Life at Conception is un-Christian

[Givemeareason]

Does anybody remember when the Southern Baptist Convention was pro-choice? Up to Jerry Falwell and his Moral Majority at least.. See the idea of life beginning at conception is nowhere in the Bible. Now I imagine verses are being used to support it now but in the old testament an induced miscarriage was just a civil dispute at best. And Jesus never addressed it. Therefore the old law was good enough for Jesus. But ol'Jerry was a pretty cunning dude. He wanted power money and influence. What he needed was to create a very divisive issue that society would never accept yet he could still sell it to his uninformed and misguided Christian following. He knew that fundamentalist Christians in,particular would line up behind him without thinking things thru. Big talkers but terrible listeners. And so the Life begins at Conception movement was started an ol'Jerry got rich. It's so bad now that many places are trying to enact laws which place the life of fetus over the life of the mother. But as ol'Jerry knew his fundamentalist following would do his bidding and never think twice.

 

[ananda]

Dissension creates opportunities for power and wealth. Peace is not economically profitable.

 

[jayem]

The crux of the issue is not life in the biological sense but personhood as a philosophic and legal concept. These two are really not the same (especially in the context of embryonic life,) but separating them may carry some distressing implications. Anti-abortion advocates have successfully conflated life with personhood, which admittedly is easier to grasp, and more comfortable for many people.

 

[football5680]

Abortion is evil and should be opposed. Christians throughout history have condemned abortion so this position is nothing new. Jesus didn't need to address something that was so blatantly obvious to the first 20 centuries of Christians. Abortion is murder so the Bible condemns this.

Life begins at conception because it takes an intervening action to prevent the development. Both the Old and New Testament show that we already have a soul long before we are born.

Also, where are you getting your information about Old Testament laws?

"an induced miscarriage was just a civil dispute at best."

"If people are fighting and hit a pregnant woman and she gives birth prematurely but there is no serious injury, the offender must be fined whatever the woman's husband demands and the court allows. But if there is serious injury, you are to take life for life," (Exodus 21:22-23)

Life for life applied even if the action was unintentional but occurred while you were doing something else bad. Today abortion is thought about beforehand and done with full consent so it is simply murder.

 

[ananda]

"If people are fighting and hit a pregnant woman and she gives birth prematurely but there is no serious injury, the offender must be fined whatever the woman's husband demands and the court allows. But if there is serious injury, you are to take life for life," (Exodus 21:22-23)

Perhaps ecclesiastical courts should handle this, as this definition exists in your religious "constitution"?

 

[jayem]

"If people are fighting and hit a pregnant woman and she gives birth prematurely but there is no serious injury, the offender must be fined whatever the woman's husband demands and the court allows. But if there is serious injury, you are to take life for life," (Exodus 21:22-23)

Life for life applied even if the action was unintentional but occurred while you were doing something else bad. Today abortion is thought about beforehand and done with full consent so it is simply murder.

You know there are other translations of that passage. The Revised English Bible (translated by very reputable experts from Oxford and Cambridge Universities) renders it differently:

"When in the course of a brawl, a man knocks against a pregnant woman so that she has a miscarriage but suffers no further injury, then the offender must pay whatever fine the woman's husband demands after assessment. But where injury ensues, you are to give life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, burn for burn, bruise for bruise, wound for wound."

This makes it clear that the loss of a fetus warrants a fine, but the greater crime occurs when the mother is injured. It's my understanding that among Orthodox Jews, a fetus--though it should never be aborted frivolously--is not considered a person until it takes its first breath. These are the people who still live by the OT laws, so they should know what that scripture really says.

 

[Givemeareason]

You know there are other translations of that passage. The Revised English Bible (translated by very reputable experts from Oxford and Cambridge Universities) renders it differently:

"When in the course of a brawl, a man knocks against a pregnant woman so that she has a miscarriage but suffers no further injury, then the offender must pay whatever fine the woman's husband demands after assessment. But where injury ensues, you are to give life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, burn for burn, bruise for bruise, wound for wound."

