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Liberal Catholic

Rhamiel

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what does it mean to be "liberal" in the context of being a Liberal Catholic?

in another thread (that is now closed) I was starting to get into this topic, but my words were clumsy and maybe uncharitable

so what do we mean by "theologically liberal" and "theologically conservative"

to be honest.... I normally shy away from these terms because they are so politically charged
 
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Meowzltov

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I came into this subforum because I don't have strong beliefs. That doesn't mean I don't aspire and pray to come into conformity with the magisterium. It just means I can't shut up my mind. I don't know if that makes me a liberal or not, honestly. I just know I don't really fit into the other camp. Let's sum it up this way: I don't profess anything contrary to the magisterium, but I have an incredible amount of questions, and I see conservatives as people who don't ask questions.

As to the general terms, I have adopted the general idea that liberals enjoy change even when change may be harmful, and conservatives enjoy stability even when it is stagnant. However, change can be necessary, and stability is a good thing, and so the world needs both liberals and conservatives.

I'm so much more comfortable with service! LOL
 
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mark46

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what does it mean to be "liberal" in the context of being a Liberal Catholic?

in another thread (that is now closed) I was starting to get into this topic, but my words were clumsy and maybe uncharitable

so what do we mean by "theologically liberal" and "theologically conservative"

to be honest.... I normally shy away from these terms because they are so politically charged

A SAFE PLACE FOR POLITICAL LIBERALS

First, let us get something out of the way. Political liberals are routinely called "non-Christians" or worse on some CF sub boards. So, for political liberals who happen the be Catholic, this board is a safe place to discuss issues, especially over the next couple of years.

Many issues that the Church and its bishops speak out upon have significant political importance. In fact, US bishops speak out with regards to the Catholic view on various political issues all the time.

Supporting immigration reform, programs for the poor and various other parts of the social gospel should not be an issue of faith. BUT IT IS made so.

ONE CONCLUSION
"Liberal" Catholics are those who support the social gospel and put a great emphasis on such issues as gun control, death penalty, immigration reform, prison reform, and medical care for the poor.

"Liberal" Catholics tend NOT to care as much about the moral issues so central in the minds of political conservatives: discrimination against homosexuals, contraception and abortion.

THEOLOGICALLY LIBERAL AND CONSERVATIVE
To me, to be theologically conservative is to profess the creeds of the Church. A theologically conservative Catholic also believe in Real Presence, the Tradition of the Church, in apostolic succession, and in the papacy. To be "theologically liberal" is to question some of the central dogmas of the Church.

Some would go much further. They would call any questioning of the Magesterium or pope as being the hallmarks of a liberal, and any questioning of the man-made rules and regulations.

MY BOTTOM LINE
is that I am a liberal Catholic. Most know what this mean when they see it. It does not mean that I question any of the central dogma of the faith. It does mean that I am willing to discuss the possibilities that we have discussed here such as married priests and female priests. I am willing to discuss the requirements for marriage. I will discuss secular rights for homosexuals and homosexual couples. I am indeed a political liberal, as I would guess most of us are. It usually means that I am more accepting of those of other faith walks, Christian and non-Christian. In this sense, our pope has been called a liberal.

Of course some think a liberal Catholic as someone who questions somethe very foundations of our faith and Tradition.
 
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Fish and Bread

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Liberalism at it's core is about inclusion and giving people wider latitude to be themselves free from discrimination or judgement. In a political sense, that may mean supporting a strong social safety net for the poor and those who may one day be poor, defending the human and civil rights of all people and especially minorities who's rights are more frequently violated, and so on and so forth.

In a theological sense it may involve supporting some or all of those political initiatives, but it also means being sticking up for the little guy (or gal) when it comes to religious matters, protecting human rights, and trying to include as many points of view as possible. My inclination would be to say that if you want a forum where everyone insists that homosexuality and abortion are the only two issues and that hating on homosexuals trumps people getting health care they need to survive or making sure the elderly and disabled get a monthly check so they can live lives of dignity and choice, then this may not be a place you'll enjoy. I don't think we're going to wind up having "litmus test" type issues, but at the same time the liberal in the name does lend the impression that we'll be leaning towards a certain mode of thought, though individual posters may not lean entirely that way and can still be liberal or progressive. I think the idea of the forum is to allow people to say what is in their hearts, particularly stuff from a liberal or progressive perspective.

