Limited atonement !

[fhansen]

@fhansen



Start with this Ezk 36:26-27

26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them

Then ask God for faith to believe what you read

Already addressed this, and, again all the bible. I also like Jer 31:33:
“I will put my law in their minds
and write it on their hearts."

But going by the whole counsel of scripture, that doesn't mean I cannot still thwart that intention, that grace. Either way, good fruit is still the best evidence.

 

[Rescued One]

You need to study all of your bible. You focus on the carrots only and ignore the sticks. I have a healthy view of God, certainly as one who is sane-not saving some, for no reason other than the mere act of believing a few truths and without regard to what they do and choose, while damning the rest to eternal torment likewise without regard to their choice. My God loves all, died for all, wants none to perish but even that love allows us to go our own way if we so choose by the end of the day. The most concise yet profound teachuing on this bears repeating:
"At the evening of life we shall be judged on our love."

I doubt that you believe in my God. I study, study, study the Bible; I imagine I study as much or more than you. You apparently think you have to earn God's love. I love people and serve a loving merciful God. The only people who aren't saved are those who reject His word. I don't know why you want your own way more than God's.

And this kind of love, His kind of love, if we have any understanding, is necessarily both a gift of grace-and a human choice to accept and act upon or express that gift. -only possible as we're connected to the Vine. That's your justice/righteousness defined.

Christ purchased my salvation and will complete the work He began. I am saved forever, not temporarily. Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, He is with me! It doesn't get any better! Not only am I connected to the Vine, but the Holy Spirit resides in me! Does God's spirit live in you? If not, you are none of His. I CHOOSE THE TRIUNE GOD! Who do you choose?

 

[Rescued One]

All over the addressed this, and, again all the bible. I also like Jer 31:33:
“I will put my law in their minds
and write it on their hearts."

But going by the whole counsel of scripture, that doesn't mean I cannot still thwart that intention, that grace. Either way, good fruit is still the best evidence.

Brightfame52 shared Ezekiel 36:26-27 with you, but you apparently would rather tell God what to do than accept his mercy. You can't thwart God's plans. You want man to determine by his own agency to be able to ignore God. God created us and is Supreme. We bow before Him willingly when we have His Spirit Who lives in every believer. His Spirit isn't a temporary Guide. He is always and forever with us. There is no fruit without the indwelling Spirit. The atonement isn't an opportunity: eternal life is a gift, not something someone can buy!

 

[Rescued One]

We need to read all of the Bible. As with other posters here you prefer only the carrots, not the sticks, not the goads, the warnings, the admonitions. The entire Bible, and the gospel, for that matter, make little sense unless, by them, God is appealing to and drawing man's will into greater and greater rectitude, into greater creator agreement with His wisdom and will and away from our own, into our allowing Him to be the cause as we finally come to see our desperate need for Him, all with the essential help of His grace which comes first. Again, sheer puppetry is not His biz. He could have just done that at the beginning and precluded all the ugly mess that resulted from the freedom that He gave and continues to give man, the freedom that He wants us to use correctly, for our own highest good.

You disrespect our holy God! It's horrible! He doesn't kowtow to us! We adore and praise Him for His mercy on lowly humans.

He saved us, not by the righteous deeds we had done, but according to His mercy, through the washing of new birth and renewal by the Holy Spirit.
Titus 3:5

I'm truly sorry you're not aware of His mercy. Our highest good is giving Him the praise and thanks.

 

[Rescued One]

@fhansen

4But because of His great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in our trespasses. It is by grace you have been saved! 6And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with Him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, 7in order that in the coming ages He might display the surpassing riches of His grace, demonstrated by His kindness to us in Christ Jesus.

 

[fhansen]

I doubt that you believe in my God

Me too, at least not exactly the same.

You apparently think you have to earn God's love.

I never said that, just the opposite, in fact. My God loves unconditionally, not just some people. We don't have to earn that love but we do need to return it. Those who are heavily engaged in egregious sin are opposed to and destroying love. As I've said in many places, if you're someone who loves well, then you'll be producing good fruit and demonstrating evidence that you're one of His.

Christ purchased my salvation and will complete the work He began. I am saved forever, not temporarily. Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, He is with me! It doesn't get any better! Not only am I connected to the Vine, but the Holy Spirit resides in me! Does God's spirit live in you? If not, you are none of His. I CHOOSE THE TRIUNE GOD! Who do you choose?

So, keep doing that, keep walking by the Spirit and you'll persevere to the end. Meanwhile you can't predict your own perseverance, which is why we are exhorted to strive, to make effort, to persevere, to be vigilant... Is there something wrong with encouragements and exhortations and warnings? If so, then God shouldn't even demand faith. But instead he wants us to be holy and it says so over and over in the Bible. If you're doing that then I have no argument with you anyway.

