• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

  • CF has always been a site that welcomes people from different backgrounds and beliefs to participate in discussion and even debate. That is the nature of its ministry. In view of recent events emotions are running very high. We need to remind people of some basic principles in debating on this site. We need to be civil when we express differences in opinion. No personal attacks. Avoid you, your statements. Don't characterize an entire political party with comparisons to Fascism or Communism or other extreme movements that committed atrocities. CF is not the place for broad brush or blanket statements about groups and political parties. Put the broad brushes and blankets away when you come to CF, better yet, put them in the incinerator. Debate had no place for them. We need to remember that people that commit acts of violence represent themselves or a small extreme faction.

Life

Status
Not open for further replies.

Van

Contributor
Oct 28, 2004
8,956
111
California
✟9,814.00
Faith
Christian
So at the end of the day, the brand of TE that post here, say they do not know how the Universe began, but it was not supernatural as defined in the dictionary. They do not know how life began, but it was not supernatural as defined in the dictionary. And they do not know when or if God supernaturally instilled the capacity to handle abstract thought. Not a very theistic view after all. They will say God did it at a level below that which can be detected, which is no different from saying there is no evidence of God in nature. As Ben Franklin might say, "faint praise."
 
Upvote 0

Assyrian

Basically pulling an Obama (Thanks Calminian!)
Mar 31, 2006
14,868
991
Wales
✟42,286.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
ROFLOL, yet another post redefining supernatural to mean natural. And yet I supposedly lack a fundamental knowledge of what science is. As Bobby Jones might have said, Scientists play it where it lays. They say "oops" alot. :)
Hi Van it would really help if you quoted people and said who you are referring to. It is really hard to tell whose posts you are talking about from the claims you make.
 
Upvote 0

gluadys

Legend
Mar 2, 2004
12,958
682
Toronto
✟39,020.00
Faith
Protestant
Politics
CA-NDP
So at the end of the day, the brand of TE that post here, say they do not know how the Universe began, but it was not supernatural as defined in the dictionary.

No. We are saying that WE DON'T KNOW whether the process was natural or supernatural. We do know that it was created by God.


They do not know how life began, but it was not supernatural as defined in the dictionary.

No, we are saying WE DON'T KNOW whether the process was natural or supernatural. We do know God created life.


And they do not know when or if God supernaturally instilled the capacity to handle abstract thought.

Good! This time you got it right. We don't know if God used natural or supernatural means. But we do know God created humanity and its distinctive capacities.

They will say God did it at a level below that which can be detected, which is no different from saying there is no evidence of God in nature.

All of nature is evidence for God. Nature in its most natural state glorifies God. What more do we need?
 
Upvote 0

Mallon

Senior Veteran
Mar 6, 2006
6,109
297
✟30,402.00
Faith
Lutheran
Marital Status
Private
So at the end of the day, the brand of TE that post here, say they do not know how the Universe began, but it was not supernatural as defined in the dictionary.
Wrong. We are saying that we cannot be certain whether the universe was created via natural or supernatural means.

They do not know how life began, but it was not supernatural as defined in the dictionary.
Wrong. We are saying that we cannot be certain whether life was created naturally or supernaturally.

Not a very theistic view after all.
You continue to misrepresent us. Evolutionary creationists are certain of one thing: regardless of whether the Lord created life via natural or supernatural means, HE CREATED. What's so untheistic about that? Do you limit God's action only to what is supernatural? Can God not exercise His providence through nature as well?

They will say God did it at a level below that which can be detected, which is no different from saying there is no evidence of God in nature.
There is certainly evidence for God in nature (Rom 1:20), but it isn't proof. If we could prove God simply by pointing to gaps in His creation, we wouldn't need faith. And faith is one of the most important Christian attributes of all!
 
Upvote 0

Van

Contributor
Oct 28, 2004
8,956
111
California
✟9,814.00
Faith
Christian
I hear Irish music, someone is dancing a jig. Practical calculations are uncertain, but I am uncertain about that. :)

TE says whatever turns out to be correct is what I believe, for now I take no position because no one can be certain. They know this is age of darkness thinking, so they say it reflects a knowledge of the fundamentals of science, when it is the opposite of the age of enlightenment thinking, where people risked their lives for what they believed was true, even though they were not "certain."

What is so "untheistic" about denying evidence for God in nature? Is there really a need to answer that one?

The heavens declare His glory. For what can be known about God has been made plain... because God has shown it to them. For His invisible attributes, namely his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things He has made.

