Literal miracles in the Bible?

[TLK Valentine]

Now, for this thread, I want to define "miracle" as "The overt suspension of natural laws by the divine or agent of the divine in order to achieve a divine purpose."

That said, are the miracle stories as they are described in the Old and New Testaments meant to be interpreted as depictions of actual events?

And if so, do those depictions bring people closer to an understanding of God, or further away?

Because it seems to me that stories of a God who can miraculously bend/break the natural laws of the universe at will raise a lot of awkward questions about the countless times He chooses not to.

Consider:

• God rains manna from the heavens to feed the Israelites.... today, millions are starving.
• God -- either personally or through His prophets -- heals the sick and infirm and even raises the dead... today, millions suffer and die.
• God -- again either personally or through His prophets -- commands the forces of nature... today, drought, storms, earthquakes, etc... kill millions.

Now, I'm not asking "why do bad things happen?" But rather, "would we even have to ask these questions if we didn't assume that miracles were actual historic acts?"

Thoughts?

 

[-57]

Now, for this thread, I want to define "miracle" as "The overt suspension of natural laws by the divine or agent of the divine in order to achieve a divine purpose."

That said, are the miracle stories as they are described in the Old and New Testaments meant to be interpreted as depictions of actual events?

And if so, do those depictions bring people closer to an understanding of God, or further away?

Because it seems to me that stories of a God who can miraculously bend/break the natural laws of the universe at will raise a lot of awkward questions about the countless times He chooses not to.

Consider:

• God rains manna from the heavens to feed the Israelites.... today, millions are starving.
• God -- either personally or through His prophets -- heals the sick and infirm and even raises the dead... today, millions suffer and die.
• God -- again either personally or through His prophets -- commands the forces of nature... today, drought, storms, earthquakes, etc... kill millions.

Now, I'm not asking "why do bad things happen?" But rather, "would we even have to ask these questions if we didn't assume that miracles were actual historic acts?"

Thoughts?

You would need to know the purpose of the miracles. Most of the time they were used to point the people towards Christ. Other times to confirm the truth of who Christ Jesus was.

 

[TLK Valentine]

You would need to know the purpose of the miracles. Most of the time they were used to point the people towards Christ. Other times to confirm the truth of who Christ Jesus was.

The thing about this answer is that it doesn't fit in with the miracle stories in the Old Testament. If anything, Jesus' miracles point back to them.

(let's not forget that Jesus didn't have a monopoly on the miraculous)

 

[icxn]

...Thoughts?

Lazarus suffered and died and found eternal rest. Abraham was rich and charitable and was there to welcome him. Both depend on/need each other.

God, can of course intervene and fix everything in this life, but then there would be no opportunity for virtue and rewards for patience and charity...

 

[-57]

The thing about this answer is that it doesn't fit in with the miracle stories in the Old Testament. If anything, Jesus' miracles point back to them.

(let's not forget that Jesus didn't have a monopoly on the miraculous)

I suppose next you'll want to know why Moses parted the Red Sea rather than have everybody walk on the water like Jesus did.

 

[cloudyday2]

Now, I'm not asking "why do bad things happen?" But rather, "would we even have to ask these questions if we didn't assume that miracles were actual historic acts?"

It seems to me that the miracles cause us to ask questions regardless of whether we understand them to be history or fable.

If we don't believe that God performed miraculous healings of the sick in the human ministry of Jesus then we still must ask why God inspired fables about healing of the sick after creating a world where sickness is natural. What is God trying to say with those fables?

I suppose an answer might be that the ministry of Jesus whether history or fable was often sayings that began as "the Kingdom of Heaven is like..." So maybe fables about healing the sick were meant to say that sickness will not exist in the Kingdom of Heaven or that the Kingdom of Heaven is about healing or something.

 

[eleos1954]

Now, for this thread, I want to define "miracle" as "The overt suspension of natural laws by the divine or agent of the divine in order to achieve a divine purpose."

That said, are the miracle stories as they are described in the Old and New Testaments meant to be interpreted as depictions of actual events?

