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"Life and its building blocks are way too complicated to have evolved." [moved]

Hieronymus

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How many times do I have to remind you that the ToE simply does not address the metaphysical question of divine providence? No scientific theory does.
It is ABSENT in scientific theory.
Saying the theory is true therefore means denying God had anything to do with it.
You've just got your knickers in a twist because science does not validate your interpretation of scripture so you can't use science to browbeat non-YECs with your religion.
No, smartypants, YOU want to marry theism with atheism.
Good luck !
 
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Speedwell

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It is ABSENT in scientific theory.
Saying the theory is true therefore means denying God had anything to do with it.
So you must believe that the entirety of science denies the existence of God, along with applied sciences such as medicine and engineering.
 
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Hieronymus

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So you must believe that the entirety of science denies the existence of God, along with applied sciences such as medicine and engineering.
No, just popular "science" does that.

We'll be out of eachother's hair from now on by the way.

God bless.
 
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sfs

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As I previously pointed out....you are assuming the last 3 generations...were the same a 100 generations ago.
Well, no, you didn't previously point that out, but let's leave that aside.

We know something changed because after the flood the life spans shortened...then after the days of Peleg, they shortened again.

Bottom line...you haven't convinced me your mutation rate is as linear as you say it is. Your model is built on speculation.
Okay, we finally got a potential explanation from you: mutation rates used to be much higher than they are now, so lots of mutations occurred while the population size was still small. Let's consider how plausible that explanation is.

First, though, something I neglected to ask about previously: where are you getting your number of generations since Adam and Eve? At the moment, you've allowed yourself ~200 generations of a small population for mutations to accumulate, which would have to be in the period between the Flood and Abraham. That's not at all Biblical: Genesis lists nine generations for that period. So where did you get your estimate?

Back to the mutation rate. . .

First, your proposal doesn't make sense in terms of the creationist story you're telling. You're saying that while humans were degenerating, accumulating deleterious mutations and suffering dramatically shortened lifespans, their mutation rate was improving? And not just improving, but getting much, much better? Even if we allow that the long-lived guys had higher mutation rates because of lifespan (paternal mutation rates increase with age), mutation rates still had to have decreased by about a factor of ten since then. That's not consistent with the rest of your story.

Second, there's no physical mechanism by which this could happen. Mutation isn't a single process but many different ones, and no single effect will change the rate of all of them. Yet when we compare mutations happening today to ancient ones we've inherited, we see the same spectrum of different kinds of mutation. What could do that? For example, spontaneous deamination of methylated cytosines occurs at a rate pretty much determined just by basic chemistry and leaves a distinct signature of mutations, while incorporation of the wrong base during replication depends on the fidelity of the DNA polymerase and causes a very different set of mutations. What could have caused both basic chemistry and a particular enzyme to be so different a few thousand years ago, and in ways that happen to produce the same increase in mutation? It's not like we have any reason to think our DNA polymerase is any different than it ever was; today it's functionally the same as that seen in other primates. So what's supposed to have happened?

Third, we have independent evidence for the age of the mutations we're talking about. That evidence comes from associations between nearby genetic variants (technical term, "linkage disequilibrium"). When a new mutation occurs, the new variant appears on a particular chromosome having a particular set of other variants. It will be passed on to future generations along with those variants, unless recombination during meiosis breaks up the chromosome and combines it with a different one. But recombination only occurs about once every 80 million basepairs per generation, so the associations break down slowly. Recent mutations, then, will appear on long unbroken segments of chromosome, while older mutations will be on short segments. We thus have a good idea what recent mutations should look like. The mutation that confers lactose tolerance on many Europeans, for example, sits on a largely unbroken segment of DNA that is over a million basepairs long. Conveniently, we happen to know when that mutation spread in the European population, because researchers have tracked its rise in DNA samples from ancient skeletons: it became common around 4500 years ago. That's around the end of the time when -57's high mutation rate was contributing lots of mutations. If we look at 1% mutations throughout the genome, we find them on unbroken segments that are only 100,000 basepairs long, one tenth the length of the lactose mutation. 5% mutations are on even shorter segments, half as long again. Thus, the bulk of the genetic variants we see in the 1% - 5% range are at least 10 to 20 times older (in generations) than 4500 years ago. (That's actually a lower bound for complicated reasons I won't go into.)

Fourth, the processes that lead to new mutations in the next generation also produce the mutations that give us cancer. If people live long enough today, pretty much everyone gets cancer eventually, since the dangerous mutations continue to accumulate the longer you live. If mutation rates were really, say, 70 times higher per generation a few thousand years ago, then essentially everyone would have gotten cancer while still young. If anything, those enormously long life spans back then would have required a much lower mutation rate than we have so they could avoid cancer that long; instead, it's being proposed that their mutation rate was much higher than ours. Given that mutation rate, most of them would have been dead of cancer by age 20.

