LGBT group proposes dissolving UMC into 4 new denominations.

redleghunter

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I guess I don't see why this follows. When the traditionalists left The Episcopal Church, the courts ruled that the TEC's rules stated that the ownership of local property went to the national church, so the exiles simply had forfeited it.

I cannot imagine why the UMC situation would vary from that because of some vague claims being concocted about victimhood, etc. Not when the courts refused to get into such stuff in the Episcopal case, saying that the values and beliefs approach was beyond them, but the specific rules that are in writing concerning who owns what were not.
I gather from your comments, as long as the Traditionalists have the majority of votes they can't be sued to distribute? I'm not an expert on UMC government but get a feeling even if the General Assembly votes Traditional again, the council of bishops could move otherwise?
 
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Albion

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I gather from your comments, as long as the Traditionalists have the majority of votes they can't be sued to distribute? I'm not an expert on UMC government but get a feeling even if the General Assembly votes Traditional again, the council of bishops could move otherwise?
Well, I don't have enough familiarity with the UMC Constitution, etc. to sayfor sure about that. Maybe the bishops could impose their will, but that's not a dissident group within the church.

This is a denomination that is centralized, unlike the Baptists or Churches of Christ, for example. IF the UMC Constitution, which makes its bishops pretty powerful, has some regulation vesting all property in the national church or a bishops' council, I don't see how a lawsuit by a minority that gets outvoted in General Assembly has much of a leg to stand on. And I was reminded, as I said, of the history of a lot of lawsuits that The Episcopal Church went through.
 
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rockytopva

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My Pentecostal Holiness preacher was taught to believe that we were all What you would call traditional Methodist. And to let George Clark Rankin describe that church....

A good dinner refreshed me and I soon unfolded my plans and they were satisfactory to my kind-hearted kinsman. He was in the midst of cotton-picking and that afternoon I went to the field and, with a long sack about my waist, had my first experience in the cottonfield. We then would get ready for the revival occurring that night…

After the team had been fed and we had been to supper we put the mules to the wagon, filled it with chairs and we were off to the meeting. When we reached the locality it was about dark and the people were assembling. Their horses and wagons filled up the cleared spaces and the singing was already in progress. My uncle and his family went well up toward the front, but I dropped into a seat well to the rear. It was an old-fashioned Church, ancient in appearance, oblong in shape and unpretentious. It was situated in a grove about one hundred yards from the road. It was lighted with old tallow-dip candles furnished by the neighbors. It was not a prepossessing-looking place, but it was soon crowded and evidently there was a great deal of interest. A cadaverous-looking man stood up in front with a tuning fork and raised and led the songs. There were a few prayers and the minister came in with his saddlebags and entered the pulpit. He was the Rev. W. H. Heath, the circuit rider. His prayer impressed me with his earnestness and there were many amens to it in the audience. I do not remember his text, but it was a typical revival sermon, full of unction and power.

At its close he invited penitents to the altar and a great many young people flocked to it and bowed for prayer. Many of them became very much affected and they cried out distressingly for mercy. It had a strange effect on me. It made me nervous and I wanted to retire. Directly my uncle came back to me, put his arm around my shoulder and asked me if I did not want to be religious. I told him that I had always had that desire, that mother had brought me up that way, and really I did not know anything else. Then he wanted to know if I had ever professed religion. I hardly understood what he meant and did not answer him. He changed his question and asked me if I had ever been to the altar for prayer, and I answered him in the negative. Then he earnestly besought me to let him take me up to the altar and join the others in being prayed for. It really embarrassed me and I hardly knew what to say to him. He spoke to me of my mother and said that when she was a little girl she went to the altar and that Christ accepted her and she had been a good Christian all these years. That touched me in a tender spot, for mother always did do what was right; and then I was far away from her and wanted to see her. Oh, if she were there to tell me what to do!

By and by I yielded to his entreaty and he led forward to the altar. The minister took me by the hand and spoke tenderly to me as I knelt at the altar. I had gone more out of sympathy than conviction, and I did not know what to do after I bowed there. The others were praying aloud and now and then one would rise shoutingly happy and make the old building ring with his glad praise. It was a novel experience to me. I did not know what to pray for, neither did I know what to expect if I did pray. I spent the most of the hour wondering why I was there and what it all meant. No one explained anything to me. Once in awhile some good old brother or sister would pass my way, strike me on the back and tell me to look up and believe and the blessing would come. But that was not encouraging to me. In fact, it sounded like nonsense and the noise was distracting me. Even in my crude way of thinking I had an idea that religion was a sensible thing and that people ought to become religious intelligently and without all that hurrah. I presume that my ideas were the result of the Presbyterian training given to me by old grandfather. By and by my knees grew tired and the skin was nearly rubbed off my elbows. I thought the service never would close, and when it did conclude with the benediction I heaved a sigh of relief. That was my first experience at the mourner's bench.