And if so, do those depictions bring people closer to an understanding of God, or further away?

Because it seems to me that stories of a God who can miraculously bend/break the natural laws of the universe at will raise a lot of awkward questions about the countless times He chooses not to.

Consider:

• God rains manna from the heavens to feed the Israelites.... today, millions are starving.
• God -- either personally or through His prophets -- heals the sick and infirm and even raises the dead... today, millions suffer and die.
• God -- again either personally or through His prophets -- commands the forces of nature... today, drought, storms, earthquakes, etc... kill millions.

Now, I'm not asking "why do bad things happen?" But rather, "would we even have to ask these questions if we didn't assume that miracles were actual historic acts?"

Thoughts?

We experience the results of sin in the world. We also experience the goodness of God in the world.

We are in the middle of a war (war between good & evil) .... battles continuously taking place.

We know the war has ultimately been won and we look forward to Jesus' returning to redeem all the survivors.

We trust God knows all things ... he knows the beginning to the end ... we certainly do not.

He is honest about what we will experience in this world.

John 16:33

33I have told you these things so that in Me you may have peace. In the world you will have tribulation. But take courage; I have overcome the world!

John 14:27
Peace I leave with you; My peace I give to you. I do not give to you as the world gives. Do not let your hearts be troubled; do not be afraid.

His spirit still strives with us ... but not always will. And when He chooses, He will return and end the "sin problem" forever. AMEN!

God didn't start the war .... but He will indeed end it. How long this war goes on ... we do not know. We do know it will.

Why sometimes He intervenes and sometimes not? He goes through everything with us.

Romans 8:38-39

For I am sure that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.

and ... we do trust in Him.

It really isn't about this world .... it's about getting ready for the next one ... where sin and it's consequences will be nonexistent for eternity! AMEN!

There are more to be saved, only He knows ... and until there becomes a time when not one single human being (present & future) is not savable (that is ... all have made their decision to follow the Lord) or not .... the war and it's after math continues.

He WILL end it .... we just don't know when.


Even so ...... come Lord Jesus! AMEN.

 

[Sketcher]

Now, for this thread, I want to define "miracle" as "The overt suspension of natural laws by the divine or agent of the divine in order to achieve a divine purpose."

That said, are the miracle stories as they are described in the Old and New Testaments meant to be interpreted as depictions of actual events?

And if so, do those depictions bring people closer to an understanding of God, or further away?

Because it seems to me that stories of a God who can miraculously bend/break the natural laws of the universe at will raise a lot of awkward questions about the countless times He chooses not to.

Consider:

• God rains manna from the heavens to feed the Israelites.... today, millions are starving.
• God -- either personally or through His prophets -- heals the sick and infirm and even raises the dead... today, millions suffer and die.
• God -- again either personally or through His prophets -- commands the forces of nature... today, drought, storms, earthquakes, etc... kill millions.

Now, I'm not asking "why do bad things happen?" But rather, "would we even have to ask these questions if we didn't assume that miracles were actual historic acts?"

Thoughts?

I believe that people would ask those questions regardless, and some would find a way to vilify God regardless. The question I would ask is, should the accounts of miracles drive people away from God?

If there were no miracles, why would someone believe in a personal God? One can philosophize to get to "yes," but miracles make it easier.
If miracles happened all the time, why would we consider them special? If they are not special, what is the point of paying attention to them?
What is the point of performing a miracle? Is it simply for the sake of being nice? I don't believe so, as you pointed out, many people go hungry and sick and die today, and natural disasters harm many people. The Bible even talks about this since there is plenty of suffering in the Bible. Rather, miracles serve a supernatural purpose as part of a means to authenticate divine messages. People getting ideas is normal, but raising the dead, or curing the sick without medicine, or curing the blind and the lame, multiplying food resources, making an axhead float, fire from Heaven coming down - these are not normal, and if they happened, we need to ask why they happened when they did. What purpose did they serve? We have to answer the "why" before we can rightly ask "why not."