TL;DR version: the proposal that mutation rates used to be much higher has zero evidence in its favor, is not consistent even with creationist ideas, is contradicted by independent evidence about the age of mutations, is physically impossible, and would have caused everyone to die of cancer at a young age. Not a plausible proposal.

I will add that this kind of approach is pretty typical of creationists' engagement with scientific data. Where a scientist will try to find an explanation that explains new data in a way that's consistent with all existing data -- since that's the best way of figuring out what's really going on -- creationists will make ad hoc proposals in an effort to make inconvenient data go away.
 
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sfs

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Scientist have show they are not in the same place....all you are doing is...cut and paste.
No, scientists haven't shown that. We've shown that hundreds of thousands of them are in the same places in the genomes of different species. What you're claiming here didn't happen.
 
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sfs

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I already have in a previous post with several links.
You posted links showing that some ERVs are functional (which is not news), and that SINEs (which are not ERVs) can on rare occasions insert into the same location multiple times in a single species. I have never seen you provide evidence that ERV insertions thought to be in identical locations in different species are actually in different places. (It's not surprising that I haven't seen any evidence like that, since it isn't true.)
 
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doubtingmerle

I'll think about it.
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"And no, saying God did it is not the answer.".....and that would be incorrect.

God did do it. God in the account presented in Genesis clearly says He didn't youse the process called...EVOLUTIONISM.

Got it?
That depends whom you ask. Some Christians interpret Genesis 1 differently.

Per the title of this thread, I thought you were going to bring up a scientific reason to persuade us that your hypothesis of how nature's god did it is more scientific than the idea that nature's god used evolution. I see now that your response has nothing to do with science or reason, but with your interpretation of scripture.
 
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doubtingmerle

I'll think about it.
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Ignored you? NOPE...REFUTED you ...yes.
Ah, you have refuted the link with 29 evidences for macroevolution. I seem to have missed it. What was your refutation?
 
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doubtingmerle

I'll think about it.
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It is amazing that there are people that are brilliant with books but they can not even tie their shoe. They use to make comedy movies about absent minded professors that live their life in a world of books and could not function in the real world with the rest of us.
For what it is worth, I can not only understand books, but I can also tie my shoes. I think there are a few other folks like me also.

Now as I was saying, there is strong evidence for evolution. After all, if you look at the fossil record, you will find that life has been around for hundreds of millions of years, that life originally was simple and very different from modern life, but that it spread out in forms that grew progressively like modern life. How do you explain the fossil record if you don't accept evolution?

And no, "I can tie my shoes" is not the answer I will be looking for.
 
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USincognito

a post by Alan Smithee
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He didn't youse the process called...EVOLUTIONISM.

Of course he didn't. "Evolutionism" is a figment of your imagination. Evolution, however, is real.
 
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USincognito

a post by Alan Smithee
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There is no God in evolution, it's a naturalistic / atheistic model.

As is plate tectonic theory, germ theory of disease, the theory of relativity, etc. etc. Why do you have such a problem only with evolution?

A model that can not even explain what we observe in reality.

Evolution is a scientific theory, not a model and what do you mean by "can not even explain what we observe in reality"? Because evolution explains the life we observe now and in the fossil record.
 
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bhsmte

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How many times do i have to remind you that God is absent in the ToE ???

God is absent in all scientific theories, not just the TOE. You know, the scientific theories that impact your life, every hour of everyday.
 
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USincognito

a post by Alan Smithee
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Yes, atheistic model.

Where is the hand of God in the ToE?
It's not there.

Where is the hand of God in germ theory, plate tectonics, relativity, kinetic theory of gasses, dynamo theory, etc.? Why do you single out evolution?
 
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-57

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First, though, something I neglected to ask about previously: where are you getting your number of generations since Adam and Eve? At the moment, you've allowed yourself ~200 generations of a small population for mutations to accumulate, which would have to be in the period between the Flood and Abraham. That's not at all Biblical: Genesis lists nine generations for that period. So where did you get your estimate?

I counted the number of generations from Adam to Jesus. I think there were 73. That would be 73 in app 4,000 years. Then I took 1/2 of that and added it to the number considering there is appr 2,000 years between Christ and now.
The upper value was derived by dividing 6,000 years by 20. That would be if a generation is 20 years.
 
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joshua 1 9

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there is strong evidence for evolution. After all, if you look at the fossil record
Evolution hinges on the mutation theory. This claim means all of life is a result of mistakes, errors and random events. We know that God does not make mistakes. We also know that God knows the End from the Beginning. Even Evolution itself shows a clear plan and a clear design because all of Evolution is regulated by natural laws. When we understand the Laws of the Universe then we are better able to understand God and the plans that He has for us. Evolution does not take into consideration that all of Creation is in a fallen condition and God is doing a work of redemption and restoration. All of creation will be restored back to God's plan and purpose.
 
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joshua 1 9

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mutation rates used to be much higher than they are now
If you want to build something you have to have a foundation to build on. Or the storms of life will come and your whole mutation theory will come tumbling down.
 
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