Lines of Evidence

[Kylie]

<<SNIP VIDEO>>

Could you take the S out after the HTTP bit of the link, because it's throwing out the formatting...

 

[lewiscalledhimmaster]

Could you take the S out after the HTTP bit of the link, because it's throwing out the formatting...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tO4X8_c80kg

 

[Kylie]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tO4X8_c80kg

I meant for you to edit your previous post, lol!

 

[lewiscalledhimmaster]

And it's very informative about you...

KTS, AV1611VET is very disruptive and doesn't really want to engage the topic here. To engage AV1611VET is pointless, and will only lead to further disruption.

There seem to be plenty of people here, who even though they are Christians here who would like to have a meaningful chat -- don't want to waste there time, when there are so many 'pointless' interruptions.

I'm sure the site owners and moderators are aware of this, and in due course will ask AV1611VET to move along.

 

[lewiscalledhimmaster]

I meant for you to edit your previous post, lol!

I did, but it didn't take at first -- Job Done.

There is another one, but I thought that the ending to this one -- was rather cute.

In a world where everyone is arguing about religion, it's so nice to find something we can all do without killing each other.

 

[Kylie]

KTS, AV1611VET is very disruptive and doesn't really want to engage the topic here. To engage AV1611VET is pointless, and will only lead to further disruption.

There seem to be plenty of people here, who even though they are Christians here who would like to have a meaningful chat -- don't want to waste there time, when there are so many 'pointless' interruptions.

I'm sure the site owners and moderators are aware of this, and in due course will ask AV1611VET to move along.

I'm fully aware of what AV is like. But hey, everyone needs a hobby, and defeating AV in debates is mine.

 

[lewiscalledhimmaster]

I'm fully aware of what AV is like. But hey, everyone needs a hobby, and defeating AV in debates is mine.

If that includes doing so on unrelated threads, then perhaps it might be better if you take you fight elsewhere -- as AV seems quite incapable of engaging the topic here.

 

[Gracchus]

Francis Collins can take a hike.

He's apparently sold his soul to deep time.

KTS, AV1611VET is very disruptive and doesn't really want to engage the topic here. To engage AV1611VET is pointless, and will only lead to further disruption.

There seem to be plenty of people here, who even though they are Christians here who would like to have a meaningful chat -- don't want to waste there time, when there are so many 'pointless' interruptions.

I'm sure the site owners and moderators are aware of this, and in due course will ask AV1611VET to move along.

I'm sorry lewiscalledhimmaster, but AV1611VET has been posting here for nearly eight years. In that time he has told nearly everyone and everything disagreeing with him to "take a hike", including God. (If God told him, that the King James Bible was not the inerrant word of God, then God could "take a hike.")

If everyone whom he has told to take a hike, had actually left the forums, he would probably be the only one posting here, and he would post, even if it were only another of his counting threads. (He ran up his post count by posting numbers, because that gave him reputation points. I kid you not!)

I have been posting here about 14 years now, and I do remember a time before "Physical & Life Sciences" and "Creation & Evolution" had become the "Look at me! I am the infallible AV1611VET" Show. He's kind of like the cat that jumps on your keyboard when you are trying to post. I suspect he just wants attention.

He almost always derails a thread and will always try, sometimes even his own.

But the mods are not likely to ban him.

Can we get back on topic now?

 

[lewiscalledhimmaster]

Hi Gracchus,

I'm sorry lewiscalledhimmaster, but AV1611VET has been posting here for nearly eight years. In that time he has told nearly everyone and everything disagreeing with him to "take a hike", including God. (If God told him, that the King James Bible was not the inerrant word of God, then God could "take a hike.")

Big Chief 'Take A Hike'

If everyone whom he has told to take a hike, had actually left the forums, he would probably be the only one posting here, and he would post, even if it were only another of his counting threads. (He ran up his post count by posting numbers, because that gave him reputation points. I kid you not!)

I have been posting here about 14 years now, and I do remember a time before "Physical & Life Sciences" and "Creation & Evolution" had become the "Look at me! I am the infallible AV1611VET" Show. He's kind of like the cat that jumps on your keyboard when you are trying to post. I suspect he just wants attention.

He almost always derails a thread and will always try, sometimes even his own.

But the mods are not likely to ban him.

Can we get back on topic now?

I've tried that a few times already, but like a rusted old Harley Davidson, it just won't start anymore.

 

[AV1611VET]

If everyone whom he has told to take a hike, had actually left the forums,

Can you name one poster or ex-poster here whom I have told to take a hike?

 

[SkyWriting]

Also, funnily enough, the ACTUAL word that translates to 'small child' is 'infant'.