 

[TLK Valentine]

Lazarus suffered and died and found eternal rest. Abraham was rich and charitable and was there to welcome him. Both depend on/need each other.

God, can of course intervene and fix everything in this life, but then there would be no opportunity for virtue and rewards for patience and charity...

Then why intervene at all?

 

[Pavel Mosko]

Thoughts?

For the most part miracles (and similar supernatural phenomenon) are only for encouraging and preserving "the faithful" or believers. At times there can be some secondary effects where outsiders are converted like the centurion that witnessed the Crucifixion (Matthew 27:54, Mark 15:39), but that is more the exception not the rule.

 

[TLK Valentine]

I suppose next you'll want to know why Moses parted the Red Sea rather than have everybody walk on the water like Jesus did.

I'm trying to have a serious theological discussion here about the meaning of the miracle stories in the Bible. You can either contribute to that discussion, of continue to "suppose."

 

[JIMINZ]

Now, for this thread, I want to define "miracle" as "The overt suspension of natural laws by the divine or agent of the divine in order to achieve a divine purpose."

That said, are the miracle stories as they are described in the Old and New Testaments meant to be interpreted as depictions of actual events?

And if so, do those depictions bring people closer to an understanding of God, or further away?

Because it seems to me that stories of a God who can miraculously bend/break the natural laws of the universe at will raise a lot of awkward questions about the countless times He chooses not to.

Consider:

• God rains manna from the heavens to feed the Israelites.... today, millions are starving.
• God -- either personally or through His prophets -- heals the sick and infirm and even raises the dead... today, millions suffer and die.
• God -- again either personally or through His prophets -- commands the forces of nature... today, drought, storms, earthquakes, etc... kill millions.

Now, I'm not asking "why do bad things happen?" But rather, "would we even have to ask these questions if we didn't assume that miracles were actual historic acts?"

Thoughts?

In all my years as a Christian I have found, every time this list of questions has been asked they are only asked by those who are Atheists, Agnostics, or just Unsaved.

Born Again Believers don't ask these questions, why do you suppose that is?

The following Scripture will not only answer your questions, but answer mine as well, as to why Christians don't ask these questions.

1Co 2:11-14
11) For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
12) Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
13) Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
14) But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

 

[TLK Valentine]

It seems to me that the miracles cause us to ask questions regardless of whether we understand them to be history or fable.

If we don't believe that God performed miraculous healings of the sick in the human ministry of Jesus then we still must ask why God inspired fables about healing of the sick after creating a world where sickness is natural. What is God trying to say with those fables?

This assumes that being inspired to write by God means word-for-word dictation, using the authors of the Bible as little more than human tape recorders. What if it was more complicated than that?

What if God inspired the idea, but left the writers to their own devices (and their own free will) to express those ideas to the best of their abilities? And what if miracle stories were the best that those writers can come up with to try to express God in the human language available to ancient Israel?

Language is a tool, and a tool has limits... Suppose Beethoven was inspired to compose the Ninth Symphony, but doesn't have an orchestra or even a piano close at hand... can he describe it to someone using nothing but language?

I'm not talking "da-da-da-daaaaaa...." I mean actual words. Would "okay, it starts with an allegro ma non troppo in D minor in the first movement, then gets a little scherzo in the second..." etc., really do it justice? I don't see how.

Language is limited; the divine is not. So what if the miracle language was the writers' way of attempting to express the sheer "Godliness" of what they were inspired to write?

I suppose an answer might be that the ministry of Jesus whether history or fable was often sayings that began as "the Kingdom of Heaven is like..." So maybe fables about healing the sick were meant to say that sickness will not exist in the Kingdom of Heaven or that the Kingdom of Heaven is about healing or something.

Personally, I think the miracles of Jesus are there to express an idea of wholeness. The idea that God is wholeness: physically, mentally, emotionally, spiritually, etc., etc..., would be teased by the writers of the New Testament.

But those are very different from the Moses/Joshua miracles of the Old Testament... those were a lot more... shall we say, brutal? Still,it would be the most useful way for the writers to express to an audience (who were probably familiar with fables and myths) that God was with these men.