In real life, progressives also sometimes favor things like married clergy, female clergy, homosexual clergy, gay marriage, and so on and so forth. The rules of the site limit what we can say about homosexuality, and not every progressive is going to support female clergy or married clergy or whatever. *However*, in this forum those views are protected and can be expressed without fear of anyone using harsh or abusive language against the person expressing those views.

Also, I think we'll be given more room here to say, for example, that we think as a result of the childhood abuse scandal, the way the church governs itself needs to be reformed and that there should be more participation in church governance by non-clergy. If some believe that maybe the scriptures are not inerrant in their entirety but rather sacred impressions about God, and that God did not tell people to wipe out entire cities including the women and children, or that the historical Jesus who walked the earth is a bit different from the accounts in the bible and in tradition, people will be able to express those points of view, even though they obviously will not be held by every liberal or progressive here.

Someone from the Jesus seminar might qualify as a progressive Catholic, for example, though that isn't the only definition of progressive (They are just one sub-group within a wider sub-group):

Jesus Seminar - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

People also would be allowed to think God in different ways, as feminine, or as someone who doesn't threaten sinners with hellfire. I think we'd be allowed to be universalists if we wanted to. Or not. :)

But I think mainly from a Catholic perspective, we're talking about things like opposing unjust wars, opposing the death penalty, supporting social justice for the poor, universal health care, stewardship of the environment, and so on and so forth. More Oscar Cardinal Romero than Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger, you know? More Pope Francis than Pope John-Paul II. More Jesuit than Opus Dei. Not necessarily unorthodox theology, just a different emphasis than some Catholic forums. Stuff that is all official Catholic teaching.

Hopefully, for example, here I'd be able to argue vigorously that evolution is scientific fact and the creationism is unscientific and laughable in this day and age if I want to. If I want to do a good natured parody where I pretend to believe the earth is flat, which seems not to be allowed elsewhere, hopefully that's okay too. Creationism shouldn't be protected on a liberal sub-forum. If anything, evolution should be protected. And, as you are probably aware, Pope Francis has said publicly that "God is not a wizard" and seemed to endorse evolution as a Catholic idea, and every Pope beginning with Pius XII if not before said evolution is an acceptable view for Catholics. A Catholic priest came up with the Big Bang theory.

Also, I would hope ultimately that we are allowed to do what liberals do, which is be accepting of people, and welcome in Anglicans, Lutherans, and other liturgical progressive Christians who consider themselves Catholic to be considered full Catholics and members for the purpose of this forum.

What is going to be interesting here is what the site allows and what it doesn't. I would like more freedom to be ourselves here than site rules allow, but I think the forum specific rules allow more freedom than most other forum specific rules by design, even if they are't the type of thing that would be done on a progressive site (In the sense that the site rules that set the table are in some cases not what a progressive would write- for example, a progressive forum from scratch would likely allow "promoting homosexuality", whatever that means).

Conservatism is often about shoving ones views down everyone's throat. Hopefully people will let us be who we are here, but I have a feeling people will complain about this forum because, you know, it allows people to say things they disagree with, even though they could easily just not visit a sub-forum labeled "liberal" if liberal stuff offends them.

Conservatives are welcome here to post fellowship stuff, but they aren't allowed to come here and debate or insult progressives and call us heterodox or whatever. This is a specifically liberal sub-forum and a safe haven.

Someone doesn't have to progressive on everything to be progressive, though, of course.
 
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Rhamiel

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Hopefully, for example, here I'd be able to argue vigorously that evolution is scientific fact and the creationism is unscientific and laughable in this day and age if I want to.

you could
but you could do that in OBOB right?

and someone could be very liberal on political issues and argue that the earth was made in 7 days..... or would that go against the rules of this forum?
 
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Meowzltov

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Conservatism is often about shoving ones views down everyone's throat.
I find that personality trait not limited to conservatives. Pushy know it alls can be found in any group. Maybe you've just never run into someone who wants to shove women in the priesthood down your throat. I have.
 
