Liberal Christians

[Hentenza]

I believe the scriptures are the word of God, and that they can be relied upon for all things (in the correct context and such).

The word of God is absolute truth which means that it is true for everyone, everywhere, every time. If one studies the history of liberal Christianity one common theme becomes evident and that is the removal of God from scripture effectively making the bible a human only construct. The problem then is that humans alone are errant consequently the scriptures then could not possibly be the word of God and then they could not be reliable. You see the conundrum?

I would be a fool, however, to say that there is no possibility at all that the opposite is true.

Well, here is how scriptures define a fool.

Psalm 53
1The fool has said in his heart, "There is no God,"

It's just a premise, but an undeniable one at that.

faith is not the same as proof.

I can deny it.

 

[BondiHarry]

I believe the scriptures are the word of God, and that they can be relied upon for all things (in the correct context and such).

I would be a fool, however, to say that there is no possibility at all that the opposite is true.

It's just a premise, but an undeniable one at that.

faith is not the same as proof.

Well R&R, I think the truth that it is sinful to divorce without great cause, to fornicate, to engage in homosexual matings, to abuse alcohol, to steal, to covet, to look to the wisdom of men over the wisdom of God are being shown to be true spotlighted by how society unravels when we do what God tells us not to do.

That also goes to 'testing' the spirit that answers us when we pray or otherwise seek God. There are opportunistic spirits like Satan who will respond to our pleadings, appear as angels of light and say essentially 'you are seeking God, well you've found Him' and man gets so wowed that there is a response that they don't look closely at what that spirit is teaching. Satan and his minions are quite comfortable teaching many aspects of the truth so long as they can insert a trojan horse of error that will ultimately lead the unwary man to his destruction. No worker of iniquity will inherit the kingdom of God yet you and other liberals say 'we can't really know what iniquity is, sure the Bible says such and such is iniquity but it was written by men so we can't really be sure'.

It is fine to question, to seek answers for the things you do not understand but it is not fine to make God an impotent deity who is so weak that men could put their own meaning in scripture that God intends for our tutor. The falling away from the truth that we are seeing in the church just shows me yet again the Bible IS the inerrant word of God ... "professing themselves wise, they became fools'.

 

[religious&reasonable]

Well R&R, I think the truth that it is sinful to divorce without great cause, to fornicate, to engage in homosexual matings, to abuse alcohol, to steal, to covet, to look to the wisdom of men over the wisdom of God are being shown to be true spotlighted by how society unravels when we do what God tells us not to do.

That also goes to 'testing' the spirit that answers us when we pray or otherwise seek God. There are opportunistic spirits like Satan who will respond to our pleadings, appear as angels of light and say essentially 'you are seeking God, well you've found Him' and man gets so wowed that there is a response that they don't look closely at what that spirit is teaching. Satan and his minions are quite comfortable teaching many aspects of the truth so long as they can insert a trojan horse of error that will ultimately lead the unwary man to his destruction. No worker of iniquity will inherit the kingdom of God yet you and other liberals say 'we can't really know what iniquity is, sure the Bible says such and such is iniquity but it was written by men so we can't really be sure'.

It is fine to question, to seek answers for the things you do not understand but it is not fine to make God an impotent deity who is so weak that men could put their own meaning in scripture that God intends for our tutor. The falling away from the truth that we are seeing in the church just shows me yet again the Bible IS the inerrant word of God ... "professing themselves wise, they became fools'.

I'm not a liberal, I'm a moderate.

Liberalism (IMHO which is subject to criticism and change at any point),

And I yes I said we can never be sure (that's just part of my mindset), but I never said to use that as a reason to pass a left leaning or right leaning law. My arguement is one that could never be used to pass a law, only to prevent a law from being passed.

And I've always been under the impression that we man, whter it be conservative or liberal, always puts their own meaning in. I could make the arguement that once again we don't know who is actually right, but th at would never lead to a productive discussion.

I would never profess myself wise (well maybe sometimes but that is always when I am acting th emost foolish), but what you are saying applies to both conservatives and liberals. Many liberals belive homosexuality is a sin (not temptation itself but the action of course), just as I know some conservatives who beleive it isn't. Yes, there are ba dliberals, just as there are bad conservatives, just as there are ba christians, just as there are bad muslims.

As I see it, Liberalism is the idea in the philosophical sense that everything is open to interpretation, and is the idea in the practical sense that men are equal, therefore share the wealth.