Years ago my child painted with his fingers a painting. Now I could hold that up and say God painted that painting. But his teacher might object. So I say see those paints, why God created the stuff of which they are made. But the teacher might object further, say the designs reflected on the paper are from my son. No I would say, God created my son, and so He painted the painting. She would then walk away, knowing she had been dealing with a loon.
 
Upvote 0

Mallon

Senior Veteran
Mar 6, 2006
6,109
297
✟30,402.00
Faith
Lutheran
Marital Status
Private
There is certainly evidence for God in nature (Rom 1:20)

What is so "untheistic" about denying evidence for God in nature? Is there really a need to answer that one?

You know, Van, the more you try and say about us, the more you end up saying about yourself.
 
Upvote 0

Van

Contributor
Oct 28, 2004
8,956
111
California
✟9,814.00
Faith
Christian
How would you know, since you know nothing or at least are uncertain about everything. I have said nothing about you, except that you seem to like to disparage others. Trite.

I say God created everything either naturally or supernaturally and Mallon then asks, "Do you limit God's action only to the supernatural." The more Mallon says about me, the more we learn about the fundamental behavior of Mallon.

What we need to understand is the thought process where I say God operates in some cases naturally, and Mallon then questions whether I believe God's actions are limited to the supernatural. The thought process seems to be why not present a mischaracterization of Van, since Mallon cannot defend his uncertainly about God with the truth.

Folks, the version of TE held by the other posters on this forum seems to be atheistic evolution in drag. The evidence is clear: (1) they use personal incredulity to suggest positions are not valid, (2) they attack those who hold alternate views, and (3) they intentionally mischaracterize the views of others. My working hypothesis seems to be predictive, with the latest "do you limit God to the supernatural" mischaracterization.

Since they object to the idea that God supernaturally created life, they believe life evolved from non-life according to naturalistic processes known at this time. But to hide this, they say they just do not know. Otherwise they would have to accept one of the alternatives. They think this view is sound scientifically. ROFLOL
 
Upvote 0

Melethiel

Miserere mei, Domine
Site Supporter
Jun 8, 2005
27,287
940
35
Ohio
✟99,593.00
Faith
Lutheran
Marital Status
Married
How would you know, since you know nothing or at least are uncertain about everything. I have said nothing about you, except that you seem to like to disparage others. Trite.
I think this speaks for itself...

And then the rest of the post goes on to disparage TEs...
 
Upvote 0

Mallon

Senior Veteran
Mar 6, 2006
6,109
297
✟30,402.00
Faith
Lutheran
Marital Status
Private
Van, I am sorry that my indecisiveness regarding how God acted when He created life and the universe makes you so hot under the collar. Please rest assured that simply because I have not formulated a strong opinion on these two issues does not mean that I am "uncertain about everything", as you put it.
One thing I am certain of is that my refusal to paint myself into a corner regarding God's actions at the beginning of time does not somehow equate with atheism, as you accuse me of in your last post. You have been told since page 1 of this thread that evolutionary creationists are perfectly happy to acknowledge God's creative actions in history, whether they be miraculous or providential.
I am also quite certain that, after nearly 10 pages of mischaracterization on your part, you are here only to project and to provoke -- the classic signs of an internet troll. As such, I'll leave the last remarks to you, because I don't want to waste any more time talking to someone who won't listen.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

theFijian

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Oct 30, 2003
8,898
476
West of Scotland
Visit site
✟86,155.00
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Married
I think this speaks for itself...

And then the rest of the post goes on to disparage TEs...

it seems to be par for the course for Van. you shold head over to Soteriology and see what he says about Calvinists!
 
Upvote 0

Van

Contributor
Oct 28, 2004
8,956
111
California
✟9,814.00
Faith
Christian
Folks note that I am being attacked personally rather than discussing whether God created life supernaturally or through natural processes. God did not create life through natural processes is the most probable answer to the question. That understanding does not paint anyone "into a corner."

Next I am charged with saying bad things about the Calvinists. Yet another disparagement, another falsehood, another personal attack. Calvinism is false doctrine and it is defended by (1) personal attack, (2) misrepresentation and (3) vague statements that could mean anything.

I was called a "troll." But did I call anyone a troll? Nope. So I am charged with what others are doing to me. Go figure.

Next Mallon says we cannot be certain and I acknowledge his statement of post #85 and then am charged with saying something "bad" about Mallon. Like a toddler, I think I should hold up two (2) fingers.

Folks, TE hold to either "A" or "B". I hold to "B". The brand being advocated here is "I do not know for "certain" whether it is "A" or "B" because I do not want to "paint myself into a corner." That is a "I believe in whatever turns out to be right" non-position position. That is not theistic evolution.
 