As we drove home I did not have much to say, but I listened attentively to the conversation between my uncle and his wife. They were greatly impressed with the meeting, and they spoke first of this one and that one who had "come through" and what a change it would make in the community, as many of them were bad boys. As we were putting up the team my uncle spoke very encouragingly to me; he was delighted with the step I had taken and he pleaded with me not to turn back, but to press on until I found the pearl of great price. He knew my mother would be very happy over the start I had made. Before going to sleep I fell into a train of thought, though I was tired and exhausted. I wondered why I had gone to that altar and what I had gained by it. I felt no special conviction and had received no special impression, but then if my mother had started that way there must be something in it, for she always did what was right. I silently lifted my heart to God in prayer for conviction and guidance. I knew how to pray, for I had come up through prayer, but not the mourner's bench sort. So I determined to continue to attend the meeting and keep on going to the altar until I got religion.

Early the next morning I was up and in a serious frame of mind. I went with the other hands to the cottonfield and at noon I slipped off in the barn and prayed. But the more I thought of the way those young people were moved in the meeting and with what glad hearts they had shouted their praises to God the more it puzzled and confused me. I could not feel the conviction that they had and my heart did not feel melted and tender. I was callous and unmoved in feeling and my distress on account of sin was nothing like theirs. I did not understand my own state of mind and heart. It troubled me, for by this time I really wanted to have an experience like theirs.

When evening came I was ready for Church service and was glad to go. It required no urging. Another large crowd was present and the preacher was as earnest as ever. I did not give much heed to the sermon. In fact, I do not recall a word of it. I was anxious for him to conclude and give me a chance to go to the altar. I had gotten it into my head that there was some real virtue in the mourner's bench; and when the time came I was one of the first to prostrate myself before the altar in prayer. Many others did likewise. Two or three good people at intervals knelt by me and spoke encouragingly to me, but they did not help me. Their talks were mere exhortations to earnestness and faith, but there was no explanation of faith, neither was there any light thrown upon my mind and heart. I wrought myself up into tears and cries for help, but the whole situation was dark and I hardly knew why I cried, or what was the trouble with me. Now and then others would arise from the altar in an ecstasy of joy, but there was no joy for me. When the service closed I was discouraged and felt that maybe I was too hardhearted and the good Spirit could do nothing for me.

After we went home I tossed on the bed before going to sleep and wondered why God did not do for me what he had done for mother and what he was doing in that meeting for those young people at the altar. I could not understand it. But I resolved to keep on trying, and so dropped off to sleep. The next day I had about the same experience and at night saw no change in my condition. And so for several nights I repeated the same distressing experience. The meeting took on such interest that a day service was adopted along with the night exercises, and we attended that also. And one morning while I bowed at the altar in a very disturbed state of mind Brother Tyson, a good local preacher and the father of Rev. J. F. Tyson, now of the Central Conference, sat down by me and, putting his hand on my shoulder, said to me: "Now I want you to sit up awhile and let's talk this matter over quietly. I am sure that you are in earnest, for you have been coming to this altar night after night for several days. I want to ask you a few simple questions." And the following questions were asked and answered:

"My son, do you not love God?"

"I cannot remember when I did not love him."

"Do you believe on his Son, Jesus Christ?"

"I have always believed on Christ. My mother taught me that from my earliest recollection."

"Do you accept him as your Savior?"

"I certainly do, and have always done so."

"Can you think of any sin that is between you and the Savior?"

"No, sir; for I have never committed any bad sins."

"Do you love everybody?"

"Well, I love nearly everybody, but I have no ill-will toward any one. An old man did me a wrong not long ago and I acted ugly toward him, but I do not care to injure him."

"Can you forgive him?"

"Yes, if he wanted me to."

"But, down in your heart, can you wish him well?"

"Yes, sir; I can do that."

"Well, now let me say to you that if you love God, if you accept Jesus Christ as your Savior from sin and if you love your fellowmen and intend by God's help to lead a religious life, that's all there is to religion. In fact, that is all I know about it."

Then he repeated several passages of Scriptures to me proving his assertions. I thought a moment and said to him: "But I do not feel like these young people who have been getting religion night after night. I cannot get happy like them. I do not feel like shouting."