Strange how you mixed that up.

EDIT: Actually scartch that, it's something else. Not even close to 'fetus', though

I was wrong. The word is a bit wider meaning than you offered and
encompasses more of the entire process, rather than a small segment.

filled with young, pregnant, breeding, with young
fruitful, productive
filled, full
that has brought forth, newly delivered, nursing

Perhaps the Latin dictionary is better than a Wiki?
Definition of fetus (adjective, LEM, f&#275;tus) - Numen - The Latin Lexicon - An Online Latin Dictionary

http://www.archives.nd.edu/cgi-bin/lookup.pl?stem=fetus

 

[Zosimus]

It won't be much of a chat if you are too lazy to find out for yourself will it?
It's your problem so you solve it, go to a site that explains evolution for children.

BTW evolution is a fact whether we believe it or not.

If by evolution you mean that the frequency of alleles can change from generation to generation, then I agree with you.

If by evolution you mean something else, then I disagree with you.

 

[Zosimus]

A fact is data.
If the data forms a mathematically predictable pattern it is labelled a law.
A hypothesis is an idea proposed to explain the data.
A theory is a hypothesis that has been confirmed by evidence.

"If the data forms (sic) a mathematically predictable pattern, it is labelled a law."

Data is normally used as plural. However, in this sentence you have used it in a singular fashion. This makes your meaning unclear. When you say "It is labelled a law" do you mean the pattern or the data?

When you say that a theory is a hypothesis that has been confirmed by evidence–how do you propose that evidence confirm a theory?

 

[Zosimus]

Not a scientist by trade, but I'll take a crack at "speciation events."

A speciation event is the point where one species becomes two. This most commonly happens when members of one species are separated from the rest, and are forced to live in a different environment, under different conditions, from the others.

According to Natural Selection, it's pressures from the environment which guide a species' evolution. Therefore, if two members of the same species are forced to live in different environments, they would evolve along different paths.... a fork in the road, as it were

Eventually, the paths would diverge so far from one another that members of one group would not be able to breed with members of the other -- which is more or less the sign of a separate species... that point would be the "speciation event."

There are plenty of real-life examples one could Google, but as my strength is more in literature, let me try a literary example:

Have you ever read The Time Machine, by H.G. Wells, or seen either of the movies? Long story short, in the future after WWIII, many humans fled underground to escape the cataclysm, while the rest took their chances on the surface.

The ones who stayed on the surface were known as the Eloi, and looked and behaved very much like the humans we are familiar with.

(Photos from the 1960 film and 2002 remake, respectively)

The ones who stayed underground, however, were the Morlocks, who had changed considerably -- hundreds, if not thousands, of generations living underground will have an effect on you.

Now, could Eloi and Morlocks interbreed? The story never addresses that, IIRC, but if not, then the point where they no longer could -- the generation of Morlock that was was so divergent from Eloi that cross-breeding would no longer produce a viable offspring -- would be the speciation event.

Again, there are plenty of real-world cases which parallel this, but in all fairness, it is a good movie.

Make sense?

In a sense, I agree with you. A speciation event is where one species is classified as two. However, there is no universally acceptable definition of species. Even biologists argue about the meaning of the word and whether certain animals belong to one species or another. Even the simplest concept– that a species is a group of organisms that interbreed–is problematic. In many cases different species do interbreed and form fertile offspring. Bacteria do not interbreed, and so every bacterium should be classified as its own species under the definition.

It is impossible to say whether speciation occurs. As such, we should remain agnostic about the possibility at least until the meaning of the concept becomes clear.

 

[Zosimus]

Kinda -- At first I thought the photographs were from Planet of the Apes

Here's a little science from Berkley:

'Speciation is a lineage-splitting event that produces two or more separate species. ....'
Evolution 101: Speciation

So what's wrong with the fruit-fly example?

Scientists catch fruit fly disguising itself as four distinct species - CSMonitor.com

"Last year, researchers found that the Philippine and Asian Papaya fruit flies were indistinguishable. This week, a United Nations-backed study published in the journal Systematic Entomology, reveals that two more types – the Oriental and Invasive fruit flies – are genetically identical not only to each other, but also to the other pairing. All four will now be known as the Oriental fruit fly, or Bactrocera dorsalis."

Are you sure that the fruit flies in question really are different species? How can you be sure?

 

[lewiscalledhimmaster]

Hi Zosimus,

This thread was started with the goal of gathering evidence, for the theory of evolution. If you have a general theory which defeats the theory of evolution, why don't you start a thread of your own -- where you present that -- and also have it scrutinized and reviewed.