You can agree or disagree with these views, and even my definition itself, but do not assume that since some Liberals have a different perspective (howver misguiding it is), that they are the tools of Satan or such.

Once again, just a premise, but for all we know they could be the ones who have the correct interpretation, no matter how unlikeley it seems.(<--- this isn't part of my arguement, just something I wanted to point out)

 

[BondiHarry]

I'm not a liberal, I'm a moderate.

Liberalism (IMHO which is subject to criticism and change at any point),

And I yes I said we can never be sure (that's just part of my mindset), but I never said to use that as a reason to pass a left leaning or right leaning law. My arguement is one that could never be used to pass a law, only to prevent a law from being passed.

And I've always been under the impression that we man, whter it be conservative or liberal, always puts their own meaning in. I could make the arguement that once again we don't know who is actually right, but th at would never lead to a productive discussion.

I would never profess myself wise (well maybe sometimes but that is always when I am acting th emost foolish), but what you are saying applies to both conservatives and liberals. Many liberals belive homosexuality is a sin (not temptation itself but the action of course), just as I know some conservatives who beleive it isn't. Yes, there are ba dliberals, just as there are bad conservatives, just as there are ba christians, just as there are bad muslims.

As I see it, Liberalism is the idea in the philosophical sense that everything is open to interpretation, and is the idea in the practical sense that men are equal, therefore share the wealth.

You can agree or disagree with these views, and even my definition itself, but do not assume that since some Liberals have a different perspective (howver misguiding it is), that they are the tools of Satan or such.

Once again, just a premise, but for all we know they could be the ones who have the correct interpretation, no matter how unlikeley it seems.(<--- this isn't part of my arguement, just something I wanted to point out)

It would be one thing if liberals practiced what they preach in their own groups and let those of us who disagree with them not have to particpate. However, they FORCE their 'interpretation' on us and sugar coat what they are doing, they do covet the property of their neighbor and use the power of government to steal it. By court action they have gutted our Constitution and have transformed our Federal government from one that protected the God given rights of the people to being a deadly threat to our rights (the right of babies to their lives, the right of men to their property, the right of men to freely practice their religion etc).

We will serve either God or Satan and liberals having 'interpreted' the truth of God's word OUT of His word, they show who they do serve.

 

[sealacamp]

certain premises that may or may not exist since there is no sure way of knowing if everything or anything is correct.

There is a sure way of knowing something is correct or incorrect. You are mistaken.

I'm not playing your games any more Sealacamp, I've got better and more productive things to do with my time.

I see. So that means you won't answer the question. Most likely because your answer would go against Gods word, which you don't believe to be 100% reliable, when in fact it is. Thank you for dancing around the issue again, and again, and again. You have made your position perfectly clear to me. It would appear that taking a firm stand for God and His word is not something you are very interested in despite your claims otherwise. Because if you were interested in doing that you would denounce this:

do not view homosexuality or sexual reassignment as sin or unnatural.

They believe the Bible to be a valuable resource, but not free from error.

quickly and decisively instead of [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] footing around the issue. I appreciate you bringing clarity to me.

We will serve either God or Satan and liberals having 'interpreted' the truth of God's word OUT of His word, they show who they do serve.

Amen! That pretty much summarizes the last 70 or 80 years.

Sealacamp

 

[lismore]

It appears that many of you are confusing Politics with Faith; "Conservative" and "Liberal" are political labels, not religious faith.

Hello

It always strikes me that a lot of American brothers and sisters see themselves as Conservative, without having many of the things a Conservative would have over here!

In my experience Conservatives and Conservative Christians are very pro-monarchy. The USA does not have a monarchy and so are extremely liberal already anyway.

Just a little aside

 

[BondiHarry]

Hello

It always strikes me that a lot of American brothers and sisters see themselves as Conservative, without having many of the things a Conservative would have over here!

In my experience Conservatives and Conservative Christians are very pro-monarchy. The USA does not have a monarchy and so are extremely liberal already anyway.

Just a little aside

The funny thing is 'conservatives' in America are more truly the classic liberals of yesterday fighting for the liberty of people against government oppression and the 'liberals' in America are the ones fighting to reinstitute statist government and therefore are more truly the 'monarchists' (not that they would have a king but that they would embrace a divine right of government that is not unlike the divine right of kings).

