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Shemjaza

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English is the language by which we are communicating.

The word "function" carries a normal meaning that could be described in a number of ways using different words to convey the same meaning.



I can see that your rebuttal begins with an attempt to undermine the very meaning of the language being used in order to cause a perceived confusion and so deniability.

This is another strategy commonly employed by those who do not wish to engage the argument.
Nonsense. English is a great language for communicating, but common conversational conventions are not precise enough for an objective and consistent measurements of the universe.
For example: my coffee cup is "a long way away" because I don't want to get up from my desk and get it from the table; also the Melbourne CBD is "a long way away" because it would take me almost an hour to ride my motorbike there; and finally the Great Attractor is "a long way away" because it's at the centre of the galactic super cluster over 150 million light years away... all reasonable uses of English, but by no means succinct, it requires context and judgement.

Please explain the objective method and importantly, the metric for measuring functional coherence. I do not think it's possible, but I'm curious if I can be proven wrong. ID has a very bad track record in both science and honesty, so I'm very skeptical.
 
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Anguspure

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It doesn't matter.
Robots aren't biological entities and thus aren't subject to biological processes.

So pointing out that robots didn't come about through biological evolution, is simply stating the obvious.
Both are systems.

One is relatively basic in terms of functional coherence and design, and yet nobody who is not delusional would ever believe that it came about through any means apart from an intelligent designer.

The other is highly sophisticated and displays extremely high functional coherence. Some believe it came about by a series of purposeless accidents inspite of the clear evidence of design exhibited.
 
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Anguspure

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Nonsense. English is a great language for communicating, but common conversational conventions are not precise enough for an objective and consistent measurements of the universe.
For example: my coffee cup is "a long way away" because I don't want to get up from my desk and get it from the table; also the Melbourne CBD is "a long way away" because it would take me almost an hour to ride my motorbike there; and finally the Great Attractor is "a long way away" because it's at the centre of the galactic super cluster over 150 million light years away... all reasonable uses of English, but by no means succinct, it requires context and judgement.
The words used carry the normal English dictionary meaning.

This is the beauty of Axes work: that the words in it are arranged in a manner as to convey the normal dictionary meaning of them, in English, to an English speaker. By doing so he makes his work accesible to the average reader who wishes to discover what he thinks on the topic that he is writing.
Please explain the objective method and importantly, the metric for measuring functional coherence. I do not think it's possible, but I'm curious if I can be proven wrong. ID has a very bad track record in both science and honesty, so I'm very skeptical.
Being skeptical of a work you have no intention of ever engaging with (https://www.amazon.com/Undeniable-B...TF8&qid=1528401995&sr=8-1&keywords=undeniable) is disingenuous. Better than the Ad Hominem fallacy I suppose but only just.

Chapters 9 and 10 of Axes book cover the method in depth.

upload_2018-6-8_8-15-48.jpeg

The hierarchical structure of an invention, showing the functional coherence that characterizes the relationships between parts. In this scheme the parts at intermediate levels (between the elementary constituents and the functional whole) are referred to as components. The number of intermediate levels and components depends both on the invention and, to a degree, on the way we choose to delineate its principal parts. The invariant fact is that the many parts must perform their small functions in a particular hierarchical way in order for the whole invention to perform its large function.

Axe, Douglas. Undeniable: How Biology Confirms Our Intuition That Life Is Designed (Kindle Locations 1962-1966). HarperCollins. Kindle Edition.
 
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As I have explained with thanks to Douglas Axe, functional coherence is evident at a high level in all biology and it is fantastically improbable that this arose by any means identified as "evolution".
Which is not what I wrote about:
8 June 2018 Anguspure: The obvious lies that you did not recognize in the article you linked to.
Anyone who knows about biology or does some research will understand that the article lied. The article does not mention "functional coherence". The article is intelligent design fantasies and lies.

Douglas Axe making up a phrase in a book does not mean that "functional coherence" has any use in biology. His personal opinion in that book does not mean anything in science which is based on evidence. A dumb book title does not help ("Undeniable: How Biology Confirms Our Intuition That Life Is Designed")!

