Liberal

[Ringo84]

I'd like to say something that's been on my mind for a long time: I am sick and tired of seeing the word "liberal" thrown around like an insult, generalizations about liberals ("you liberals..." and "libs....", etc), and liberals in general being attacked and debased for their beliefs. It has to stop.

Neither on this forum or any other have I ever attacked anyone for simply being a conservative or a Republican. I don't necessarily have a problem with either one. But I do have a problem with extremists; especially the ones that can't seem to say anything without first insulting liberals in some way. You would think that that would earn me, as well as my beliefs (which I hold dear just as much as any conservative holds their beliefs), some respect. With some people, that doesn't seem possible.

Please don't give me that old line "liberals love to pretend that they're the ones that never insult and attack people", because that's not the point. I'm not here to justify every single thing every liberal in history has done. I am here to campaign on the behalf of myself and thousands of other liberals who are sick of being attacked, debased, smeared, and insulted at every turn. It's not fair and it's not Christian.

If you have a problem with something a liberal has done or has said, blame that liberal for it, rather than generalizing about all liberals. If it's true that all conservatives aren't created equally (that is to say, they think and act differently), then it must be true of liberals also. In my posts on this forum and others, I am very careful to use specific language that does not lump all conservatives and Republicans together. I don't always succeed, and I realize that. But I work very hard to try to stay as (truly) fair and balanced as I can be without compromising my own opinions.

And let's have no more of the "holier-than-thou" stuff either. I've had enough of that to last me for the next twenty years. The truth - no matter how some people may want to subvert it - is that everyone is a values voter. To say that I am not a "values voter" or that I'm not "moral" because I'm not a conservative or a Republican is insulting, in the face of the fact that I spend so much of my time thinking about the big ethical issues of the day and trying to decide the most ethical side to those issues. My moral values may be quite different than your own, but they're my deeply held convictions. I expect you to respect them - even if you disagree. In return, I will try my best to respect your beliefs also, even if I may strongly disagree with them.

I realize that people feel strongly about political and theological issues. There's nothing wrong with that - until you try to attack your opponent in order to prove your point. I only want my political/theological beliefs to be respected. Let's quit this partisan "liberals hate America" stuff and learn to respect those who disagree with us. That is, after all, a sure sign of maturity.
Ringo

 

[Valkhorn]

Here here.

 

[ImmortalTechnique]

why should i trust what a liberal says?

 

[Apex]

Do you have the same problem with "the religious right" or "conservative" ect....? This is not something that is just limited to one party or the other, both do it.

 

[utdbear]

one word....neo-con.

 

[RonPaulJr]

one word....neo-con.

It is not my fault that the authors of the Clean Break doctrine and PANC labeled themselves with a negatively connotative term.

 

[utdbear]

It is not my fault that the authors of the Clean Break doctrine and PANC labeled themselves with a negatively connotative term.

Then I'm sure you'll have no problem with me kicking back when you use it on me, seeings as I had nothing to do with either of those.

 

[RonPaulJr]

Then I'm sure you'll have no problem with me kicking back when you use it on me, seeings as I had nothing to do with either of those.

If you are support the positions support off the two then of course the term “neo-con” is applicable because that is the line of thought you would be supporting. I would not use that term to describe you or anyone else for that matter, if it was not in the correct context.
Feel free to call me a liberal all you want because that only furthers the notion that those on the right use the term to discredit, especially when it used against a member of the right.

 

[praying]

What is stated in the OP applies to both liberals and conservatives. All side do it and all sides should try not to.

 

[ImmortalTechnique]

i worry that the political discourse in this country has fallen beyond repair. when most people get their opinions handed to them by michael moore or rush limbaugh, and don't think for themselves, we're in trouble.

when people actually believe that the liberals want America to lose or that your average republican wants to steal your rights and install Bush as a dictator, we're in trouble.

when any election decided by less than 1% is seen as a mandate by either party, and we have winner take all elections because people vote down a party line, we have a problem.

we have a problem because a slight majority doesn't mean that one party will have slightly more influence. it means that they have all the influence. we have politicians ignoring the business of the country to suggest bills that the other party will vote against and defeat so that they can misrepresent their opponent's records in the next election. the system is screwed, and its because we ignored the admonishment to avoid a two party system. its worse because we try to make republican and democrat mean the same thing to everyone. A republican and democrat from Wisconsin should have more in common than a democrat from Wisconsin and a democrat from California. Bills should pass almost unanimously in Congress, after compromises have been made which give people their representative power, rather than passing on party line votes. Bills coming from Congress should be 51% democrat, not 100%. But nobody plays nice anymore. Its seen as a war, and its going to bring the system crashing down.

