the way to Adam.

 

[Infinity]

One thing about the book of Genesis. It was written well over 2000 years ago and true modern science started only 50 or so years ago

 

[Didaskomenos]

i don't see conviction as arrogance.

Neither do I. I do see coming to certain convictions on one's own with total disregard of factors outside one's hermeneutical principles as arrogance.

I think God's word was meant for everyone (of the time and at present) and He would not lie to make a point.

Agreed on both counts. What's your point? The Bible was meant for us, but we were meant to study the Bible. What's controversial about that? If myth = lies:

1) Jesus' parables (not being historical narratives) were lies as well.
2) You lie every time you tell a joke.

You're being too simplistic. God is a complex Being. His is a complex world. His efforts at communicating with us are no less complex (e.g., the cross). He wants the truth to be accessible, but not so simple to acquire that we undervalue it. Pennies are frequently come by and easily taken in a parking lot, whereas hundred dollar bills are less so.

 

[Faith In God]

Neither do I. I do see coming to certain convictions on one's own with total disregard of factors outside one's hermeneutical principles as arrogance.

i'll get ahead of the quotes. yes, i suppose my comments are a bit too simplistic right now, so i'll try to clarify a bit more.

Agreed on both counts. What's your point? The Bible was meant for us, but we were meant to study the Bible. What's controversial about that? If myth = lies:

1) Jesus' parables (not being historical narratives) were lies as well.

Jesus told parables specifically to hide truth from the listeners to fulfill prophecy.

2) You lie every time you tell a joke.

a joke is understood as being fictional ( unless it's a personal story. )

You're being too simplistic. God is a complex Being. His is a complex world. His efforts at communicating with us are no less complex (e.g., the cross). He wants the truth to be accessible, but not so simple to acquire that we undervalue it. Pennies are frequently come by and easily taken in a parking lot, whereas hundred dollar bills are less so.

i'm sorry. i didn't understand exactly where you were going with that, but like i said, i'll try to not be generic.

 

[Didaskomenos]

Jesus told parables specifically to hide truth from the listeners to fulfill prophecy.

True, but are you saying he was lying?

a joke is understood as being fictional ( unless it's a personal story. )

And a myth was not understood as scientific history. It wasn't until the Hellenistic period much later that people worried about a historically-accurate account of the events of the past. They wanted to know what happened only so far as it helped them understand the present world. That's the point of mythology! What makes mythology so useful is that it is conveys deep propositional truths ("God made the world", "mankind is fallen", etc.) when the scientific or historical mechanics that wrought those truths is unknown. A myth is like a narrative buggy used to cart about universal themes irrespective of the historicity of the narrative itself. Think of movies: in the better ones, the film-makers are trying to say something, to express beliefs that they have about the world that don't depend on the settings. Often, there is no historical basis for the movie. But if the film is made well, we get the themes anyway.

 

[Faith In God]

True, but are you saying he was lying?

like saying "There once was a dog who had some meat..."

Jesus did not sin. they were metaphores, and i'm sure the crowds knew Jesus meant something past what He was saying, kind of like telling the story of how a greedy dog lost his meat trying to scare his reflection. the difference was that the meaning (the moral, if you will) of Jesus' stories was hidden from them.

And a myth was not understood as scientific history. It wasn't until the Hellenistic period much later that people worried about a historically-accurate account of the events of the past. They wanted to know what happened only so far as it helped them understand the present world. That's the point of mythology! What makes mythology so useful is that it is conveys deep propositional truths ("God made the world", "mankind is fallen", etc.) when the scientific or historical mechanics that wrought those truths is unknown. A myth is like a narrative buggy used to cart about universal themes irrespective of the historicity of the narrative itself. Think of movies: in the better ones, the film-makers are trying to say something, to express beliefs that they have about the world that don't depend on the settings. Often, there is no historical basis for the movie. But if the film is made well, we get the themes anyway.

if you really believe the purpose of all the history in the OT is for morals, then go ahead. I will stick with the literal, because if you don't, then you leave the rest up to imagination (backed by 'theories' )rather than God.

 

[Didaskomenos]

if you really believe the purpose of all the history in the OT is for morals, then go ahead. I will stick with the literal, because if you don't, then you leave the rest up to imagination (backed by 'theories' )rather than God.