 

[fhansen]

You disrespect our holy God! It's horrible! He doesn't kowtow to us! We adore and praise Him for His mercy on lowly humans.

Silly nonsense. God in His wisdom deems it right and good that you should not be an automaton and you deem that to be horrible! He can do with us whatever He wants!!! And if He wants you to play some role in your salvation that is only a good thing!!! His mercy? Your god creates some people to suffer eternally- without regard to their choice in the matter!!! Sheez!

 

[fhansen]

You can't thwart God's plans.

Of course you can-or else hell would be empty. 2 Pet 3:9

 

[fhansen]

He saved us, not by the righteous deeds we had done, but according to His mercy, through the washing of new birth and renewal by the Holy Spirit.
Titus 3:5

Salvation is a process. Once justified, receiving the gift of justice/righoteousness by virtue of being grafted into the Vine, we must continue to walk in that rightouness, which is to remain in Him. To the extent that we fail to walk in it, we haven't remained in Him. Meanwhile we're tested, challenged, graced and, hopefully, refined as we 'work out our savation' and 'make our calling and election sure'. So salvation is spoken of in Scripture as a past, present, and future event:

past:
"...it is by grace you have been saved." Eph 2:5

present:
"...continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling," Phil 2:12

"For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God." 1 Cor 1:18

"Though you have not seen him, you love him; and even though you do not see him now, you believe in him and are filled with an inexpressible and glorious joy, for you are receiving the end result of your faith, the salvation of your souls." 1 Pet 1:8-9

future:
"And the Lord added to their number daily those who were being saved." Act 2:47

"Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him. For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life." Romans 5:9-10

 

[fhansen]

I study, study, study the Bible; I imagine I study as much or more than you.

Me too, as well as the historical sources of church teachings: ECFs, councils, etc: the cloud of witnesses who came before us. And I'll tell you something about bible study, You can take two equally highly educated and erudite-and sincere- bible scholars, fluent in the original languages, experts in hermeneutics, etc, and they can take polar opposite positions on the very matter we're discusssing here, as well as others, and plausibly so in many, many cases.

 

[David Lamb]

No because God also loved the people who are not saved. The Bible even says that Jesus is not only the savior of the elect but also the savior of the non-elect.

"For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe." - 1. Timothy 4 10

So in that verse it's crystal clear that "all men" is actually all men, not just the elect. He's the savior of all men specially of those that believe meaning that he is also the savior of those who don't believe.

But what does it mean to say that God loves every human being without exception? In the bible, we do read about Him causing rain and sunshine to benefit all. We all have air to breathe. But if you extend that to say that Jesus is the Saviour of unbelievers, what does He save unbelievers from? You refer to 1 Timothy 4:10, but that cannot mean that Jesus saves unbelievers, otherwise it would go against verses such as this one:

“And it shall come to pass that whoever calls on the name of the LORD Shall be saved.’” (Ac 2:21 NKJV)

I understand 1 Timothy 4:10 in the way John Gill explains it in his commentary: "Who is the Saviour of all men; in a providential way, giving them being and breath, upholding them in their beings, preserving their lives, and indulging them with the blessings and mercies of life; for that he is the Saviour of all men, with a spiritual and everlasting salvation, is not true in fact."

In your way of understanding it, how weak must God's love be, and how "inefficient" the salvation Jesus brings, if they leave people in hell. Yet we are told in Isaiah's prophecy about the Saviour:

“He shall see the labor of His soul, and be satisfied. By His knowledge My righteous Servant shall justify many, For He shall bear their iniquities.” (Isa 53:11 NKJV)

How could He be satisfied if just one sinner for whom He died ended up in hell?

 

[Brightfame52]

Understand this. The Lord Jesus Christ did not come to save Adam’s race. He did not die to redeem Adam’s race. He did not fulfil the law for Adam’s race. If he had, Adam’s race would be saved. Christ took hold of Abraham’s seed, came to save, died for, and fulfilled all the law for Abraham’s seed, God’s chosen race, his elect nation, his own peculiar people.

Heb 2:16

16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.

There were angels that sinned against God too, but He was not commissioned to save them from their eternal doom, and in the same way, He wasn't sent to save all of the seed of adam, but only a particular segment of his progeny, the seed of Abraham.

When it reads He took on the seed of Abraham, the words took on in the greek is epilambanomai:

to take in addition, to lay hold of, take possession of, overtake, attain, attain to

to lay hold of or to seize upon anything with the hands, to take hold of, lay hold of

metaph. to rescue one from peril, to help, succour

It was only that seed He was to rescue from the pit of hell, it was only that seed He was help and succour.