 

[Alarum]

The problem is liberal is an absurdly broad term in its usage. Socialists, Communists, anarchists, environmentalists, anyone who opposes the Iraq war, anyone who wants higher minimum wage, anyone who wants to see the people responsible for war crimes prosecuted, anyone who says the Iraq war was a bad idea - this is not a coalition. These are not people who share goals.

Conservative is developing a similarly broad umbrella, and has headed straight into useless as well.

Neo-Con - New conservative, an economic conservative with an expansionist, imperialist agenda. Useful term, as it rather accurately describes PNAC and the Bush Doectorine.

Paleoconservative - old school conservative. Seeks moral social controls, but a more isolationist doctorine, a small government, and minimal government intervention.

Libertarian - Don't need to describe this one.

You could split liberal out like this too. The problem is, with the size of the 'umbrella' that liberal covers, it would be almost a pointless exercise. Figuring out what anarcho-syndicalists, communists, people who dislike the Iraq war, and environmentalists have in common is a pretty big order.

 

[Ringo84]

i worry that the political discourse in this country has fallen beyond repair. when most people get their opinions handed to them by michael moore or rush limbaugh, and don't think for themselves, we're in trouble.

when people actually believe that the liberals want America to lose or that your average republican wants to steal your rights and install Bush as a dictator, we're in trouble.

when any election decided by less than 1% is seen as a mandate by either party, and we have winner take all elections because people vote down a party line, we have a problem.

we have a problem because a slight majority doesn't mean that one party will have slightly more influence. it means that they have all the influence. we have politicians ignoring the business of the country to suggest bills that the other party will vote against and defeat so that they can misrepresent their opponent's records in the next election. the system is screwed, and its because we ignored the admonishment to avoid a two party system. its worse because we try to make republican and democrat mean the same thing to everyone. A republican and democrat from Wisconsin should have more in common than a democrat from Wisconsin and a democrat from California. Bills should pass almost unanimously in Congress, after compromises have been made which give people their representative power, rather than passing on party line votes. Bills coming from Congress should be 51% democrat, not 100%. But nobody plays nice anymore. Its seen as a war, and its going to bring the system crashing down.

Exactly.
Ringo

 

[Ringo84]

Do you have the same problem with "the religious right" or "conservative" ect....? This is not something that is just limited to one party or the other, both do it.

I know. Maybe I didn't make that clear enough in my OP (is that the right word?) Both sides need to show the other at least the respect of not calling them various names simply for expressing an opinion.
Ringo

 

[mothcorrupteth]

Darn tootin', ImmortalTechnique.

 

[The_Horses_Boy]

Neither on this forum or any other have I ever attacked anyone for simply being a conservative or a Republican.

Yeah that's right, no one ever attacks anyone for simply being a conservative, they "reason" that conservatives are bigots and wife-beaters, then attack them. I'd rather that everyone just cut the bs.

 

[Ringo84]

Yeah that's right, no one ever attacks anyone for simply being a conservative, they "reason" that conservatives are bigots and wife-beaters, then attack them. I'd rather that everyone just cut the bs.

Why don't you cut the BS. I never said that. And I'm not responsible for what other people say. I thought I made that clear.
Ringo

 

[JustOneWay]

I agree with you Ringo. "Liberal" is used as if it is a dirty word.

 

[Ringo84]

I agree with you Ringo. "Liberal" is used as if it is a dirty word.

Thanks.

That's right; it's used more as an epithet than a noun. I've had to deal with this for six years and I'm sick of it. My values deserve the same respect as any conservative's.

I don't know when the word liberal started to become a bad word (the 80s?) but it's got to stop. This kind of character assassination is one-sided and unfair. I'm going to start fighting against it.
Ringo

 

[Glaz]

I agree with you Ringo. "Liberal" is used as if it is a dirty word.

So is 'fundie'.

 

[JustOneWay]

So is 'fundie'.

I dont see how this applies to the Op.

Fundy can and has been used as a derogatory term although it is usually directed to a smaller group of people....primarily right leaning religious conservatives. Liberal, on the other hand, can and is used as a derogatory term that covers a much larger range of people....primarily anybody who isn't conservative or align with conservative values. I am often called liberal as an insult even though I am pro life, believe in small government and governmental intervention, and agree more with personal responsibility as opposed to government handouts.

Many, at least on this forum, use liberal (among other terms) as a phrase to insult anybody who disagrees with the Bush administration.