 

[Cris413]

It appears that many of you are confusing Politics with Faith; "Conservative" and "Liberal" are political labels, not religious faith.

<snip>

Actually...the terms liberal and conservative can be rightly applied to many things.

For instance one can spend money “liberally” meaning they spend a good deal of money with little savings. Or one can be more “conservative” with their finances…spending less money and saving more.

Basically as an adjective liberal means to reform or change or "progress"

And conservative means slow to change, honoring traditional values over reforming them.

So as these terms would apply to religion or faith would be that liberal Christianity seeks to progress or reform or change long standing beliefs or tenets of faith…or continually reforming those beliefs and such. (Which we see happening at an exponential rate as the years go by)

Where conservative Christianity seeks rather to preserve or restore traditional beliefs and/or tenets of faith. (Which we see conservative Christians speaking out more and more about…defending these traditional tenets of faith as they become more and more reformed)

Evidence of this is quite clear in the difference between the “statements of purpose” here in CC and in WWMC.

CC establishes traditional tenets of faith. These tenets of faith/Scripture still mean what they meant hundreds of years ago…and absolute truth never changes.

Where WWMC establishes reform/change of these tenets….certain tenets of faith/Scripture are no longer valid…and understandings need to progress and change…along with societal changes. There is no longer any such thing as absolute truth and moral relativism rules the day.

Same thing with politics and IMHO using the same adjectives to describe both does not necessarily indicate confusing the two.

 

[QuakerOats]

There is no longer any such thing as absolute truth and moral relativism rules the day.

I must respectfully disagree. Many liberal-minded individuals believe in an 'absolute truth,' it's simply a matter of not [always] agreeing on what that is. For instance, we might both say that God is 'absolute truth,' but where we differ is in how we view God, though we both read from the same bible.

 

[religious&reasonable]

I must respectfully disagree. Many liberal-minded individuals believe in an 'absolute truth,' it's simply a matter of not [always] agreeing on what that is. For instance, we might both say that God is 'absolute truth,' but where we differ is in how we view God, though we both read from the same bible.

^^this.

and btw your name is awesome.

 

[QuakerOats]

^^this.

and btw your name is awesome.

Thank you.

 

[BlackSabb]

It certainly could be the start of the falling away. That is for sure!

The wine that Jesus drank I would imagine was not fermented.

You would "imagine?" Based on your imaginings of the scripture, you are happy to classify someone like me as a "liberal?" I agree with everything else you said in regards to your lament of liberal Christianity.

But it is utterly unfair to proclaim someone as "liberal" and compromising because you personally "imagine" Jesus drinking unfermented wine. Common sense tells you that wine in the Bible is always fermented. Why otherwise the strong admonition about drinking too much and getting drunk? You can't do that with unfermented grape juice.

Where the Bible is explicit in morality, it is fair if you qualify others as liberal. The Bible says to be sober minded. That means no drunkeness, no getting high on drugs and IMO, no "drunk in the spirit" as some so called churches practice.

The Bible is clear on plenty of other matters. But drinking in moderation is not absolute clear cut and there are plenty of legitimate Biblical arguments in support of it.

Do not label me "liberal" because of just this one thing that you and I don't see eye to eye on. You calling me liberal doesn't make me one.

 

[lismore]

The funny thing is 'conservatives' in America are more truly the classic liberals of yesterday fighting for the liberty of people against government oppression and the 'liberals' in America are the ones fighting to reinstitute statist government and therefore are more truly the 'monarchists' (not that they would have a king but that they would embrace a divine right of government that is not unlike the divine right of kings).

By that criteria liberalism would be good then, a fight for liberty against tyranny.

There does seem to be a tyrannical element in Christianity who insist everyone must believe the same on peripherial issues, sometimes that tyrannical element goes against the bible too!

E.G Drinking wine is wrong and yet Jesus turned water into wine and passed around a cup of wine at the last supper.

 

[BondiHarry]

By that criteria liberalism would be good then, a fight for liberty against tyranny.

American 'liberals' have embraced a word that does have a noble past but they have no right to use it because they push the very tyranny that true liberals fought against.

There does seem to be a tyrannical element in Christianity who insist everyone must believe the same on peripherial issues, sometimes that tyrannical element goes against the bible too!

E.G Drinking wine is wrong and yet Jesus turned water into wine and passed around a cup of wine at the last supper.