I did not say exactly that the purpose of all history in the OT is for morals, but what do you think it was? A purely academic exposition of history? What would be the point of inspiration of that? I was talking specifically about mythology, which carries concepts besides morals. However, probably none of the OT meets the same standards for history that we follow. "Stay neutral. Give an even account with no underlying purpose for delivering the account besides setting down historical events exactly as they happened." The ancients had no use for such sterilized and lifeless trivia. Look at Judges, for instance. The point of that book and all the historical narratives therein is that there are disastrous consequences when a nation does what is right in its own eyes, rather than let God guide it through his holy men and women. It doesn't tell about the specific institution of "judge", how the office came about, how each one was called, the exact dates they lived and ministered, how each one died, etc. It has a point in highlighting Israel's victories and defeats, and what light is shed on the other historical details in this period of the history of Israel is oblique, and incidental to the main point.

 

[fragmentsofdreams]

One thing about the book of Genesis. It was written well over 2000 years ago and true modern science started only 50 or so years ago

I think there is a fallacy here, but since I can't discern your point, I can't figure out which one.

 

[fragmentsofdreams]

For all purposes, Jesus' lineage must be traced from the father's side. all the way to Adam.

Biblically, who is Joseph's father?

 

[Infinity]

I think there is a fallacy here, but since I can't discern your point, I can't figure out which one.

We tend to think our gereration is the center of everything. 2000+ years ago till say 200 years ago man read the same word as we read today. How in the world would anyone from that age even begin to understand it if God got into major detail about the creation account. He did it in more detail in the book of Job in words Job can understand. Thats why it sounds so simple, maybe be to be a stumbling block to the wise of our age

 

[gluadys]

Adam could not tell how old he was from his physical body...

of course creation comes from God. Everyone here agrees with that.

Your first point depends on assuming that Genesis 2 is a literal description of the creation of an individual human male in adult form. That is far from the only possible interpretation.

However, since you argue that Adam's age was illusory, I take it you are applying the illusion of maturity argument to all of creation and agreeing that creation can lie about itself.

So then, why does scripture point us to creation as a witness to God? Why should we believe what a lying witness tells us about its maker?

 

[Faith In God]

Your first point depends on assuming that Genesis 2 is a literal description of the creation of an individual human male in adult form. That is far from the only possible interpretation.

yup. I know. evolution comes to mind, right?

However, since you argue that Adam's age was illusory, I take it you are applying the illusion of maturity argument to all of creation and agreeing that creation can lie about itself.

...I guess you could see it that way. another way of putting it: seeing isn't believing.

So then, why does scripture point us to creation as a witness to God? Why should we believe what a lying witness tells us about its maker?

Creation testifies to the existance of a Creator. Creation doesn't talk about what the Creator is like. He tells us Himself in His word (and Jesus.)

 

[Faith In God]

I did not say exactly that the purpose of all history in the OT is for morals, but what do you think it was? A purely academic exposition of history? What would be the point of inspiration of that?

God did things that show what He is like. He doesn't have to make things up. He can just do it. I believe He did what He did how He says He did it.

I was talking specifically about mythology, which carries concepts besides morals.

morals was just the example. I wasn't limiting my comment to the purpose being to convey a moral.

However, probably none of the OT meets the same standards for history that we follow. "Stay neutral.

God's word is never neutral. It doesn't even allow for the possibility of atheism.

Give an even account with no underlying purpose for delivering the account besides setting down historical events exactly as they happened." The ancients had no use for such sterilized and lifeless trivia. Look at Judges, for instance. The point of that book and all the historical narratives therein is that there are disastrous consequences when a nation does what is right in its own eyes, rather than let God guide it through his holy men and women. It doesn't tell about the specific institution of "judge", how the office came about, how each one was called, the exact dates they lived and ministered, how each one died, etc. It has a point in highlighting Israel's victories and defeats, and what light is shed on the other historical details in this period of the history of Israel is oblique, and incidental to the main point.

God wrote His word for a purpose. Do you say God would have His writers make up a story to convey a point?

 

[GodSaves]

You know God is beyond all. Greater then great. The Alpha the Omega. To use science to understand Him and/or His works is foolish. If you are going to use science to understand His creation the use science to understand Him walking on water. You can't. God is beyond all. God is greater then all. Nothing can encapsulate Him. Nothing can understand Him. Nothing is beyond Him. And using science to understand Him is beyond foolish. Science is today's baalism. Too many worship it in many ways. Believing the men of science have your eternal soul in mind, how silly. But of course science will one day say we came from aliens. Will you believe that too? Stop looking to science for the answers, look to God.