The good man looked at me and smiled and said: "Ah, that's your trouble. You have been trying to feel like them. Now you are not them; you are yourself. You have your own quiet disposition and you are not turned like them. They are excitable and blustery like they are. They give way to their feelings. That's all right, but feeling is not religion. Religion is faith and life. If you have violent feeling with it, all good and well, but if you have faith and not much feeling, why the feeling will take care of itself. To love God and accept Jesus Christ as your Savior, turning away from all sin, and living a godly life, is the substance of true religion."

That was new to me, yet it had been my state of mind from childhood. For I remembered that away back in my early life, when the old preacher held services in my grandmother's house one day and opened the door of the Church, I went forward and gave him my hand. He was to receive me into full membership at the end of six months' probation, but he let it pass out of his mind and failed to attend to it.

As I sat there that morning listening to the earnest exhortation of the good man my tears ceased, my distress left me, light broke in upon my mind, my heart grew joyous, and before I knew just what I was doing I was going all around shaking hands with everybody, and my confusion and darkness disappeared and a great burden rolled off my spirit. I felt exactly like I did when I was a little boy around my mother's knee when she told of Jesus and God and Heaven. It made my heart thrill then, and the same old experience returned to me in that old country Church that beautiful September morning down in old North Georgia.

I at once gave my name to the preacher for membership in the Church, and the following Sunday morning, along with many others, he received me into full membership in the Methodist Episcopal Church, South. It was one of the most delightful days in my recollection. It was the third Sunday in September, 1866, and those Church vows became a living principle in my heart and life. During these forty-five long years, with their alternations of sunshine and shadow, daylight and darkness, success and failure, rejoicing and weeping, fears within and fightings without, I have never ceased to thank God for that autumnal day in the long ago when my name was registered in the Lamb's Book of Life.
 
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rockytopva

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My Pentecostal Holiness preacher was taught to believe that we were all What you would call traditional Methodist. And to let George Clark Rankin describe those camp meetings and revivals ....

I passed my examinations and that year I was sent to the Wytheville Station and Circuit. That was adjoining my former charge. We reached the old parsonage on the pike just out of Wytheville as Rev. B. W. S. Bishop moved out. Charley Bishop was then a little tow-headed boy. He is now the learned Regent of Southwestern University. The parsonage was an old two-and-a-half-story structure with nine rooms and it looked a little like Hawthorne's house with the seven gables. It was the lonesomest-looking old house I ever saw. There was no one there to meet us, for we had not notified anybody of the time we would arrive.

Think of taking a young bride to that sort of a mansion! But she was brave and showed no sign of disappointment. That first night we felt like two whortleberries in a Virginia tobacco wagonbed. We had room and to spare, but it was scantily furnished with specimens as antique as those in Noah's ark. But in a week or so we were invited out to spend the day with a good family, and when we went back we found the doors fastened just as we had left them, but when we entered a bedroom was elegantly furnished with everything modern and the parlor was in fine shape. The ladies had been there and done the work. How much does the preacher owe to the good women of the Church!

The circuit was a large one, comprising seventeen appointments. They were practically scattered all over the county. I preached every other day, and never less than twice and generally three times on Sunday.

I had associated with me that year a young collegemate, Rev. W. B. Stradley. He was a bright, popular fellow, and we managed to give Wytheville regular Sunday preaching. Stradley became a great preacher and died a few years ago while pastor of Trinity Church, Atlanta, Georgia. We were true yokefellows and did a great work on that charge, held fine revivals and had large ingatherings.

The famous Cripple Creek Campground was on that work. They have kept up campmeetings there for more than a hundred years. It is still the great rallying point for the Methodists of all that section. I have never heard such singing and preaching and shouting anywhere else in my life. I met the Rev. John Boring there and heard him preach. He was a well-known preacher in the conference; original, peculiar, strikingly odd, but a great revival preacher.

One morning in the beginning of the service he was to preach and he called the people to prayer. He prayed loud and long and told the Lord just what sort of a meeting we were expecting and really exhorted the people as to their conduct on the grounds. Among other things, he said we wanted no horse- trading and then related that just before kneeling he had seen a man just outside the encampment looking into the mouth of a horse and he made such a peculiar sound as he described the incident that I lifted up my head to look at him, and he was holding his mouth open with his hands just as the man had done in looking into the horse's mouth! But he was a man of power and wrought well for the Church and for humanity.

The rarest character I ever met in my life I met at that campmeeting in the person of Rev. Robert Sheffy, known as "Bob" Sheffy. He was recognized all over Southwest Virginia as the most eccentric preacher of that country. He was a local preacher; crude, illiterate, queer and the oddest specimen known among preachers. But he was saintly in his life, devout in his experience and a man of unbounded faith. He wandered hither and thither over that section attending meetings, holding revivals and living among the people. He was great in prayer, and Cripple Creek campground was not complete without "Bob" Sheffy. They wanted him there to pray and work in the altar.

