Lines of Evidence

[lewiscalledhimmaster]

The Bible is a compilation of many books, authors, subject matter etc.

To compare the style of the two books you mentioned, Genesis and The Revelation of Jesus to John, would be like comparing the music of Keith Green to Owl City. They are totally different.

What about the Garden of Eden?

God did not say He formed man Himself and breathed life into his nostrils, then made woman from his rib, so that I could interprit that as symbolic, metaphorical or poetic. It's written that way so it will be taken as a fact.

I think the story telling device, might not have been as literal as one might want it to be. Perhaps looking at it a different way, might yield a very different meaning. I'll let it rest, as I don't really have a view about that.

 

[SkyWriting]

No it isn't, it's a theory. A fact is something entirely different.

It is both, as the dead Sci fiction writer once said.

What can be proven. that you and you sister are different, but not mutations, is easy to test and is a fact. Anything about the past is a theory and untestable. Evidence can mound to support theories about the past, but we can't test them so they will always remain theories.

 

[SkyWriting]

What about the Garden of Eden?

That is a story best understood as a literal place.
It's hard to describe a place where everything is everlasting
yet moves. Normally we only see reality as decaying.

 

[lewiscalledhimmaster]

I certainly do not intend to convince anyone here of anything. I am here to simply defend the truth of the Bible from the lies of modern thinking, bullying and insisting on the TOE.

Why should you want to do that? The Bible isn't the topic of this thread -- it's simply about gathering the LINES OF EVIDENCE for EVOLUTION.
Should you wish to start a thread of you own, where you challenge the evidence with alternate scientific theories, then I suggest you go right on ahead with that.

 

[lewiscalledhimmaster]

That is a story best understood as a literal place.
It's hard to describe a place where everything is everlasting
yet moves. Normally we only see reality as decaying.

It's easy enough to come up with a tale, and as time ticks away -- it goes from being one thing to being another. How long does it take for a legend to begin?
Oh, and just in case you missed what I said to JacksBratt -- if you wanna do the religious rap, please save it for another thread - this one is about gathering evidence for Evolution, not Creation.

Bye-bye.

 

[lewiscalledhimmaster]

I'm officially abandoning this thread as a lost cause. I shall be starting another one, beginning where we left off.
Thanks to those who actually contributed, to the rest of you - shame on you, for being such terrible trolls.

 

[TLK Valentine]

Scientists catch fruit fly disguising itself as four distinct species - CSMonitor.com

"Last year, researchers found that the Philippine and Asian Papaya fruit flies were indistinguishable. This week, a United Nations-backed study published in the journal Systematic Entomology, reveals that two more types – the Oriental and Invasive fruit flies – are genetically identical not only to each other, but also to the other pairing. All four will now be known as the Oriental fruit fly, or Bactrocera dorsalis."

Are you sure that the fruit flies in question really are different species? How can you be sure?

Generally speaking, the definition is whether or not the two groups can breed with one another and produce viable and fertile offspring.

 

[TLK Valentine]

I'm officially abandoning this thread as a lost cause. I shall be starting another one, beginning where we left off.
Thanks to those who actually contributed, to the rest of you - shame on you, for being such terrible trolls.

They're only going to follow you; it's what they do.

If you give up, they claim victory; it's what they do.

You can't change their minds; you can only let them expose themselves for what they are.

 

[lewiscalledhimmaster]

They're only going to follow you; it's what they do.

If you give up, they claim victory; it's what they do.

You can't change their minds; you can only let them expose themselves for what they are.

Thanks for the heads up.

 

[Zosimus]

Hello again Zosimus,

This thread was started with the goal of gathering evidence, for the theory of evolution. If you have a general theory which defeats the theory of evolution, why don't you start a thread of your own -- where you present that -- and also have it scrutinized and reviewed.

Now to this thread. Should you want to participate here, then how about presenting the evidence from the Fossil Record -- for the starter: here

You don't seem to get it.

In order to get evidence for evolution you need to examine alleles.

You cannot examine alleles on a forum such as this one.

What you can do on a forum such as this one is point out the impossibility of obtaining evidence for something as it violates commonly accepted rules of logic.

Or I could point out that whenever people say that evidence is necessary, they have no evidence to back that claim up. That's the kind of thing that I do. I don't examine alleles. Even if I did, I wouldn't do so on a forum.

 

[TLK Valentine]

What you can do on a forum such as this one is point out the impossibility of obtaining evidence for something as it violates commonly accepted rules of logic.