Yes tyrannical (man made doctrines) do seem in play. There can be no argument that drunkeness is a harmful thing and condemned by God but it is a rewriting of scripture to say the Jesus turned water into grape juice, the word used for wine and the setting make it obvious that He turned the water into fermented wine and that same word for wine is used often in the Bible. Drinking like eating and other human activities when done in moderation does no harm, it is when it is done in excess (and for some people even one drink may be excess) that it becomes harmful. God calls men to holiness but as Colossians 2:16 says "let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath [days]" and yet a lot of people want to judge others not simply on holy living but on many matters that have nothing to do with salvation.

Considering how some Christians insist on trying to legislate morals I found 1 Peter 4:15 to be very interesting that God condemns being a busybody in other mens matters.

 

[Matariki]

I'm a Conservative Christian.

 

[sealacamp]

By that criteria liberalism would be good then, a fight for liberty against tyranny.

There does seem to be a tyrannical element in Christianity who insist everyone must believe the same on peripherial issues, sometimes that tyrannical element goes against the bible too!

E.G Drinking wine is wrong and yet Jesus turned water into wine and passed around a cup of wine at the last supper.

That is not what the issue is here nor has it been construed that way. Rather there are major points that Gods word states is one way or the other and certain liberals say that Gods word is wrong. For example Gods word says:

All Scripture is inspired by God and is useful to teach us what is true and to make us realize what is wrong in our lives.

Please note that it does not say some.

But the liberal says:

They believe the Bible to be a valuable resource, but not free from error.

Well that flies in the face of what Gods word says is true. One or the other is true because they can't both be.

Another example is Gods word states:

Don’t fool yourselves. Those who indulge in sexual sin, or who worship idols, or commit adultery, or are male prostitutes, or practice homosexuality, or are thieves, or greedy people, or drunkards, or are abusive, or cheat people—none of these will inherit the Kingdom of God.

But the liberal says:

do not view homosexuality or sexual reassignment as sin or unnatural.

That is absolutely untrue and completely disagrees with Gods word. In fact there are certain liberals here who can't even admit that this premise that they are so proud of is flat out wrong. Frankly I can't even understand that because if you don't agree with God how can you walk with Him.

Oh of course we are all sinners, and the saved sinner is merely covered by the blood of Jesus so God doesn't see how impure we really are, yet He knows. Now none of us that are save walk the walk of intentional sin and each one strives to be like Jesus with a humble and repentant heart. So the issue is this, when anyone says that what God says is wrong is in fact not wrong that is an intentional rebellion against God. There is no repentance in that, there is no remorse, there is no turning away or desire to change. In fact the desire is to be as errant as one would like and still walk with God. Well it can't happen! And when it does happen then the whole bible must be proven to be a lie. But sadly the bible is not the lie and those that would paint a different picture are purely deceived, lost, spaced with out a trace, deep in the woods of denial, etc. That is what we have been talking about, not wine or no wine. As if that wasn't apparent anyway. Yet those that want to cling to an anti-Christian liberal doctrine can't stand the light of truth so they conversation gets turned away from the real issues toward something to distract from what is truly important, that is truly a matter of life and death, of salvation or damnation. I, for one, pray for the lost because only the Lord Himself can open your eyes yet the word of the Lord is perfectly clear and what God has declared unclean is just that and what He has declared clean is that as well, no matter what people may say or how they want to construe it.

Sealacamp

 

[DLC]

[FONT='Verdana','sans-serif']I am a conservative Biblicist. I am not a part of any denomination. I am just a s concerned about the way the church is heading as you are. When the church becomes complacent towards worldlyism then Satan has won. Christians are to love not the world not the things that are in the world. Dress does matter to God. If He is to be in control of our whole life then what part of our life is He not in control of? Everything. Everything matters to God. I love Hymns, and classical Christian music. I do not drink or smoke. I love sharing Christ with others. I use gentle persuasion to encourage Christians to clean up their act for God. The church is becoming like the world more quickly than at any other time I can remember. The church is losing its savor. [/FONT]
[FONT='Verdana','sans-serif'][/FONT]
[FONT='Verdana','sans-serif']DC[/FONT]

 

[lismore]

That is not what the issue is here nor has it been construed that way. Rather there are major points that Gods word states is one way or the other and certain liberals say that Gods word is wrong.

Hello there

Thanks for your message.

When you talk about major points in God's word, I dont think homosexuality is a major point. It has only a handful of references in the bible, none from Jesus. I think there are other more major issues.