Another reading:

For, as we all know, He [Christ] did not take hold of angels [the fallen angels, to give them a helping and delivering hand], but He did take hold of [the fallen] descendants of Abraham [to reach out to them a helping and delivering hand].AMPC

For Christ came to save His Own, for He himself was of the seed of Abraham Gal 3:16

16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

Gal 3:29

29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise. 2

 

[Brightfame52]

Already addressed this, and, again all the bible. I also like Jer 31:33:
“I will put my law in their minds
and write it on their hearts."

But going by the whole counsel of scripture, that doesn't mean I cannot still thwart that intention, that grace. Either way, good fruit is still the best evidence.

I dont care you addressed it, its still a truth that shows you dont have any understanding. Ezk 36:26-27

26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

 

[Rescued One]

Me too, as well as the historical sources of church teachings: ECFs, councils, etc: the cloud of witnesses who came before us. And I'll tell you something about bible study, You can take two equally highly educated and erudite-and sincere- bible scholars, fluent in the original languages, experts in hermeneutics, etc, and they can take polar opposite positions on the very matter we're discusssing here, as well as others, and plausibly so in many, many cases.

All Christians believe God only saves some. The Bible is our instruction book.

For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
Hebrews 4:12

All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness,
so that the servant of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.
2 Timothy 3:16-17

You are praising non-canonized sources of information., but Heb. 4:12 and 2 Tim. 3:16-17 don't instruct us to question the Word of God.

1 John 5:19
We know that we are children of God, and that the whole world is under the control of the evil one.

If the whole world is under the control of Satan why do I need their advice if that advice contradicts the Bible? 2 Timothy 3:16-17 tells us the Bible is reliable.

 

[Rescued One]

Of course you can-or else hell would be empty. 2 Pet 3:9

No, no one thwarts His plana. Who has power over Him?

 

[fhansen]

No, no one thwarts His plana. Who has power over Him?

We have freedom-at His discretion-for a time, for a season, until all things are consummated and the wheat and the tares are separated and evil is no longer allowed to coexist with good. Until then sin/moral evil would not even be possible unless God allowed it for His purposes because God and evil are mutually exclusive. IOW, God does not desire that man or any other part of His creation disobey Him-and yet it does. He wants none to perish-and yet some will.

 

[fhansen]

You are praising non-canonized sources of information., but Heb. 4:12 and 2 Tim. 3:16-17 don't instruct us to question the Word of God.

No! You are a non-canonized source of information with your private interpretations and I'm praising their opinion over yours, especially as I've come to see that the ancient teachings most often align with myself and other like-minded believers going back to the beginning.

 

[fhansen]

If the whole world is under the control of Satan why do I need their advice if that advice contradicts the Bible? 2 Timothy 3:16-17 tells us the Bible is reliable.

If the whole world is under his control, why should I trust your opinion on the bible, especially when you reject or revise any part that might interfere with your interpretation?

 

[fhansen]

I dont care you addressed it, its still a truth that shows you dont have any understanding. Ezk 36:26-27

26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

If you understand that as what God desires for you and will do in you and that to the extent that you then comply with His will and continue to do so, proving yourself to be good soil that produces good fruit, investing rather than burying your talents, your gifts, then fine. If you take that isolated passage, discounting many others, to mean that you cannot do otherwise than do His will, that you cannot fail, then you do not grasp the gospel fully. If you understand salvation as not only making it into heaven but as part and parcel of you attaining to and fulfilling the very purpose that man was created for, fully flowering into the likeness of God as you participate in His work, being perfected in His love- then you’ll understand better. Our salvation is defined by our nearness to that purpose, that telos, not by an act of faith that only starts the ball rolling towards that goal. That faith is your salvation because nearness to Him is your salvation.

“I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing. If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, you will ask what you desire, and it shall be done for you. By this My Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit; so you will be My disciples.” John 15:5-8

 

[fhansen]

Understand this. The Lord Jesus Christ did not come to save Adam’s race. He did not die to redeem Adam’s race. He did not fulfil the law for Adam’s race. If he had, Adam’s race would be saved. Christ took hold of Abraham’s seed, came to save, died for, and fulfilled all the law for Abraham’s seed, God’s chosen race, his elect nation, his own peculiar people.

He died for anyone who would turn to Him. That's why the gentiles, who wer not necessarily physical descendants of Abraham, of course, were now eligible: the whole world. Those who fell from God's grace were all of Adam's seed, and:

"Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people, so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people. For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous." Rom 5:18-19