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Rhamiel

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I find that personality trait not limited to conservatives. Pushy know it alls can be found in any group. Maybe you've just never run into someone who wants to shove women in the priesthood down your throat. I have.

that is kind of why I wanted to make this thread

I think it is important to define out terms

to see what is the philosophical basis of Liberal and Conservative

too often people on both sides boil it down to "people who think like me are A.... if you do not think like me, then you are B"
and they just use Liberal or Conservative for A or B based on their own preferences

so I was kind of hoping for a more.... nebulous definition rather then people bringing up stuff like Abortion or Welfare
more of like the theological/philosophical basis
 
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Fish and Bread

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you could
but you could do that in OBOB right?

I ran into some trouble with the moderators when I did that over on OBOB a while back. I think site-wide rules prevent me from discussing moderator action in any detail on a public thread, so I have to leave it at that. I only allude to it because I would assume that part of the reason for this space is that progressives would have a safer place to talk about subjects like evolution from the heart if they wanted to.

and someone could be very liberal on political issues and argue that the earth was made in 7 days..... or would that go against the rules of this forum?

I am not in charge, so I can't tell you the answer to that for certain, but my guess would be that someone would be able to say they believe the earth was created in 7 literal days, but that the presumption would be towards protecting the people who believe in the scientifically demonstrable fact of evolution on a liberal form if things got heated.

Despite all my recent posts here, I have no official standing and can only guess at the answers to those type of questions about how the forum is supposed to work, though. :) It's possible that things are somewhat in flux as we develop a stable group of people that form a community and naturally come to our own community norms and ideals, which may then in term influence the folks in charge.

that is kind of why I wanted to make this thread

I think it is important to define out terms

to see what is the philosophical basis of Liberal and Conservative

too often people on both sides boil it down to "people who think like me are A.... if you do not think like me, then you are B"
and they just use Liberal or Conservative for A or B based on their own preferences

so I was kind of hoping for a more.... nebulous definition rather then people bringing up stuff like Abortion or Welfare
more of like the theological/philosophical basis

Well, I already tried to answer the question long-form in details, so let me try short-form with less specifics and see if that makes it any clearer...

Liberals tend to feel we're all in this together and that most differences should be celebrated and embraced, that diversity makes us stronger, and that the maximum number of people possible should be included and given a wide margin for error in life and in faith, and treated equally with maximum respect for their humans rights. And that no one should be left behind. Liberals tend to focus on the love of God rather than the wrath of God, and feel that caring for the least among us, collectively and individually, is more important than what people do or don't do when it comes to things like sexual morality and whatnot. Often there is an emphasis on peace, an embrace of science, and a concern for the environment and our collective stewardship of it. The progressive aspect of liberalism is that many feel that we should move towards better ethical norms moving forward and can grow and change on some things rather than being stuck in the past.

Conservatives I think tend to feel like it's everyone for themselves to some degree, and will draw sharp lines around a lot of things that they believe should exclude people from being part of a given church or group, which in practice would result in a smaller, but in their view more faithful, church. They tend to focus more on a wrathful God and the importance of avoiding sin in a theological context, and have a long list of sins. They tend to have very restrictive sexual mores. Conservatives are also more likely to feel that things are locked in stone- like saying all encyclicals, even really old ones, express doctrine must be followed and can't be changed, even if it leads them to have to make excuses for things like crusades and inquisitions at times. They also value conformity.

Obviously, those don't apply to everyone. I'm trying not to get myself in trouble with people by sort of "telling them what they think", but the nature of the question is such that it's kind of hard not to characterize people. :)

Maybe that is one of the differences, too, that conservatives are more likely to need exact definitions and see things in black and white, whereas liberals tend to be more vague and see shades of gray. Maybe. Sometimes. Sort of. :)

Hopefully that helps and isn't just more confusing. :)
 
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mark46

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Liberalism at it's core is about inclusion and giving people wider latitude to be themselves free from discrimination or judgement. In a political sense, that may mean supporting a strong social safety net for the poor and those who may one day be poor, defending the human and civil rights of all people and especially minorities who's rights are more frequently violated, and so on and so forth.