If we look at the bible, homosexuality is mentioned four or five times, on the other hand bigger areas like greed, provision for the poor, hypocrisy........these are bigger areas the bible and Jesus talks about at great length.

Some Christians are obsessed with homosexuality. IMO it covers only a small percentage of the population, while there are more pressing issues to consider. What about the control, hypocrisy and greed in the church? If you look at the ministry of Jesus he covers these issues many times.

The conservatives of his day, the pharisees were the people who caused Jesus most trouble, not the tax collectors, the prostitutes and the 'sinners'. Indeed Jesus said that the prostitues were entering the kingdom of God before the religious leaders.

On the issue of the bible. I believe we should take note of the spirit of the law, not the letter of the law. People get emotional about 'God's word' but nobody living takes the whole bible literally. If we did we would still have slavery, we would kill disobedient children, burn witches, cut people's hand's off, commit genocide etc. People who get cagey on this issue are generally pushing a few pet doctrines, but ignoring much of the rest of the bible. Those who rant and rave about homosexuals generally havent sold all they have and given the money to the poor, or indeed killed a neighbour for doing gardening work on a saturday. All Christians in my experience cherry pick and interpret the bible. There are varying passages that all groups, even the most conservative, try to avoid taking literally.

But you do not make it by keeping the law.

The greatest commandment is to love the Lord and love your neighbour as yourself. To love in this way is better than all rituals and sacrifices........so said Jesus........ we should not judge the heart of a person, only God can.

In my experience conservatives become bogged down in the minutae and sometimes miss the big point.

Take for example finances. In my experience Conservative churches charge a 10% levy on income and threaten people with hellfire and damnation when they dont pay it. I have been in a church that taught such a thing.

The bible says 'freewill offering'. Everyone should give what he has determined in his heart, not reluctantly or under compulsion, because God loves a cheerful giver. The bible does not say that non tithers will burn.

My view of 'liberalism' is freedom, that freewill God has given us, but which Conservative religious groups like the pharisees, the kirk session, the inquisition and the Taliban would take away from us.

That is not to say we should use freedom to do evil. God will judge each one according to his deeds. But only God can judge because onyl God knows all things.

FInally one of the dictionary definitions of 'liberal' is generous. God says the generous man will prosper.

God Bless You

 

[lismore]

Well that flies in the face of what Gods word says is true.

Hello there

I think you have to remember that the books of the bible were written in a specific context, a specific time and a specific place.

It has also been translated once, perhaps twice and there are several different original versions floating about. For example this verse:

Exodus 12:40
Now the length of time the Israelite people lived in Egypt was 430 years.

The septuagint has a difference, 'Egypt and Canaan 430 years'. Implying the Israelites were in Egypt 215 years only. So, which original is correct? if you check the footnotes of your bible on this verse, you will see what I mean.

The bible also does not set out a list of which books are meant to be in it, Jesus did not give a list of which books were meant to be in or out, hence the NT can quote from books that didn't make it into the OT. Jude can quote from Enoch, but Enoch was not deemed by the Church Councils to be inspired. Therefore bishops decided what was God's word and what wasnt.

The Protestant Reformers gave us a Canon of 66 books, 39 OT 27 NT. They were good men, but not infallible. We should not eb afraid to scrutinise their decisions.

Sometimes it's easy to get wires crossed, some 'liberals' might be trying to raise issues like these, without necessarily questionning your faith in God.

It's always good to discuss such issues! The truth does not fear scutiny.

God Bless

 

[Hentenza]

[FONT='Verdana','sans-serif']I am a conservative Biblicist. I am not a part of any denomination. I am just a s concerned about the way the church is heading as you are. When the church becomes complacent towards worldlyism then Satan has won. Christians are to love not the world not the things that are in the world. Dress does matter to God. If He is to be in control of our whole life then what part of our life is He not in control of? Everything. Everything matters to God. I love Hymns, and classical Christian music. I do not drink or smoke. I love sharing Christ with others. I use gentle persuasion to encourage Christians to clean up their act for God. The church is becoming like the world more quickly than at any other time I can remember. The church is losing its savor. [/font]
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[FONT='Verdana','sans-serif']DC[/font]

Not my church. Salt a plenty in mine.

BTW- Are we not exhorted in scripture to be part of the body? Doesn't that entail being part of a church?