8 June 2018 Anguspure: Please cite the use of Axe's "functional coherence" in published scientific papers.

There are scientific uses of "Functional Coherence" but from Undeniable Axe! (evaluating an Axe interview)
he does plainly admit it is a version of irreducible complexity with some new paint slapped on it.
Irreducible complexity is pseudoscience so we need evidence that Axe's "functional coherence" is not the same.
The Axe interview is full of argument from ignorance and false dichotomy.

A Review of Undeniable, by Douglas Axe.
While I no longer blog with anything like my former enthusiasm, I do return here periodically to remind you that ID is dead. I say that in part because the ID folks do not seem to have had a new idea since Dembski’s No Free Lunch. They pop their collective heads up to publish a book every once in a while, but all the recent ones have just been rehashes of old, discredited arguments.

Axe’s book is an egregious example of this. There is nothing remotely new in it. But more than that, it is a real step backward in tone and style for ID. It is the sort of short, large print, truculent book that has more in common with Henry Morris and Duane Gish than with William Dembski or Michael Behe.

For one thing, the book is openly evangelistic. The creator is the Christian God. Period. No subterfuge about the possibility of intelligent aliens or anything like that.

From 2013: Doug Axe Doesn't Understand Information Theory
 
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pitabread

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This is the beauty of Axes work: that the words in it are arranged in a manner as to convey the normal dictionary meaning of them, in English, to an English speaker. By doing so he makes his work accesible to the average reader who wishes to discover what he thinks on the topic that he is writing.

I don't care about accessibility for the layman. I'm interested in the technical details.

The hierachical arrangement of a system would be a system in which parts are arranged in ranks of function so as to form the system.

Example of an hierarchical arrangement: Rank 1 (Compounds) - Rank 2 (Amino Acids) - Rank 3 (Amino Acid String) - Rank 4 (Functional protein).

So essentially it's categorical.

According to rank of function. i.e. Compounds must first be arranged correctly in order to for amino acids to form and function in a manner for Rank 3 to be possible. Rank 1 must be correctly arranged in order to allow Rank 2 to function correctly.

We already have a term for this: Emergence - Wikipedia. Why would Axe feel the need to invent a brand new term for something that already exists?

A function that a system carries out as a result of the coherent manner in which the hierachical arrangement permits. i.e. The pixels (Rank 1) arranged into letters (Rank 2) - words (Rank 3) - sentences (Rank 4) - paragraphs (Rank 5) in a coherent manner form the hig-level function of conveying meaning to the observer. The low level function of pixels is to form letters, but this in itself does not form the high level function, which is observed at the 5th rank.

As per above, who is deciding all of this? For example you claim the function of pixels is to "form letters", but that's not the function of a pixel at all. A pixel in an display is the smallest addressable sort of light in that display. And even it isn't the smallest element, as pixels are in turn made up of sub-pixels (typically 3 colors) which depending on how they are lit can produce different colors. That's the real function of a pixel: a dot that can make a color.

Pixels also don't exist in a vacuum. It's not like there is a pixel manufacturer that ships out boxes of raw pixels to be put into displays. Rather, they a description for the smallest addressable part of a display which in includes numerous different hardware components.

Yes

Yes

Yes

Since you're answering "yes" to my questions about there being a technical methodology which can be independently applied by scientists to come up with the same result... then got any examples?

That functionally coherent sytems do not appear by a series of random mutations selected for fitness through the natural environment is perhaps a valid claim.

"Is perhaps"? You mean it hasn't been tested?

The test would be to make some parts available, in an environment and watch to see what happens.

That doesn't seem like a valid test. Rather, if you're trying to argue for the non-evolvability of something then the test is if a plausible evolutionary path exists.

The problem with science, admittedly is that the intelligence cannot be observed through the lense of MN even if it did deign to repeat it's creative action.

This isn't true. It's not about intelligence at all; it's about supernaturalism. It's the latter science can't address. Don't conflate the two.

In fact, detecting intelligent design is scientific in the context of hunting for evidence of human ancestry. However, the methods employed rely on pattern recognition and understanding of manufacturing processes of artificially created objects.

Thousands upon thousands of new and functionally coherent systems should evolve from our experimental parts on a daily basis.

Why?

When just so stories are regarded as synonimous with evidence then I guess we could "prove" anything, including that irreducibly complex systems can arise by NS.