I am a fool for God. I am a servant of God. I am a fool. I love God more then anything in this world. I would sell my soul to Him if it wasn't already His. You argue over nonsense. You look to science to explain what God explained. Should not all of us be doing the great commision? If you love God, then you will love your brothers, in Christ and not in Christ. If you love God, you will trust He has keep His Word true. If you love God, you will move on and turn your energies to speaking to non-believers about God. If you love God, you will be a fool for Him too. If you love God, you will be still and quiet. If you love God, you will recognize Him as the creator and the restorer. If you love God, you will recognize He is beyond you. If you love God, you will know He is God, the Alpha the Omega, the beginning and the end, and the one who will bring judgement on all. If you love God, you will love your neighbors. If you love God, you will think the best of your neighbors. If you love God, you will deny yourself and accept His Will. If you love God you will stop arguing or making it look like arguing. If you love God, then say you do, by loving your neighbor.

My love to all of you, and may His love shine upon each and everyone of you. May we all be fools for Christ. May we all put Him first and deny ourselves. May we all uplift each other. May we all love one another thus showing we love God.

God created period. Nothing more needs to be said. God is the beginning and the end. Take upon yourself His commision. Tell others now of His love for all.

May our love fill this earth so our God knows that He is the first, the last, the only God who all righteousness lives, all justness live, all love lives, all mercy lives, all forgiveness live in Him, alone. We share this with Him, and with each other and may we act like it. God Bless each and everyone who reads this, for this is the LORD's command that we uplift one another that we love one another that we be like the samaritan, that we struggle to be like Christ. Repeat after me, I LOVE JESUS CHRIST SON OF GOD THE TRUE GOD MY ONLY GOD MAY HE REIGN FOREVER!

A fool for Christ!

 

[GenemZ]

What? Why would I wish to bend any undeniable truth?! Many who hold to the literalist argument are trying to hold on to their own primitive understanding of a passage rather than situate it historically and generically. I would much have preferred to hold on to the view that the creation account is some special divinely-given scientific knowledge. I just can't do it honestly.

So far you have been only confronting Young Earth Creationsists. They are correct on principle (Word of God does not lie) but totally wrong on application. They do not understand the meaning of the Hebrew text in Genesis, and stand stubbornly on traditional myth which was based upon translations, not the actual text.

If you have an open mind as you claim to have, I suggest to fill it with substance that will make both the fossil records and God's creation able to make sense, and in a logical resolve. Go here and take a quick read to get your feet wet, please.

http://www.custance.org/Library/WFANDV/index.html

Problem is this. Genesis 1 describes the present creation. It also reveals that there was a prior creation! YEC's only see this creation as being the only creation to come from the hands of God. Yet, even the NT and OT Scripture speak of a New Earth that will replace this one. God will do it again. He did it in the past, and he will do it again. In the future, this present creation will be replaced by a new one. So, YEC's should no be so shocked to learn that this one has replaced another one. There have been multiple creations. It explains why we see sudden changes in lifeforms, yet we find no sufficient evidence for transitional forms that evolution requires to be vindicated... Try that link, please. Hopefully, you will see an answer you could not see before. Arguing with YEC's is like arguing with a drunk. And, they arguing with TE's is also like arguing with a drunk. Two drunks arguing? No one wins! (sobering thought)...

Grace in peace, GeneZ

 

[eternalmade777]

normaly i would be more than happy to comment on the issue alltough right now im too tired to type a long drawn out explination of my belifes . so i will simply say read darwins black box by micheal behe.very very interesting!
good nite

 

[Karl - Liberal Backslider]

God wrote His word for a purpose.

No. God did not write the Bible. He inspired it. That he wrote it goes far beyond any internal statement - it is an extra-biblical belief, ironically.

Do you say God would have His writers make up a story to convey a point?

By Jingo! He's got it!

 

[Didaskomenos]

So far you have been only confronting Young Earth Creationsists. They are correct on principle (Word of God does not lie) but totally wrong on application. They do not understand the meaning of the Hebrew text in Genesis, and stand stubbornly on traditional myth which was based upon translations, not the actual text.