Now to this thread. Should you want to participate here, then how about presenting the evidence from the Fossil Record -- for the starter: here

 

[Zosimus]

Hi Zosimus,

This thread was started with the goal of gathering evidence, for the theory of evolution. If you have a general theory which defeats the theory of evolution, why don't you start a thread of your own -- where you present that -- and also have it scrutinized and reviewed.

Now to this thread. Should you want to participate here, then how about presenting the evidence from the Fossil Record -- for the starter: here

What is "evolution?" Properly understood evolution is simply the fact that things change. Biological evolution, in fact, can be defined as the change in the frequency of alleles from generation to generation.

Why does evolution happen? There are many reasons. Sexual reproduction practically guarantees that the frequency of alleles will change. For example, if a couple has only one child, it will be impossible for that one child to have copies of all of the alleles of both parents. Even if the couple has an even number of children the likelihood that each allele will be faithfully represented in the right proportions in the following generation is remote. Additionally during both meiosis and mitosis certain copying errors are made. It is estimated that humans receive three harmful mutations, zero beneficial mutations, and a large number of neutral mutations per generation. In addition, many types of bacteria engage in horizontal gene transfers to add desired features from other bacteria around.
------------
Now in any normal world what I have just broken down above would be the law and theory of evolution. As you can easily see, the fossil record has fact all to do with evolution.

Surely you must be referring to the The Theory Of Common Descent. On the previous page, we find the three scientific questions posed, and I will provide you with the answers:

1. Can we prove that there was a single common ancestor?
2. Can we prove we've drawn the diagram correctly?
3. Where did the ancestor come from?

Answers:

1. No.
2. No.
3. No one knows.

How does the fossil record fit in? Well, if you want to get a good grade in your biology class, try reading Fossil Evidence Supports Evolution, which unfortunately is written by someone who has no clue about the difference between evolution and common descent.

Now if you get assigned a logic class, or you want to actually do critical reasoning as opposed to merely regurgitating the "right" answers, let me know and I'll be glad to help.

Or you could just learn How To Use Google.

 

[lewiscalledhimmaster]

Hello again Zosimus,

This thread was started with the goal of gathering evidence, for the theory of evolution. If you have a general theory which defeats the theory of evolution, why don't you start a thread of your own -- where you present that -- and also have it scrutinized and reviewed.

Now to this thread. Should you want to participate here, then how about presenting the evidence from the Fossil Record -- for the starter: here

<edit> the fossil record has fact all to do with evolution.

 

[JacksBratt]

I said the same sort of thing to the students at our church, when they gently tried to pry my hands off my great big old King James Bible. (okay, some laughed behind my back) One thing I love about this pathway we're on, is that just like Einstein and St. Paul stated -- there are some things we understand, some we don't and a whole lot more that we won't understand until we can ask the Progenitor.

Jack, the goal of this thread was not to address my KJO-YEC, but rather the 'Lines of Evidence' for Evolution -- but thanks for allowing me to share an aspect of my own journey out of "literal" blindness, which enabled me the freedom to question things that others blindly believe without question.

Even the late professor of linguistics (?) C.S. Lewis, knew well enough not to move to fast from belief in God to belief in the Son of God. Yet he was eventually convinced by the compassion showed him by his peers -- Tolkien and Dyson, and even the late GK Chesterton's 'Everlasting Man' played a significant role in helping him move forward to a more pliable and less dogmatic view of the Genesis account.

If you hold to a literal view of the book of Genesis, I'd hate to know how you have managed the book of Revelation. Another discussion for another thread -- much the same as these discussions about 'words and the meanings of words' which have/are tying up this thread and missing the opportunity to talk about Fossils and Human Evolution - something which Darwin didn't write much about, but for which we now have quite a considerable collection of human fossils.

I'll hold back and see if anyone of the bright Evolutionists, or Theistic Evolutionists can venture some sort of guidance with regard to the evidence for the Fossil record with regard to Human Evolution. (read back for my summary thread - which seems to be drowning under a flood of cupidity)

The Bible is a compilation of many books, authors, subject matter etc.

To compare the style of the two books you mentioned, Genesis and The Revelation of Jesus to John, would be like comparing the music of Keith Green to Owl City. They are totally different.

God did not say He formed man Himself and breathed life into his nostrils, then made woman from his rib, so that I could interprit that as symbolic, metaphorical or poetic. It's written that way so it will be taken as a fact.

 

[JacksBratt]

And what are you hoping to convince people of?

I certainly do not intend to convince anyone here of anything. I am here to simply defend the truth of the Bible from the lies of modern thinking, bullying and insisting on the TOE.