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Robbie_James_Francis

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...by which I mean the basic idea of classic liberalism, not any meanings that are assigned to the label today.

Fundamentally, to me it means a basic separation of personal conceptions of 'good' and the idea of 'right' in the public sphere. That is, you can believe and act however you want as long as it doesn't infringe upon everyone else's ability to do the same or everyone's ability to act in the public sphere of basic liberty and equality.

In that sense, are we all liberals?
 

katautumn

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Sounds like anarchist ideology. The right to self-govern. The right to not have any governing bodies impeding with a person's self-expression and exercise of civil liberties. Sounds too good to be true. Unfortunately most people are not mature enough to live in a truly liberal society. Too many people like control. Those who lack control over their personal lives seek out weaker people to control. People who are insecure who need to point out the "speck in their brother's eye before removing the plank from their own."

I think it is pretty safe to say that in no way, shape or form are we all liberals in any sense of the word.
 
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Robbie_James_Francis

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I agree that there are a lot of illiberal beliefs out there, especially on this forum. But though you hear, for example, people arguing that gay marriage should not be allowed because their personal idea of good and bad doesn't permit it, you don't hear anyone arguing adultery should be punishable by law. Or that people of different religions shouldn't be permitted to hold authority in society.

So there remains some sort of conception of a separation between personal beliefs and the civic sphere.
 
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BlackSabb

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So there remains some sort of conception of a separation between personal beliefs and the civic sphere.



I put forward a motion that Robbie James Francis be name and shamed for that wild, unsubstantiated remark.

Stan1980, this could be the first entry.



























Hehe.
 
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cantata

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I put forward a motion that Robbie James Francis be name and shamed for that wild, unsubstantiated remark.

Stan1980, this could be the first entry.

Well, it would be unsubstantiated if he hadn't presented an argument for it in the previous paragraph :p
 
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Polycarp_fan

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About embracing Liberalsim. (Or rather not embracing it.)

Proverbs style:

There are six things the Lord hates—
no, seven things he detests:

haughty eyes,

a lying tongue,

hands that kill the innocent,

a heart that plots evil,

feet that race to do wrong,

a false witness who pours out lies,

a person who sows discord in a family.

My son, obey your father’s commands and don’t neglect your mother’s instruction.

Keep their words always in your heart.

Tie them around your neck. When you walk, their counsel will lead you. When you sleep, they will protect you. When you wake up, they will advise you.
 
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acropolis

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About embracing Liberalsim. (Or rather not embracing it.)

Proverbs style:

what does this have to do with liberalism.

and anyone who believes that a person's beliefs should not infringe on the beliefs of anyone else is infringing on my belief that everyone's beliefs should be the same as mine.
 
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Polycarp_fan

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Well, we know you do the aforementioned. I guess your god detests you then... your God is warming to me. :)

As long as your focus is on God and not people, my work here is bearing fruit. I'm thinking I may make a mistake or two. But "lie" you're accusation has no merit there.:cool: Look Ma, no sweat.:D

And I thought I was just having fun with common anti's and non's.:wave:
 
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Polycarp_fan

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what does this have to do with liberalism.

God could smell liberalism coming. Smells like sulfer burning. ;)

and anyone who believes that a person's beliefs should not infringe on the beliefs of anyone else is infringing on my belief that everyone's beliefs should be the same as mine.

:clap::clap::clap::clap::clap:

Reality of the liberal culture.
 
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wanderingone

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About embracing Liberalsim. (Or rather not embracing it.)

Proverbs style:

Besides the fact that people of any political leaning can be guilty of all these things --

I must reflect on how people of your.... beliefs would view all that honoring of parents and their teachings when that means respecting all kinds of beliefs you wouldn't be accepting of.

I agree with abiding the teachings of my parents... but they were Christian Socialists. Quite left wing, quite progressive. I fully embrace their teachings on social justice, tolerance, community service and self sacrifice. I don't live up to their example, the amount of hours my parents dedicated to community and church service is amazing to me, and at 73 my mother still dedicates more than 30 hours a week to her volunteer efforts as well as providing child care for 2 single parents for free so they can continue to attend college. I have raised my children to look up the standard my parents set, and I hope they will in turn raise any children they have to follow that example.
 