If you have an open mind as you claim to have, I suggest to fill it with substance that will make both the fossil records and God's creation able to make sense, and in a logical resolve. Go here and take a quick read to get your feet wet, please.

http://www.custance.org/Library/WFANDV/index.html

Problem is this. Genesis 1 describes the present creation. It also reveals that there was a prior creation! YEC's only see this creation as being the only creation to come from the hands of God. Yet, even the NT and OT Scripture speak of a New Earth that will replace this one. God will do it again. He did it in the past, and he will do it again. In the future, this present creation will be replaced by a new one. So, YEC's should no be so shocked to learn that this one has replaced another one. There have been multiple creations. It explains why we see sudden changes in lifeforms, yet we find no sufficient evidence for transitional forms that evolution requires to be vindicated... Try that link, please. Hopefully, you will see an answer you could not see before. Arguing with YEC's is like arguing with a drunk. And, they arguing with TE's is also like arguing with a drunk. Two drunks arguing? No one wins! (sobering thought)...

Grace in peace, GeneZ

All right, I'll look into it.

 

[GenemZ]

No. God did not write the Bible. He inspired it. That he wrote it goes far beyond any internal statement - it is an extra-biblical belief, ironically.

God did not inspire the Bible. That is a poor translation. That would mean that God got the prophets all excited and let them loose to write what they were moved to write. Artists are inspired. Prophets were something different...

"All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness..." 2 Timothy 3:16 niv

It says, "God breathed." I do not have the passages before me that I have been taught from the Hebrew and Greek in the past over the years, But, in the original languages of Scripture there are things taught about the inhale and exhale of the soul towards God. "God breathed", means that God has the Prophet inhale truth, then breath it out in expression of what was taken in. It will come out with God leaving the Prophet's personality left intact. But what goes in, comes out as God desired it to be, by His own power enabling the Prophet to do so.

2 Peter 1:19-21

"And we have the word of the prophets made more certain, and you will do well to pay attention to it, as to a light shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts. Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture originated by the prophet's own interpretation. For prophecy never had its origin in the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were 'carried along'/moved under the authority of the Holy Spirit."

Now, you are free to reject that. Just as Adam was free to reject God's command not to eat of the forbidden fruit. Yet, at the same time, the Bible never teaches that translations are always God's Word. For translations can have their origin in man's interpretation. Yet, if there is a God in Heaven (and there is) He, God, has the ability to raise up choice men in a given generation who will be able to bring forth an accurate translation which contains the proper information which is needed to overcome the evil of his generation. Not all he translates may be 100% accurate. But, he will be gifted to translate what is needed for that given generation to overcome its particular evils 100%.

God leaves all believers with some point of error in their thinking. The most mature believer will still have some error in his thinking. Why? He is only required to be correct in what God sees as being essential for his given generation's problems and blessings. And, that those who learn from such a teacher must yet do their own thinking and REASONING as to not be led to believe they can follow a man blindly. Then they would not have to think for themselves.

We will all be accountable for what we choose to believe. This way, no one can blame another for what they decided to believe. For every teacher will have some area(s) of error in their thinking, for they have gotten ahead of God in an area to be understood. Or, have ventured into an area God sees not needed to be understood in his day. As long as it is not essential to the day he lives in, God may allow for "doctrinally inspired speculation" to take place, as to keep others from believing what is wrong... yet not yet knowing what the truth may be.

............But, be that as it may. God is in control sitting in Heaven. Life here on earth is a time of making choices. Good ones, and bad ones. In order to allow for man to exercize his free volition, God allows for both good teachers and bad teachers to co-exist. After all, those who spiritually mature eventually do find the good teachers. They were exposed to the bad ones, as well. Yet, they chose to make right choices (by grace) and will leave all the believers who desired what is wrong (in pride) to be without excuse.

2 Timothy 4:3 niv

"For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear."

Grace in peace, GeneZ

 

[Didaskomenos]

"All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness..." 2 Timothy 3:16 niv

It says, "God breathed." I do not have the passages before me that I have been taught from the Hebrew and Greek in the past over the years, But, in the original languages of Scripture there are things taught about the inhale and exhale of the soul towards God. "God breathed", means that God has the Prophet inhale truth, then breath it out in expression of what was taken in. It will come out with God leaving the Prophet's personality left intact. But what goes in, comes out as God desired it to be, by His own power enabling the Prophet to do so.

2 Peter 1:19-21

"And we have the word of the prophets made more certain, and you will do well to pay attention to it, as to a light shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts. Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture originated by the prophet's own interpretation. For prophecy never had its origin in the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were 'carried along'/moved under the authority of the Holy Spirit."

I'm willing to go along with that. But there's more to the OT than just prophecy.

2 Timothy 4:3 niv

"For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear."

What was the point of this quote? You can tag that at the end of any controversial subject to suggest that you are on the side of "sound doctrine" and what the other guy says isn't.