Literal miracles in the Bible?

[ChetSinger]

Which brings us back to the subject of miracles: a four-dimensional being puttering around in a three-dimensional universe would certainly be capable of "miraculous" deeds.

For theological reasons, I think it best to rule this out, however, as an explanation for God.
1. Such an extradimensional visitor need not have created this universe in order to have the power to alter it, and certainly would have no moral authority to do so.
2. If what we call "God" is just a traveler from the fourth (or fifth, or sixth...) dimension, it raises the question of... is He the only one? If so, how is it that He came to be the only one of His kind? If not, how can we be sure that all these "miracles" are His handiwork?
3. This explanation of miracles still leaves a crucial question unanswered: why did the miracles stop?

I didn't intend to promote God as nothing more than a 4D entity. If I did then I take that back, since it was just a thought experiment.

As I see it, the bible portrays God closer to a sentient and loving prime mover. He is the only one of his kind and one of the reasons is that he alone is "uncreated", meaning having eternal existence. Even his name may indicate that: From the Encyclopedia Brittanica: "Many scholars believe that the most proper meaning may be “He Brings into Existence Whatever Exists” (Yahweh-Asher-Yahweh)."

So he alone has been eternal. Everyone else, whether angelic or human, is created.

Regarding the stopping of miracles, I don't think that's happened. But they remain rare, as they always have been.

 

[TLK Valentine]

I didn't intend to promote God as nothing more than a 4D entity. If I did then I take that back, since it was just a thought experiment.

I wasn't sure, but just in case, I wanted to address that possibility.

As I see it, the bible portrays God closer to a sentient and loving prime mover. He is the only one of his kind and one of the reasons is that he alone is "uncreated", meaning having eternal existence. Even his name may indicate that: From the Encyclopedia Brittanica: "Many scholars believe that the most proper meaning may be “He Brings into Existence Whatever Exists” (Yahweh-Asher-Yahweh)."

So he alone has been eternal. Everyone else, whether angelic or human, is created.

I've always considered that to be a special pleading fallacy. "Everything in the universe had to have a beginning... except God, of course."

Unless God is not of "this" universe... if He exists on a higher level of existence, it's "4-D" in all but name, and the same questions apply.

Regarding the stopping of miracles, I don't think that's happened. But they remain rare, as they always have been.

Fair enough.

 

[inquiring mind]

Now, for this thread, I want to define "miracle" as "The overt suspension of natural laws by the divine or agent of the divine in order to achieve a divine purpose."

That said, are the miracle stories as they are described in the Old and New Testaments meant to be interpreted as depictions of actual events?

And if so, do those depictions bring people closer to an understanding of God, or further away?

Because it seems to me that stories of a God who can miraculously bend/break the natural laws of the universe at will raise a lot of awkward questions about the countless times He chooses not to.

Consider:

• God rains manna from the heavens to feed the Israelites.... today, millions are starving.
• God -- either personally or through His prophets -- heals the sick and infirm and even raises the dead... today, millions suffer and die.
• God -- again either personally or through His prophets -- commands the forces of nature... today, drought, storms, earthquakes, etc... kill millions.

Now, I'm not asking "why do bad things happen?" But rather, "would we even have to ask these questions if we didn't assume that miracles were actual historic acts?"

Thoughts?

I think you provided an answer for awkward questions in your opening statement… that being as difficult as it is for us to understand, maybe there’s just no divine purpose for an intervention in the calamities you mention. But, there are countless miracles every day in peoples’ lives, some obvious and some not, neither getting the exposure biblical accounts do. To believe in miracles you must first believe in a supernatural God, otherwise they're always going to be explained or unexplained natural occurrences to you.

 

[TLK Valentine]

I think you provided an answer for awkward questions in your opening statement… that being as difficult as it is for us to understand, maybe there’s just no divine purpose for an intervention in the calamities you mention.

Perhaps, but someone's inactions can say as much about them as their actions.

If a parent rushes to act to stop their child from touching a hot stove, well, of course we say that action makes them a good and responsible parent. If that same parent sees their other child about to drink bleach and merely shrugs it off, what does that say?

But, there are countless miracles every day in peoples’ lives, some obvious and some not, neither getting the exposure biblical accounts do.

I would think that even in this day and age the obvious miracles would get some exposure... they may not get the same belief as Biblical accounts do, but especially in this day and age, when any unusual event is going to be followed by a half-dozen people pulling out their phones and starting to record...

To believe in miracles you must first believe in a supernatural God, otherwise they're always going to be explained or unexplained natural occurrences to you.

Well, when an "unexplained natural occurrance" um... occurs, which is, generally speaking, the better way to deal with it?

"It's a miracle! We should discuss what it means..."
"Well, that was odd... we should figure out how that happened..."

 

[inquiring mind]

Perhaps, but someone's inactions can say as much about them as their actions.

If a parent rushes to act to stop their child from touching a hot stove, well, of course we say that action makes them a good and responsible parent. If that same parent sees their other child about to drink bleach and merely shrugs it off, what does that say?

It says there is a whole lot going on in this life, a world we’re responsible for (if you believe what is taught in Sunday School), and it would take continual divine intervention at all levels to prevent every calamity.

I would think that even in this day and age the obvious miracles would get some exposure... they may not get the same belief as Biblical accounts do, but especially in this day and age, when any unusual event is going to be followed by a half-dozen people pulling out their phones and starting to record...

As I said, we’ll never understand. If some calamity kills 15 people instead of 250, would you know, see it as, or even consider divine intervention?

Well, when an "unexplained natural occurrance" um... occurs, which is, generally speaking, the better way to deal with it?

"It's a miracle! We should discuss what it means..."
"Well, that was odd... we should figure out how that happened..."

This is not an ‘either/or’ (natural/supernatural) world. A tornado hits a house and misses all the others… “That’s terrible, we’ll never understand why it befell them only, but it’s our responsibility to try and figure out if there are things we can do to help prevent even a single death in such future natural calamities. And, just maybe, divine intervention prevented it from being much worse.”

 

[TLK Valentine]

As I said, we’ll never understand. If some calamity kills 15 people instead of 250, would you know, see it as, or even consider divine intervention?

It would make me consider why those 15 didn't merit divine intervention.

 

[Caliban]

You would need to know the purpose of the miracles. Most of the time they were used to point the people towards Christ. Other times to confirm the truth of who Christ Jesus was.

Not in the Hebrew Bible.