This makes it clear that the loss of a fetus warrants a fine, but the greater crime occurs when the mother is injured. It's my understanding that among Orthodox Jews, a fetus--though it should never be aborted frivolously--is not considered a person until it takes its first breath. These are the people who still live by the OT laws, so they should know what that scripture really says.

I remember stuff about how much the fines were to be also. The fine was always greater if the fetus was a boy as opposed to a girl. I also recall something about it being acceptable to kill the actual baby up to a month old. Yeh, that old testament sure was against abortion. [emoji15]

 

[Givemeareason]

Abortion is evil and should be opposed. Christians throughout history have condemned abortion so this position is nothing new. Jesus didn't need to address something that was so blatantly obvious to the first 20 centuries of Christians. Abortion is murder so the Bible condemns this.

Life begins at conception because it takes an intervening action to prevent the development. Both the Old and New Testament show that we already have a soul long before we are born.

Also, where are you getting your information about Old Testament laws?

"If people are fighting and hit a pregnant woman and she gives birth prematurely but there is no serious injury, the offender must be fined whatever the woman's husband demands and the court allows. But if there is serious injury, you are to take life for life," (Exodus 21:22-23)

Life for life applied even if the action was unintentional but occurred while you were doing something else bad. Today abortion is thought about beforehand and done with full consent so it is simply murder.

Better read you history better. Virtually everything you have said is nonsense. Sounds like ol'Jerry duped you too, huh.

"Christianity and abortion has a long and complex history as there is no explicit prohibition of abortion in either the Old Testament or New Testament books of theChristian Bible, and additionally, as that Jewish law is most often interpreted as that an unborn child has the status of "potential human life" until the majority of the body has emerged from the mother and that life begins at birth with breath through the nostrils, based on Genesis 2:7.[1][2] While some writers say that early Christians held different beliefs at different times about abortion,[3][4][5] others say that, in spite of the silence of the New Testament on the issue, they condemned abortion at any point of pregnancy as a grave sin,[6] a condemnation that they maintained even when some of them did not qualify as homicide the elimination of a fetus not yet "formed" and animated by a human soul.[7]"

Just do a search for Christianity and abortion.

 

[football5680]

Better read you history better. Virtually everything you have said is nonsense. Sounds like ol'Jerry duped you too, huh.

"Christianity and abortion has a long and complex history as there is no explicit prohibition of abortion in either the Old Testament or New Testament books of theChristian Bible, and additionally, as that Jewish law is most often interpreted as that an unborn child has the status of "potential human life" until the majority of the body has emerged from the mother and that life begins at birth with breath through the nostrils, based on Genesis 2:7.[1][2] While some writers say that early Christians held different beliefs at different times about abortion,[3][4][5] others say that, in spite of the silence of the New Testament on the issue, they condemned abortion at any point of pregnancy as a grave sin,[6] a condemnation that they maintained even when some of them did not qualify as homicide the elimination of a fetus not yet "formed" and animated by a human soul.[7]"

Just do a search for Christianity and abortion.

Do the slightest bit of research and it is clear abortion has been condemned. I have no idea who "Jerry whoever" is and have never listened to him. I just needed to respond to your clearly false statement based on no evidence.

 

[Givemeareason]

Do the slightest bit of research and it is clear abortion has been condemned. I have no idea who "Jerry whoever" is and have never listened to him. I just needed to respond to your clearly false statement based on no evidence.

Ol'Jerry was a major point of this thread. And I just pointed you to a ton of evidence.

 

[football5680]

Ol'Jerry was a major point of this thread. And I just pointed you to a ton of evidence.

Yes I saw your evidence copied and pasted from the top portion of a Wikipedia article on the subject but this is not in depth research. Abortion has always been condemned by the overwhelming majority of Christians throughout history. Every couple hundred years somebody might say that it is not necessarily murder depending on how early it was done but even when they say that they still condemn the action and classify it as major offense against God.