Upvote 0

theFijian

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Oct 30, 2003
8,898
476
West of Scotland
Visit site
✟86,155.00
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Married
Folks note that I am being attacked personally rather than discussing whether God created life supernaturally or through natural processes. God did not create life through natural processes is the most probable answer to the question. That understanding does not paint anyone "into a corner."

Next I am charged with saying bad things about the Calvinists. Yet another disparagement, another falsehood, another personal attack. Calvinism is false doctrine and it is defended by (1) personal attack, (2) misrepresentation and (3) vague statements that could mean anything.

I was called a "troll." But did I call anyone a troll? Nope. So I am charged with what others are doing to me. Go figure.

Next Mallon says we cannot be certain and I acknowledge his statement of post #85 and then am charged with saying something "bad" about Mallon. Like a toddler, I think I should hold up two (2) fingers.
Methinks the lady doth protest too much! (note how he takes any opportunity to disparage both Calvinism and Calvinists!)
 
Upvote 0

gluadys

Legend
Mar 2, 2004
12,958
682
Toronto
✟39,020.00
Faith
Protestant
Politics
CA-NDP
TE says whatever turns out to be correct is what I believe, for now I take no position because no one can be certain. They know this is age of darkness thinking,

I don't know anything of the kind. What makes this "age of darkness thinking"? To me it is a kind of hubris to claim knowledge I do not have. So, if I do not know something about how God created, it is true and appropriate to say so.

Note that this in no way means I have any doubt THAT God created. I am only fuzzy on the mechanics of how.

Why do you have such a problem with a genuine admission of ignorance?


What is so "untheistic" about denying evidence for God in nature? Is there really a need to answer that one?


I would certainly like to know your answer. I haven't seen any TEs denying evidence for God in nature.

So, yes, I do find it disturbing that one who claims to believe in creation does not see creation as evidence of a Creator.
 
Upvote 0

gluadys

Legend
Mar 2, 2004
12,958
682
Toronto
✟39,020.00
Faith
Protestant
Politics
CA-NDP
Folks, the version of TE held by the other posters on this forum seems to be atheistic evolution in drag. ....
Since they object to the idea that God supernaturally created life,

Just where has anyone in this forum objected to the idea that God supernaturally created life?

You asked whether God created life supernaturally or using natural processes and we said that we don't know.

That is not an objection to God creating life supernaturally.

I do not believe life was necessarily formed using natural processes. I am open to the possibility that it was; and I am open to the possibility that it was not. I have no objection to supernatural modes. But I will not claim to know what I don't know.



But to hide this, they say they just do not know. Otherwise they would have to accept one of the alternatives.

Why? Why would one have to accept one alternative or the other? Why do you insist on a forced choice?




They think this view is sound scientifically.

How is it not? Science generally does not draw conclusions without positive evidence. I remember when textbooks presented both steady-state and big bang theory because both were hypotheses without positive evidence to support them. No one knew for certain then which was the better explanation of an expanding universe.

Then the cosmic background radiation was found and found to be consistent with the predictions of big bang theory.

It is indeed sound science not to force a premature conclusion but to wait on evidence that tips the balance to emerge.
 
Upvote 0

Van

Contributor
Oct 28, 2004
8,956
111
California
✟9,814.00
Faith
Christian
Folks, TE hold to either "A" or "B". I hold to "B". The brand being advocated here is "I do not know for "certain" whether it is "A" or "B" because I do not want to "paint myself into a corner." That is a "I believe in whatever turns out to be right" non-position position. That is not theistic evolution.

Sounds like the hammer striking the nail on the head. :)
 
Upvote 0

Van

Contributor
Oct 28, 2004
8,956
111
California
✟9,814.00
Faith
Christian
I do not wonder if thefijian would accuse Jesus, because the question itself would be a personal attack on thefijian. Jesus said our yes should be yes and our no should be no, that we should treat others like we want to be treated, with integrity.

Did God create life supernaturally? I think so. I hold to theistic evolution to a degree, but I cling to God's word more than most.
 
Upvote 0

theFijian

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Oct 30, 2003
8,898
476
West of Scotland
Visit site
✟86,155.00
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Married
Sounds like the hammer striking the nail on the head. :)

Ah so that sound I'm hearing would be you patting yourself on the back!

I do not wonder if thefijian would accuse Jesus, because the question itself would be a personal attack on thefijian. Jesus said our yes should be yes and our no should be no, that we should treat others like we want to be treated, with integrity.
That's awfully magnanimous of you, now you just need to actually start treating people with integrity.
 
Upvote 0
Status
Not open for further replies.