 

[icxn]

Then why intervene at all?

For the same reason parents intervene and help their children, especially when they are young.

 

[TLK Valentine]

In all my years as a Christian I have found, every time this list of questions has been asked they are only asked by those who are Atheists, Agnostics, or just Unsaved.

Born Again Believers don't ask these questions, why do you suppose that is?

My experience with "Born Again Believers" has been that such questions are generally not encouraged.

The following Scripture will not only answer your questions, but answer mine as well, as to why Christians don't ask these questions.

1Co 2:11-14
11) For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
12) Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
13) Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
14) But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

And this is one of the reasons why those questions are not encouraged... because the "Spiritual Man" is supposed to already know these things, and the "natural man" not only does not, but cannot. To ask the question is to admit ignorance... and to admit ignorance of the things of God.

Hans Christian Andersen once wrote a short story addressing this same problem: The Emperor's New Clothes - Wikipedia

 

[TLK Valentine]

For the same reason parents intervene and help their children, especially when they are young.

Why stop, then? Because the children are gown up?

Are we, as God's children, "all grown up" now?

 

[JIMINZ]

My experience with "Born Again Believers" has been that such questions are generally not encouraged.



And this is one of the reasons why those questions are not encouraged... because the "Spiritual Man" is supposed to already know these things, and the "natural man" not only does not, but cannot. To ask the question is to admit ignorance... and to admit ignorance of the things of God.

Hans Christian Andersen once wrote a short story addressing this same problem: The Emperor's New Clothes - Wikipedia

That, is the perfect answer, proving the Scripture provided.

 

[JIMINZ]

This assumes that being inspired to write by God means word-for-word dictation, using the authors of the Bible as little more than human tape recorders.

Inspired, Inspiration

Theological
1. a divine influence directly and immediately exerted upon the mind or soul.
2. the divine quality of the writings or words of a person so influenced.

 

[Silmarien]

Now, for this thread, I want to define "miracle" as "The overt suspension of natural laws by the divine or agent of the divine in order to achieve a divine purpose."

That said, are the miracle stories as they are described in the Old and New Testaments meant to be interpreted as depictions of actual events?

And if so, do those depictions bring people closer to an understanding of God, or further away?

Because it seems to me that stories of a God who can miraculously bend/break the natural laws of the universe at will raise a lot of awkward questions about the countless times He chooses not to.

Consider:

• God rains manna from the heavens to feed the Israelites.... today, millions are starving.
• God -- either personally or through His prophets -- heals the sick and infirm and even raises the dead... today, millions suffer and die.
• God -- again either personally or through His prophets -- commands the forces of nature... today, drought, storms, earthquakes, etc... kill millions.

Now, I'm not asking "why do bad things happen?" But rather, "would we even have to ask these questions if we didn't assume that miracles were actual historic acts?"

Thoughts?

This makes me think a little bit of Luke 4:23-27, where Jesus does quite explicitly point out that the prophets only rarely and selectively performed miracles. Seems like it isn't the sort of thing that you can just demand.

I do think the miracles of both the Old and New Testament are meant to be taken literally, just as heroic stories elsewhere in Antiquity seem to have been taken literally. This wasn't a world where people thought that their gods weren't active in history, so I think it would be stranger if the ancient Jews understood everything metaphorically. That seems to have been a later development (see Philo of Alexandria).

I personally don't really believe in the major miracles of the Old Testament, but I think it would be anachronistic to project that back on the actual authors of the Hebrew Bible. I also don't see a theological problem with the possibility of selective miracles throughout Israel's history--given the idea of omnipotence, God could miraculous bend or break the laws of nature even if he never chose to do so, so I don't see much of a difference between never acting and only occasionally acting where the Problem of Evil is concerned.

 

[-57]

I'm trying to have a serious theological discussion here about the meaning of the miracle stories in the Bible. You can either contribute to that discussion, of continue to "suppose."

Really? You blew me off in post 3.