In a theological sense it may involve supporting some or all of those political initiatives, but it also means being sticking up for the little guy (or gal) when it comes to religious matters, protecting human rights, and trying to include as many points of view as possible. My inclination would be to say that if you want a forum where everyone insists that homosexuality and abortion are the only two issues and that hating on homosexuals trumps people getting health care they need to survive or making sure the elderly and disabled get a monthly check so they can live lives of dignity and choice, then this may not be a place you'll enjoy. I don't think we're going to wind up having "litmus test" type issues, but at the same time the liberal in the name does lend the impression that we'll be leaning towards a certain mode of thought, though individual posters may not lean entirely that way and can still be liberal or progressive. I think the idea of the forum is to allow people to say what is in their hearts, particularly stuff from a liberal or progressive perspective.

In real life, progressives also sometimes favor things like married clergy, female clergy, homosexual clergy, gay marriage, and so on and so forth. The rules of the site limit what we can say about homosexuality, and not every progressive is going to support female clergy or married clergy or whatever. *However*, in this forum those views are protected and can be expressed without fear of anyone using harsh or abusive language against the person expressing those views.

Also, I think we'll be given more room here to say, for example, that we think as a result of the childhood abuse scandal, the way the church governs itself needs to be reformed and that there should be more participation in church governance by non-clergy. If some believe that maybe the scriptures are not inerrant in their entirety but rather sacred impressions about God, and that God did not tell people to wipe out entire cities including the women and children, or that the historical Jesus who walked the earth is a bit different from the accounts in the bible and in tradition, people will be able to express those points of view, even though they obviously will not be held by every liberal or progressive here.

Someone from the Jesus seminar might qualify as a progressive Catholic, for example, though that isn't the only definition of progressive (They are just one sub-group within a wider sub-group):

Jesus Seminar - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

People also would be allowed to think God in different ways, as feminine, or as someone who doesn't threaten sinners with hellfire. I think we'd be allowed to be universalists if we wanted to. Or not. :)

But I think mainly from a Catholic perspective, we're talking about things like opposing unjust wars, opposing the death penalty, supporting social justice for the poor, universal health care, stewardship of the environment, and so on and so forth. More Oscar Cardinal Romero than Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger, you know? More Pope Francis than Pope John-Paul II. More Jesuit than Opus Dei. Not necessarily unorthodox theology, just a different emphasis than some Catholic forums. Stuff that is all official Catholic teaching.

Hopefully, for example, here I'd be able to argue vigorously that evolution is scientific fact and the creationism is unscientific and laughable in this day and age if I want to. If I want to do a good natured parody where I pretend to believe the earth is flat, which seems not to be allowed elsewhere, hopefully that's okay too. Creationism shouldn't be protected on a liberal sub-forum. If anything, evolution should be protected. And, as you are probably aware, Pope Francis has said publicly that "God is not a wizard" and seemed to endorse evolution as a Catholic idea, and every Pope beginning with Pius XII if not before said evolution is an acceptable view for Catholics. A Catholic priest came up with the Big Bang theory.

Also, I would hope ultimately that we are allowed to do what liberals do, which is be accepting of people, and welcome in Anglicans, Lutherans, and other liturgical progressive Christians who consider themselves Catholic to be considered full Catholics and members for the purpose of this forum.

What is going to be interesting here is what the site allows and what it doesn't. I would like more freedom to be ourselves here than site rules allow, but I think the forum specific rules allow more freedom than most other forum specific rules by design, even if they are't the type of thing that would be done on a progressive site (In the sense that the site rules that set the table are in some cases not what a progressive would write- for example, a progressive forum from scratch would likely allow "promoting homosexuality", whatever that means).

Conservatism is often about shoving ones views down everyone's throat. Hopefully people will let us be who we are here, but I have a feeling people will complain about this forum because, you know, it allows people to say things they disagree with, even though they could easily just not visit a sub-forum labeled "liberal" if liberal stuff offends them.

Conservatives are welcome here to post fellowship stuff, but they aren't allowed to come here and debate or insult progressives and call us heterodox or whatever. This is a specifically liberal sub-forum and a safe haven.

Someone doesn't have to progressive on everything to be progressive, though, of course.

POLITICS
I'm agree with almost all you say about political liberals and progressives. I think it interesting that you changed from using one to the other. Progressive is a term being used again in American politics, meaning to the left of Obama. I'm not quite as down on conservatives as you are. Perhaps after almost 60 years of following politics, I have seen many conservatives that don't "show ideas down your throat". The religious right is NOT conservative; they are radical right wingers.