He was wonderful with penitents. And he was great in following up the sermon with his exhortations and appeals. He would sometimes spend nearly the whole night in the straw with mourners; and now and then if the meeting lagged he would go out on the mountain and spend the entire night in prayer, and the next morning he would come rushing into the service with his face all aglow shouting at the top of his voice. And then the meeting always broke loose with a floodtide.

He could say the oddest things, hold the most unique interviews with God, break forth in the most unexpected spasms of praise, use the homeliest illustrations, do the funniest things and go through with the most grotesque performances of any man born of woman.

It was just "Bob" Sheffy, and nobody thought anything of what he did and said, except to let him have his own way and do exactly as he pleased. In anybody else it would not have been tolerated for a moment. In fact, he acted more like a crazy man than otherwise, but he was wonderful in a meeting. He would stir the people, crowd the mourner's bench with crying penitents and have genuine conversions by the score. I doubt if any man in all that conference has as many souls to his credit in the Lamb's Book of Life as old "Bob" Sheffy.

At the close of that year in casting up my accounts I found that I had received three hundred and ninety dollars for my year's work, and the most of this had been contributed in everything except money. It required about the amount of cash contributed to pay my associate and the Presiding Elder. I got the chickens, the eggs, the butter, the ribs and backbones, the corn, the meat, and the Presiding Elder and Brother Stradley had helped us to eat our part of the quarterage. Well, we kept open house and had a royal time, even if we did not get much ready cash. We lived and had money enough to get a good suit of clothes and to pay our way to conference. What more does a young Methodist preacher need or want? We were satisfied and happy, and these experiences are not to be counted as unimportant assets in the life and work of a Methodist circuit rider.
 
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Silverback

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The theologically progressive UM-Forward submitted a proposal known as the New Expressions Worldwide Plan, which if implemented would create four different Methodist denominations: a “Traditionalist Methodist Church,” a “Moderate Methodist Church,” a “Progressive Methodist Church,” and a “Liberation Methodist Church.”

Thoughts?

I thought the UMC had already had several splits?
 
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Redwingfan9

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The theologically progressive UM-Forward submitted a proposal known as the New Expressions Worldwide Plan, which if implemented would create four different Methodist denominations: a “Traditionalist Methodist Church,” a “Moderate Methodist Church,” a “Progressive Methodist Church,” and a “Liberation Methodist Church.”

Thoughts?
Methodism has always been a theological disaster. I can't say I'm surprised that it's ended up like this. They long ago abandoned Biblical Christianity, ordaining women and celebrating that which is unseemly. Breaking up will appease the Christ haters on the left but it really doesn't matter in the long run. Even the conservative churches really aren't all that conservative.
 
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seeking.IAM

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I understand why the UMC finds the LGBT-Q issue too divisive and might split over it, but I fail to understand why traditionalist, moderate, & liberation theology folks can't stay in fellowship with worship with each other? It has me stymied. I'm grateful to be part of a church where disagreement with each other is both expected and tolerated. It's really not that hard.
 
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PaulCyp1

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And on and on and on it goes, the history of Protestantism, which is continuous fragmentation into more and more conflicting denominations teaching more and more false beliefs. Exactly the opposite of the plainly stated will of Jesus Christ concerning His followers, which was and still is "that they all may be ONE, even as I and my heavenly Father are ONE". Sad.
 
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salt-n-light

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The theologically progressive UM-Forward submitted a proposal known as the New Expressions Worldwide Plan, which if implemented would create four different Methodist denominations: a “Traditionalist Methodist Church,” a “Moderate Methodist Church,” a “Progressive Methodist Church,” and a “Liberation Methodist Church.”

Thoughts?

I think we already have his explanation.....'I'm coming for your guns' and 'Churches that don't support LGBQTXYZ will lose their tax exempt status'......

Im sure as HECK know that if anyone even tries to take away tax exempt status from churches, alot of organizations will sink with it.
 
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salt-n-light

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And on and on and on it goes, the history of Protestantism, which is continuous fragmentation into more and more conflicting denominations teaching more and more false beliefs. Exactly the opposite of the plainly stated will of Jesus Christ concerning His followers, which was and still is "that they all may be ONE, even as I and my heavenly Father are ONE". Sad.

Doesn't the Catholics have their own version of this already?
STOP. TRYING. TO. ONE. UP. YOUR. OWN. BROTHERS. AND. SISTERS.IN. CHRIST.
 