I honestly feel that creationists complaining about "just so stories" have no idea how hypotheses of how past events occurred are formulated and/or tested.

Behe wrote a whole book showing the demonstrable competence of ND to produce evolution in 3 organisms over many millions of generations in the real world.

Behe argued that certain biological systems were irreducibly complex. Then people went out and demonstrated they were reducible. His hypothesis was falsified.
 
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pitabread

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That an accident happened that allowed the circuit to have been repurposed is about where the comparison with ND ends.

Clearly the mutation did not supply any selective advantage to the circuit (the researchers where looking for something for which a radio was irrelevant), and so clearly the circuit was not going to replicate in this manner.

I think you've entirely missed the point. The goal of the experiment was to produce a circuit with an oscillating output. In that sense, the circuit succeeded in that goal.

What it didn't do, however, was generate its own internal signal. Rather, it hijacked an existing signal by functioning as a radio receiver. It demonstrates that the probability space of possible successful outcomes may be larger than originally expected.
 
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GrowingSmaller

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As for the rest, it seems to be the usual "it's complex, therefore it's designed!" argument that pervades ID thinking.
AFAIK there are a few measures of entropy. One is thermodynamic depth, and another is logical depth.

The first aims at how complex a legitimate natural process was involved in making eg human life, as compared to eg a heap of sand. The path to life is much more complex.


The second is iirc about the set of instructions that would be needed to put such a thing together. Any child can make a sandcastle, but no one can make a child (from scratch that is)...

I think IDers are focusing on logical depth.

And until science is 100% complete, there will always be room for "that explanation is inadequate for the observed reality" moans and groans for any putative story about what happened over the billions of years. Eg abiogenesis.
 
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Anguspure

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I think you've entirely missed the point. The goal of the experiment was to produce a circuit with an oscillating output. In that sense, the circuit succeeded in that goal.

What it didn't do, however, was generate its own internal signal. Rather, it hijacked an existing signal by functioning as a radio receiver. It demonstrates that the probability space of possible successful outcomes may be larger than originally expected.
In terms of FC not paricularly exciting though. On about the level of a rock falling off the bench and forming a sharp edge, especially in comparison to what is evident in biological forms.
Words do pop up in alphabet soup from time to time, after all, and vastly fantastic extrapolation is an affectation of Darwinists.
 
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Anguspure

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Which is not what I wrote about:
8 June 2018 Anguspure: The obvious lies that you did not recognize in the article you linked to.
Anyone who knows about biology or does some research will understand that the article lied. The article does not mention "functional coherence". The article is intelligent design fantasies and lies.

Douglas Axe making up a phrase in a book does not mean that "functional coherence" has any use in biology. His personal opinion in that book does not mean anything in science which is based on evidence. A dumb book title does not help ("Undeniable: How Biology Confirms Our Intuition That Life Is Designed")!

8 June 2018 Anguspure: Please cite the use of Axe's "functional coherence" in published scientific papers.

There are scientific uses of "Functional Coherence" but from Undeniable Axe! (evaluating an Axe interview)

Irreducible complexity is pseudoscience so we need evidence that Axe's "functional coherence" is not the same.
The Axe interview is full of argument from ignorance and false dichotomy.

A Review of Undeniable, by Douglas Axe.


From 2013: Doug Axe Doesn't Understand Information Theory
Read the book and then engage the argument.
 
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Brightmoon

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Specified complexity and functional coherence? Sounds like a George Clinton album ! Any minute now I expect you to come blasting out Atomic Dog! “Bow wow wow yippee yo yippee yay! Why must I be like that ? Why must I chase the cat ? Nuttin’ but the dog in me.”
 
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Shemjaza

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Read the book and then engage the argument.
Given the problematic history of ID, can you at least express how it is measured and what the metric is?
 
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pitabread

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In terms of FC not paricularly exciting though. On about the level of a rock falling off the bench and forming a sharp edge, especially in comparison to what is evident in biological forms.

I get the feeling you're hand-waving away the import of what it demonstrates.
 
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Shemjaza

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i dont think so. we all know that we need at least several parts for a minimal function like vision or motion systems.
SORT OF TRUE

For a sophisticated and complicated motion or vision system like on many modern organism this might be true, but even a simple light sensitive spot could be advantageous to a previously totally blind organism.