THEOLOGY
With regard to theology, I guess there are really two vectors: liberal vs conservative, and unorthodox vs unorthodox.

Liberals might want all kinds of changes to man-made rules, might like modern music, might even want female clergy (even if most conservatives consider this unorthodox). Liberals certainly celebrate having non-Italian popes, and a Jesuit pope who has been the bishop of the Eastern Church. Conservatives are resistant to change and consider the Tradition of the Church to be rather more important than liberals do. IMHO, a respect for Tradition shouldn't be negative to a Catholic.

And yes, it should be obvious that a respect for science is assumed here.
=============================
But, for me, there is the vector of orthodoxy and unorthodoxy. For me, the Jesus seminar is NOT liberal, although some would call it such, It is certainly not in any way "progressive".

So here we differ. The Jesus Seminar in many ways rejects the orthodox faith of the Creeds of the Church. The examples you gave regarding the Jesus Seminar have to with orthodoxy. These matters are not about liberal and conservative. Universalism is unorthodox. The idea that God does not punish is not orthodox. God having a feminine nature is not orthodox. Considering the bible as "sacred impressions about God" is not orthodox. The suggestion that Jesus is in some way not the Jesus depicted in the bible is not orthodox. In general, CF starts with defining the orthodox faith which is assumed on all Christian fellowship board. I haven't a clue what they will do with the regard to some of the discussions tha you imply we should have.

To be clear, there is an enormous of area that we can discuss without being in strict violation of the orthodoxy requirements. The bible is a very good example. There is wide spectrum of understanding of Scripture within the confines of orthodox Christianity. We should certainly be able to discuss the subject. As long as we are clear about what the Church teaches, I suspect that we will be fine.

God IS Father, Son and Holy Spirit. To suggest otherwise is probably a quick route to the board that discusses such beliefs. I suppose we can discuss what is wrong with baptizing in the name of the Creator, Redeemer and Sustainer. I doubt that such a discussion would last very long.
=======
CONCLUSION - I AM JUST GUESSING
My suggestion is that we start with lots and lots of obvious stuff, as we have. For example, I will be more than happy to discuss how we interpret Scripture at whatever length you would wish. There are limits. I doubt very much that liberal Catholics will be the ones with the objections.
 
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mark46

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I find that personality trait not limited to conservatives. Pushy know it alls can be found in any group. Maybe you've just never run into someone who wants to shove women in the priesthood down your throat. I have.

I agree. There are many close minded liberals in this world.
 
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mark46

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you could
but you could do that in OBOB right?

and someone could be very liberal on political issues and argue that the earth was made in 7 days..... or would that go against the rules of this forum?

See the purpose from the rules setting up the forum

"discuss theology, beliefs and issues from a primarily liberal or left-wing point of view"

I suppose one could make the argument of why a liberal should believe that the world was created in seven 24 hour days, However, I think that it would be a huge stretch. I think that this view is decidedly NOT theologically liberal or left wing. So, yes, I would think it out of order to discuss whether the world was created in seven days. As in any other forum, one might ask what liberal Catholics believe about this. I don't think that this view or acceptance of evolution would be a proper subject of discussion here.

Similarly it is not a liberal Catholic view that every word of Scripture is true in all that it says. Personally, I don't think this should be acceptable on OBOB; such a view would certainly not be the liberal view.
========================
I don't think that we will have much trouble for awhile. However, I could see a time when "conservatives" decide to come here and argue against generally held liberal theological views, in violation of our rules.
=========
JUST A NOTE
IMHO, this type of issue will come up less here because there is a very wide spectrum of views held by liberal Catholics.
 
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Fantine

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We are all feeling our way. See the purpose from the rules setting up the forum

"discuss theology, beliefs and issues from a primarily liberal or left-wing point of view"

I suppose one could make the argument of why a liberal should believe that the world was created in seven 24 hour days, However, I think that it would be a huge stretch. I think that this view is decidedly NOT theologically liberal or left wing. So, yes, I would think it out of order to discuss whether the world was created in seven days. As in any other forum, one might ask what liberal Catholics believe about this. I don't think that this view or acceptance of evolution would be a proper subject of discussion here.