I don't know what Ol'Jerry says when he speaks but the condemnation of Abortion is the traditional historical Christian view. Why don't you condemn the organizations who steal Billions of dollars of tax payers money to slaughter the innocents?

 

[Givemeareason]

Yes I saw your evidence copied and pasted from the top portion of a Wikipedia article on the subject but this is not in depth research. Abortion has always been condemned by the overwhelming majority of Christians throughout history. Every couple hundred years somebody might say that it is not necessarily murder depending on how early it was done but even when they say that they still condemn the action and classify it as major offense against God.

I don't know what Ol'Jerry says when he speaks but the condemnation of Abortion is the traditional historical Christian view. Why don't you condemn the organizations who steal Billions of dollars of tax payers money to slaughter the innocents?

Well to start off what you just said is not true. Saying life begins at conception and then saying it is murder to end it is a pretty extreme point of view. It causes all sorts of problems with society and people's lives when such ridiculous and irresponsible laws try to get shoved through legislatures. And it distracts from truly important issues an allows crooked politicians and religious leaders to manipulate people into voting for politicians whose real goals are lining the pockets of big corporations and shipping US jobs overseas. On top of that it creates this hipocritical culture of fundamentalist religion that is dumbing down our nation and wasting resources and time for stupid agendas. So I would imagine the cost of tearing down America will far exceed the costs you are referring to.

 

[SoldierOfTheKing]

It's my understanding that among Orthodox Jews, a fetus--though it should never be aborted frivolously--is not considered a person until it takes its first breath.

Actually it's when it's thirty days old. If a baby dies before thirty days they don't say the kaddish.

This in no way implies that it is permissible to destroy life before that point. Before or after birth.

 

[Armoured]

Life at Conception is un-Christian

Certainly un-Jewish.

 

[Cearbhall]

Abortion is evil and should be opposed. Christians throughout history have condemned abortion so this position is nothing new.

Which Christian groups? When and where?

Good ol' Victorian era, making everyone believe that history was morally conservative and that the world is now falling to pieces...

 

[Archivist]

Abortion has always been condemned by the overwhelming majority of Christians throughout history

Any proof? Evidence?

 

[ken777]

/

Abortion has always been condemned by the overwhelming majority of Christians throughout history.

Seems you are right: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_Church_and_abortion#Church_doctrine

 

[fatherjimparker]

Does anybody remember when the Southern Baptist Convention was pro-choice? Up to Jerry Falwell and his Moral Majority at least.. See the idea of life beginning at conception is nowhere in the Bible. Now I imagine verses are being used to support it now but in the old testament an induced miscarriage was just a civil dispute at best. And Jesus never addressed it. Therefore the old law was good enough for Jesus. But ol'Jerry was a pretty cunning dude. He wanted power money and influence. What he needed was to create a very divisive issue that society would never accept yet he could still sell it to his uninformed and misguided Christian following. He knew that fundamentalist Christians in,particular would line up behind him without thinking things thru. Big talkers but terrible listeners. And so the Life begins at Conception movement was started an ol'Jerry got rich. It's so bad now that many places are trying to enact laws which place the life of fetus over the life of the mother. But as ol'Jerry knew his fundamentalist following would do his bidding and never think twice.

Conception is the starting point of the life of a new, unique human being.

Life begins at conception is at least as old as Christianity and, as I recall, none of the apostles got rich starting that movement. (See "Didache")

So, essentially, your post is dreck.

 

[Givemeareason]

Conception is the starting point of the life of a new, unique human being.

Life begins at conception is at least as old as Christianity and, as I recall, none of the apostles got rich starting that movement. (See "Didache")

So, essentially, your post is dreck.

[emoji107]

 

[fatherjimparker]

[emoji107]

Brilliant response.

You best effort, I assume.