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Aussie Pete

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The theologically progressive UM-Forward submitted a proposal known as the New Expressions Worldwide Plan, which if implemented would create four different Methodist denominations: a “Traditionalist Methodist Church,” a “Moderate Methodist Church,” a “Progressive Methodist Church,” and a “Liberation Methodist Church.”

Thoughts?
Wonderful. Just what the world needs to see. A compromised, worldly, spiritually dead excuse for Christianity that neither glorifies Christ or benefits unbelievers. John Wesley would not recognise the Methodists, not that he ever wanted to form an new denomination. There won't be too many "well done, good and faithful servants" if this monstrosity gets up.
 
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AlexDTX

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The theologically progressive UM-Forward submitted a proposal known as the New Expressions Worldwide Plan, which if implemented would create four different Methodist denominations: a “Traditionalist Methodist Church,” a “Moderate Methodist Church,” a “Progressive Methodist Church,” and a “Liberation Methodist Church.”

Thoughts?
Ichabod.
 
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Martyr's Crown

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I don't have time reading all of the responses now, but it is clear to see; How many churches who started with a good purpose of foundation, rooted in their Lord Jesus Christ, with a desire of reaching out to the lost masses... have now begun going more toward what pleases the world.

It is more about how they can fish people with becoming more hip and fitting more into what people like to have, and not so much about staying faithful to the Word of God, and keeping the church --> The Bride of Christ; Chaste and Blameless.
 
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PloverWing

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Wonderful. Just what the world needs to see. A compromised, worldly, spiritually dead excuse for Christianity that neither glorifies Christ or benefits unbelievers.

I don't think this is a fair assessment of the United Methodists. What I see in the document is an acknowledgement that Methodists have strong passions to follow Christ, but in different directions. Some are passionate about evangelism. Some are passionate about caring for the poor. Some are passionate about compassion and justice for members of marginalized groups. I may disagree with them about whether schism is necessary to carry out these varying missions successfully, but I'm not seeing apathy here. I'm seeing people strongly committed to living the gospel, just in disagreement about what that looks like in practice.
 
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hedrick

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I understand why the UMC finds the LGBT-Q issue too divisive and might split over it, but I fail to understand why traditionalist, moderate, & liberation theology folks can't stay in fellowship with worship with each other? It has me stymied. I'm grateful to be part of a church where disagreement with each other is both expected and tolerated. It's really not that hard.
The reason this won't work is that traditionalists are unwilling to be in a church where anyone, anywhere ordains or marries gays. There are a number of proposals. The one in the thread title is only one. Most assume (correctly, I think) that everyone except the traditionalists can coexist in the same denomination.
 
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hedrick

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Well, I don't have enough familiarity with the UMC Constitution, etc. to sayfor sure about that. Maybe the bishops could impose their will, but that's not a dissident group within the church.

This is a denomination that is centralized, unlike the Baptists or Churches of Christ, for example. IF the UMC Constitution, which makes its bishops pretty powerful, has some regulation vesting all property in the national church or a bishops' council, I don't see how a lawsuit by a minority that gets outvoted in General Assembly has much of a leg to stand on. And I was reminded, as I said, of the history of a lot of lawsuits that The Episcopal Church went through.
First, the bishops don't have all that much power.

Second, I believe that if it comes to legal fights, property is held by the Annual Conferences. In the US 3/4 of them are liberal or moderate. By moderate I mean that while they may not want to do gay marriages in their churches, they're willing to coexist with those who do. The General Conference is very slightly traditionalist, largely because of votes from Africa.

My reading of the situation is that none of the plans are going to pass, but that de facto the US is simply going to start ignoring the rules against gays. The few really committed traditionalists in the US will withdraw, as in fact they've already started doing. The beginning is visible in the West, where they have a gay bishop, and are simply ignoring attempts to stop them.
 
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hedrick

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One of the reasons splitting into lots of denominations doesn't make sense is that most churches have a mix of people. Also, they change over time. Having to pick among several slightly different denominations would cause problems for most congregations.

Churches can pursue different ministries while remaining in the same denomination. As long as the denomination doesn't have a rule prohibiting it. Basically if you removed one sentence from the Discipline, everyone except traditionalists could work together.
 
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Albion

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The reason this won't work is that traditionalists are unwilling to be in a church where anyone, anywhere ordains or marries gays. There are a number of proposals. The one in the thread title is only one. Most assume (correctly, I think) that everyone except the traditionalists can coexist in the same denomination.
That is the theory. However, once the liberals have sufficient control, regardless of how that would come about, the tolerance you are referring to vanishes.

That has been the experience with other of the mainline denominations and I see no reason to think that the UMC would be immune to it, especially since authority is not vested in the local congregation among Methodists.
 
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