It's like the old saying: "In the land of of the blind, the one eyed man is king."
thus such systems cant evolve stepwise.
FALSE

Hypothetical step wise concepts have been presented for every "irreducibly complex" system put forward by the ID crowd. All it takes is some components changing purpose over the history of the lineage.

I'm certain this has been explained to you before, then you probably dodged it with lies and nonsense about magical animal cars and evolved organic robots.
 
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xianghua

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but even a simple light sensitive spot could be advantageous to a previously totally blind organism.

true. the problem is that even such a minimal system need at least several parts, and thus cant evolve stepwise.

Hypothetical step wise concepts have been presented for every "irreducibly complex" system put forward by the ID crowd. All it takes is some components changing purpose over the history of the lineage.

realy? so can you show me a detailed explanation to how even a single complex system can evolve stepwise? if not then we are onto something here.
 
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Shemjaza

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true. the problem is that even such a minimal system need at least several parts, and thus cant evolve stepwise.
Repeating this lie doesn't make it any more real than penguin robots.

Very simple positive structures can form from neutral mutations that come from the random variation of life. At the simplest level a lot of these structures are just chemical reactions to light, stimuli or other chemicals.

realy? so can you show me a detailed explanation to how even a single complex system can evolve stepwise? if not then we are onto something here.
Here's a reasonably detailed run down of the Evolution of the flagella from Wikipedia.
 
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pitabread

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so can you show me a detailed explanation to how even a single complex system can evolve stepwise?

I pointed this out to you many times now. Did you ever even look at it? Evolution of the bacterial flagellum

Granted it's a highly technical explanation and since English isn't your first language, you'll probably struggle with it. But you are asking for a detailed explanation and this is what you are getting.
 
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i dont think so. we all know that we need at least several parts for a minimal function like vision or motion systems. thus such systems cant evolve stepwise.
12 June 2018 xianghua: Irreducible complexity is pseudoscience because it is the basis of ID and ID fits the definition of pseudoscience.
Pseudoscience consists of statements, beliefs, or practices that are claimed to be both scientific and factual, but are incompatible with the scientific method.[1][Note 1] Pseudoscience is often characterized by contradictory, exaggerated or unfalsifiable claims; reliance on confirmation bias rather than rigorous attempts at refutation; lack of openness to evaluation by other experts; and absence of systematic practices when developing theories, and continued adherence long after they have been experimentally discredited. The term pseudoscience is considered pejorative[4] because it suggests something is being presented as science inaccurately or even deceptively. Those described as practicing or advocating pseudoscience often dispute the characterization.[2]
I emphasized the part makes irreducible complexity invalid pseudoscience.

You need to stop listening to ID lies. It is a lie that the few examples given by Beth and others are definitely irreducibly complex: Stated examples
12 June 2018 xianghua: It is a lie that the eye did not evolve: Evolution of the eye.
12 June 2018 xianghua: It is a lie that the flagellum did not evolve: Evolution of the bacterial flagellum.

In case you come across other ID lies about irreducible complexity:
12 June 2018 xianghua: It is a lie that the blood clotting cascade did not evolve.
12 June 2018 xianghua: It is a lie that the mousetrap example is definitely irreducibly complex.

12 June 2018 xianghua: It is a probable lie that cilium motion is definitely irreducibly complex.
Bethe or other IDers have to first show that the "microtubules, connectors, and motors" do not have functional parts and that they could not have had other functions (the basic bit of biology that they were ignorant of).
 
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xianghua

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Very simple positive structures can form from neutral mutations that come from the random variation of life. At the simplest level a lot of these structures are just chemical reactions to light, stimuli or other chemicals.

again: how simple? even a small protein need about 100 aa for its function.

Here's a reasonably detailed run down of the Evolution of the flagella from Wikipedia.

its not detailed at all since they dont give any calculation or the number of changes in the amino acid level.
 
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xianghua

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I pointed this out to you many times now. Did you ever even look at it? Evolution of the bacterial flagellum

Granted it's a highly technical explanation and since English isn't your first language, you'll probably struggle with it. But you are asking for a detailed explanation and this is what you are getting.
see mt comment to shemjaza. its not so detailed unless they can show a real calculation.
 
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