Similarly it is not a liberal Catholic view that every word of Scripture is true in all that it says. Personally, I don't think this should be acceptable on OBOB; such a view would certainly not be the liberal view.
========================
I don't think that we will have much trouble for awhile. However, I could see a time when "conservatives" decide to come here and argue against generally held liberal theological views, in violation of our rules.
=========
JUST A NOTE
IMHO, this type of issue will come up less here because there is a very wide spectrum of views held by liberal Catholics.

I see the main difference between liberal and conservative Catholics as being the way they view the Church.

I think conservative Catholics look at the Church to manage and direct their relationships with God.

I think liberal Catholics look first at their relationships with God and use the Church as a resource to facilitate them.

Sort of like conservative Catholics being lifetime employees following all the rules waiting for the gold watch at the end of their employment. And liberal Catholics being consultants, interacting with the Church but being more self-directed.
 
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Meowzltov

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Sorry, but I really do have to reject some of the notions I've read here. Nothing personal. I come back to my core notion that it has to do with change (liberal) verses stability (conservative). Both have their virtues. But both have their dark side as well. Change for its own sake can bring chaos. Lack of change when it is needed can bring stagnation. We really need BOTH liberals and conservatives to reach the right balance.

Let's look at the issue of the place of women in the church. It has arisen in our age in a way that it has never arisen before. You have liberals clanging for women in the priesthood and you have conservatives yelling 'The church has spoken and she has said no." Neither side is going to win, or rather both will. If you look at church history, you find that when any issue arises, it takes hundreds of years to be sorted out, and the solution is usually something unanticipated. So 1. we won't see the answer in our day (meaning the church has NOT finished speaking) and 2. the answer won't be anything like what we have imagined so far (so it will not be today's status quo, and it will not be female priests, but women will somehow have unprecedented power). It will take the blend of both liberals and conservatives to reach this new understanding.

BTW, having said that, am I a liberal or a conservative? LOL
 
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mark46

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I see the main difference between liberal and conservative Catholics as being the way they view the Church.

I think conservative Catholics look at the Church to manage and direct their relationships with God.

I think liberal Catholics look first at their relationships with God and use the Church as a resource to facilitate them.

Do we, as liberal Catholics, view the division in this way. I think that this analysis has a lot of merit.
 
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Fantine

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Weighing in with Richard Rohr, OFM's view of "conservative Catholics."

Both Jesus and Francis did not let the old get in the way of the new, but like all religious geniuses, revealed what the old was saying all along. I find much wisdom in what the contemporary faith seeker Christian Wiman writes: "Faith itself sometimes needs to be stripped of its social and historical encrustations and returned to its first, churchless incarnation in the human heart."

Precisely because both Jesus and Francis were "conservatives" in the true sense of the term, they conserved what was worth conserving--the core, the transformative life of the Gospel--and did not let accidentals get in the way, which are the very things false conservatives usually idolize. They then ended up looking quite "progressive," radical, and even dangerous to the status quo. This is, of course, the constant and consistent biblical pattern, from Abraham to Moses to Jeremiah to Job to John the Baptist to Mary and Joseph. With courage and wisdom, great seers invariably end up saying something like Jesus did: "The Law says, and I also say. . . ." (Matthew 5:20-48)...

We're conservative, y'all! Who would've thunk it?

http://myemail.constantcontact.com/...-Core.html?soid=1103098668616&aid=Yzcj4MRV_HE
 
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LivingWordUnity

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Let's sum it up this way: I don't profess anything contrary to the magisterium, but I have an incredible amount of questions, and I see conservatives as people who don't ask questions.
Relativism has its own set of dogmas which are not allowed to be questioned.
 
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RileyG

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I knew a woman in the RCC who self-identified as a "liberal Catholic". She would often say she felt greatly "ashamed" of her Church for not supporting same-sex marriage, or planned parenthood/abortion etc.
 
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Meowzltov

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I knew a woman in the RCC who self-identified as a "liberal Catholic". She would often say she felt greatly "ashamed" of her Church for not supporting same-sex marriage, or planned parenthood/abortion etc.
Ugh. Makes you wonder why she stayed a Catholic if she felt that way.
 
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RileyG

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Ugh. Makes you wonder why she stayed a Catholic if she felt that way.
I don't know. She seems more like an Episcopalian. I lost touch with her.
 
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