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Polycarp_fan

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Besides the fact that people of any political leaning can be guilty of all these things --

God is after all, God of all.

I must reflect on how people of your.... beliefs would view all that honoring of parents and their teachings when that means respecting all kinds of beliefs you wouldn't be accepting of.

One can tolerate all kinds of anti and non Christian beliefs if they follow the Apostolic witness.

I agree with abiding the teachings of my parents... but they were Christian Socialists.

Socialist like Hugo Chavez or Barack Obama?

Quite left wing, quite progressive.

But when does left-wing and progressive activities start to become heresy and false teachings? I'm thinking, when it contradicts and opposes the Apostolic witness. Which of course, includes the Gospel.

I fully embrace their teachings on social justice, tolerance, community service and self sacrifice.

And the taking of other peoples money and freedoms by liberal politicians? How Jesus is that?

I don't live up to their example, the amount of hours my parents dedicated to community and church service is amazing to me, and at 73 my mother still dedicates more than 30 hours a week to her volunteer efforts as well as providing child care for 2 single parents for free so they can continue to attend college.

Sounds very Apostolic. No veering or altering the New Testament teachings on helping neighbors.

I have raised my children to look up the standard my parents set, and I hope they will in turn raise any children they have to follow that example.

What about you and your examples?
 
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wanderingone

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God is after all, God of all.



Socialist like Hugo Chavez or Barack Obama?

Christian Socialist-

Christian as in Sunday school teaching, vacation bible school leading, urban mission organizing, soup kitchen starting, homebound nursing, choir singing, family praying, hymn singing, Christian

Socialist- as in highlander attending, community activism educating, union organizing, Cuba vacationing, red diaper baby raising socialists.


Obama is just NOT a socialist. In terms of American politics -among contemporary politicians and candidates Kucinich is consistently the most likely to get the support of people like my mother. (my father has passed)


But when does left-wing and progressive activities start to become heresy and false teachings? I'm thinking, when it contradicts and opposes the Apostolic witness. Which of course, includes the Gospel.

I don't find progressive politics to contradict scripture.


And the taking of other peoples money and freedoms by liberal politicians? How Jesus is that?

My parents were firm believers in the redistribution of wealth to insure that nobody does without. They complained not a bit about taxes, and they gave what was asked. Perhaps watching those who own the means of production getting rich off of those who don't contributed to their beliefs. I have not much to say about those who don't care to contribute to the well being of their neighbors but as Christians we were raised that there is nothing material that belongs to us, it's ours by grace and if someone else needs it then it's theirs.

Our home overflowed with people who needed our space. I have not the level of faith my parents have/had. I cannot shelter that many people- my fears overwhelm my faith.

I have been a recipient of help from the public in the form of food stamps, medicaid and cash assistance, for almost 3 years I had at least one form or another of that assistance. I got financial aid for college, I got heat subsidies and earned income tax credits over a period of 5 years. To now be in a position where I am not in need but can give, both in the form of adding to the central pool given out by the government and by reaching in my pocket to hand over what I have.

I don't see any of my freedoms being attacked by liberal politicians. What freedoms are you losing at the hand of liberal politicians. Liberal politicians ever show up on your doorstep to interrogate you about who had visited your home recently?

Our parents and neighbors were questioned regularly - the guys sitting in their cars across the street from our building would stop us kids as we came home from school and stick pictures in our face of various people and ask if we'd seem them lately. My parents never housed bomb building radicals, but the government seemed to think they did. My father was once arrested for refusing to allowing a police officer into the house to search for the abused wife and children of a fellow officer. We found that an extreme intervention on our freedoms.

Nobody in my family is particularly concerned about politicians, conservative or otherwise. They were socialists because they didn't believe in some notion of the rugged individualist who doesn't need anyone else and they supported politicians who seemed most likely to at least recognize the need for social justice.

What about you and your examples?

I hope they see that I strive to come close to the example set by my parents, and follow my example - but my parents outshine me by leaps and bounds, in all things I value I teach my children to look to the best resource for learning how to live those values.
 
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