Then feel free to point that out, if you feel you can.

Or I could point out that whenever people say that evidence is necessary, they have no evidence to back that claim up. That's the kind of thing that I do. I don't examine alleles. Even if I did, I wouldn't do so on a forum.

Then, if you don't mind me saying so, you don't have a whole lot to contribute to the discussion.

 

[lewiscalledhimmaster]

<blah blah blah> I wouldn't do so on a forum.

 

[TLK Valentine]

I certainly do not intend to convince anyone here of anything. I am here to simply defend the truth of the Bible from the lies of modern thinking, bullying and insisting on the TOE.

So, you're convinced that the TOE is a form of bullying?

That "modern thinking" is a lie?

That the Bible, the inspired word of God to man, needs you to defend it from the likes of... us? Really?

Be nice if we believed that too, wouldn't it?

 

[Zosimus]

Generally speaking, the definition is whether or not the two groups can breed with one another and produce viable and fertile offspring.

As I have posted before, I provide you with Dolphin Love Child: How 2 Species Made a Third wherein we read that two distinct dolphin species have interbred creating a third species.

In conclusion, you can insist until you foam at the mouth that everyone agrees that the definition of a species is when two creatures cannot interbreed. This is not true. There are, in fact, other species concepts floating around out there.

Additionally, I have yet to hear anyone suggest a viable manner in which we can determine whether two fossils were able to interbreed during their lifetime. How, therefore, can anyone look at a fossil and say, "This is a completely new species!" ?

 

[TLK Valentine]

As I have posted before, I provide you with Dolphin Love Child: How 2 Species Made a Third wherein we read that two distinct dolphin species have interbred creating a third species.

In conclusion, you can insist until you foam at the mouth that everyone agrees that the definition of a species is when two creatures cannot interbreed. This is not true. There are, in fact, other species concepts floating around out there.

Well, had you bothered to read closely, you would've seen that I said "generally speaking." Your own article points out that hybridization is rare, although it does occur.

 

[Gracchus]

As I have posted before, I provide you with Dolphin Love Child: How 2 Species Made a Third wherein we read that two distinct dolphin species have interbred creating a third species.

Indeed, it does happen, and far more often in plants than in animals.

In conclusion, you can insist until you foam at the mouth that everyone agrees that the definition of a species is when two creatures cannot interbreed. This is not true. There are, in fact, other species concepts floating around out there.

"Definition" is from the Latin, and means (approximately ) concerning boundaries, or limits. The sharpest lines are, when examined closely, fuzzy. Words can be even fuzzier.

Additionally, I have yet to hear anyone suggest a viable manner in which we can determine whether two fossils were able to interbreed during their lifetime. How, therefore, can anyone look at a fossil and say, "This is a completely new species!" ?

Nevertheless, when a naturalist in -- say New Guinea, asks a native about the animals, he almost always finds that the natives give separate names to what he has defined as separate species. And sometimes the differences are just behavioral.

And still, although chihuahuas and Great Danes are the same species they probably couldn't interbreed outside of a petri dish.

It is good to keep in mind that reality does not fit into sharply distinct categories.

 

[TLK Valentine]

And still, although chihuahuas and Great Danes are the same species they probably couldn't interbreed outside of a petri dish.

Indeed -- genetically, they can interbreed.... it's the logistics of it that are tricky...

Maybe if we gave the chihuahua a stepladder?

 

[lewiscalledhimmaster]

It is good to keep in mind that reality does not fit into sharply distinct categories.

I'm currently reading up on the definition of species at Berkley, and it's certainly quite a lot to get inside my old head -- Evolution 101: Speciation | Evolution 101: Speciation | Evolution 101: Speciation

On the first page, right at the bottom they use the same words:

'....There are lots of other places where the boundary of a species is blurred. It’s not so surprising that these blurry places exist—after all, the idea of a species is something that we humans invented for our own convenience!'

 

[lewiscalledhimmaster]

Well, had you bothered to read closely, you would've seen that I said "generally speaking." Your own article points out that hybridization is rare, although it does occur.

Aha, it took awhile, but I think I've got it, by George I've got it -- or not?

'the production of offspring from different parental forms. For example, if two recognizably different species of plant fertilized one another and produced viable, fertile offspring, the process would be called hybridization.'

Evolution 101: Speciation

 

[lewiscalledhimmaster]

Now to this little point of yours:

.... whenever people say that evidence is necessary, they have no evidence to back that claim up. ....

Lines of Evidence