• Welcome to Christian Forums
  1. Welcome to Christian Forums, a forum to discuss Christianity in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

  2. The forums in the Christian Congregations category are now open only to Christian members. Please review our current Faith Groups list for information on which faith groups are considered to be Christian faiths. Christian members please remember to read the Statement of Purpose threads for each forum within Christian Congregations before posting in the forum.
  3. Please note there is a new rule regarding the posting of videos. It reads, "Post a summary of the videos you post . An exception can be made for music videos.". Unless you are simply sharing music, please post a summary, or the gist, of the video you wish to share.
  4. There have been some changes in the Life Stages section involving the following forums: Roaring 20s, Terrific Thirties, Fabulous Forties, and Golden Eagles. They are changed to Gen Z, Millennials, Gen X, and Golden Eagles will have a slight change.
  5. CF Staff, Angels and Ambassadors; ask that you join us in praying for the world in this difficult time, asking our Holy Father to stop the spread of the virus, and for healing of all affected.

Levels of EvC belief

Discussion in 'Creation & Evolution' started by Strathos, Apr 15, 2018.

  1. 1

    47.3%
  2. 2

    1.8%
  3. 3

    14.5%
  4. 4

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  5. 5

    12.7%
  6. 6

    5.5%
  7. 7

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  8. 8

    3.6%
  9. 9

    9.1%
  10. 10

    5.5%
  1. Shemjaza

    Shemjaza Regular Member Supporter

    +2,001
    Australia
    Atheist
    Single
    AU-Greens
    Can you expand on that?
     
  2. Ophiolite

    Ophiolite Recalcitrant Procrastinating Ape

    +5,880
    United Kingdom
    Agnostic
    Private
    Thank you.
     
  3. FredVB

    FredVB Regular Member

    +487
    United States
    Christian
    Single
    For the answer to you, you posted this:

    No, you did not at all follow. Though it is seen I do have belief in God, that is not what I brought into discussion. It is not relevant to the point if you answer about what you think about a god or a god-god.

    My assertion is that everything of the universe existing really exists. Something of existence necessarily exists. If this were not so, there would have been really nothing, nonexistence, and there is no way all the universe, or anything at all, could come from true nonexistence. The only choice you have, logically, is existence came into being from nonexistence before it without any cause, which I say is ridiculous, or there is existence that is necessary existence, with existing necessarily, this existence is without limit and always exists, without beginning and without ever ending. Coming up with a claim of another option you call Mystery is not another choice for this logic, it is only the one or the other.

    Still, I answered what my own personal thinking is, though I hadn't seen why I should, but had you telling me you would answer further with understanding it.

    And yet still you haven't.
     
  4. Ophiolite

    Ophiolite Recalcitrant Procrastinating Ape

    +5,880
    United Kingdom
    Agnostic
    Private
    I said to @FredVB , "if you had answered it I might have been able to make sense of the various points in your post. I could also have taken a stab at trying to answer your question(s)."

    FredVB gave an answer. He then posted this.

    Not yet. I have reread several posts in this thread as a prelude to answering the questions. I've done this more than once. I hadn't given up trying to make sense of posts, but I currently feel quite lost. Perhaps you could post the specific questions or question that are of interest to you and I'll then do my best to reply.
     
  5. Yttrium

    Yttrium Well-Known Member

    513
    +486
    United States
    Skeptic
    Single
    Actually, there is another possibility: that the known universe came from an internal cause. That is, the universe has always existed, just not in the form that we currently recognize. I'm not advocating that possibility, mind you, I'm just pointing it out. Personally, I would tend to agree with an external first cause.

    In any case, there is no scientific theory that something came from nothing. There may have been some individual scientists who (irresponsibly) phrased things that way, but science is forced to leave the cause of the universe's existence as a mystery for now.
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • List
  6. Shemjaza

    Shemjaza Regular Member Supporter

    +2,001
    Australia
    Atheist
    Single
    AU-Greens
    Okay, I think I did follow you.

    When I said "mystery" I wasn't making a third choice, I was pointing out that actual beginning of the universe is unknown.

    You are using the term "logic" but it appears you are just stating what you personally find more appealing.

    Why is existence coming from true nonexistence "ridiculous"?
    Why is it reasonable for "existence is without limit and always exists, without beginning and without ever ending" and given that you accept that something can exist without beginning and end, why can't that be used to apply to this existence we live in?

    So you see, it isn't just one or another:
    * This existence came out of nowhere
    * This existence has always existed in some form or another
    * This existence has an external cause, that external cause came out of nowhere
    * This existence has an external cause, that external cause has always existed
    * This existence was caused by an earlier existence which was caused by an earlier existence which was caused by an earlier existence which was caused by an earlier existence, etc

    These are not a complete list.

    I'm personally not asserting which is true and possible, but I have not seen consistent and coherent logic or evidence that removes doubt.

    If you have logic, please present your reasoning... not just inconsistently applied arguments that reinforce your spiritual preferences.

    Personally I don't know, and I think the reasonable thing to do when you don't know is defer judgement.
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • List
  7. FredVB

    FredVB Regular Member

    +487
    United States
    Christian
    Single
    I had originally posted this.

    After this respectful post, I was confronted with comments that, according to your statements afterwards about my response to those, were with uncalled for offensiveness to me. So to start with, why? What justifies that? I say I have my worldview and perspective, I still can respect you with your conclusions though they do not convince me. I said I am still open to things that have me think differently, as I have had changing views. So why is the logic I show dismissed? What basis is there, that is supposed to change my mind, and justified the responses to me? I don't believe that mocking my understanding was justified, prove to me then why I am wrong.

    Okay, but that is not another possibility from what I had posted of the logic, that as there is existence there is then necessary existence, what you show here agrees with that, whether it is said that necessary existence is contained in the universe, or it is said that necessary existence is external to it. I only said elsewhere that the universe had a beginning and is not unlimited, that would have it be disqualified from containing necessary existence only within it, as necessary existence always exists and has no limit, as this existence is necessary

    No, you are not following. It is logic, which stands regardless of what still remains unknown. If you followed you would not have paraphrased it as you did.

    You would have us think it is possible that there was truly absolutely no existence, and the existence of the universe with us and all it contains could come into being from nothing previously. It is not going to convince me. My reason from what I still say is logic that there is existence that is necessary, and so always existed and exists without limit, which explains the universe with us and all it contains, still stands without basis to me for dismissing it.
     
  8. VirOptimus

    VirOptimus A nihilist who cares.

    +2,793
    Atheist
    Married
    You dont seem to grasp the difference between science and metaphysics.
     
  9. Shemjaza

    Shemjaza Regular Member Supporter

    +2,001
    Australia
    Atheist
    Single
    AU-Greens
    If it's logic, explain the reasoning. I pointed out the gaps, can you explain them?

    "You would have us think it is possible that there was truly absolutely no existence"

    Isn't it? Why not?
    You are comfortable with "existence that is necessary", but have't justified why it needs to be separate or even exist.

    "I still say is logic that there is existence that is necessary"
    Yes, you still say it. And you prefer it. Why?

    If you can't explain reasoning, then it isn't logic, it's just a personal preference.
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
    • Optimistic Optimistic x 1
    • List
  10. FredVB

    FredVB Regular Member

    +487
    United States
    Christian
    Single
    As I had said:

    Science is an adequate approach for what it can show. What you say, which has been little since I have posted, goes outside of science with your thoughts. I know science would not show things for that, yet we have logic that can be used, that we need for science as well.

    It is just as simple as arithmetic, if that wasn't considered. 0+0=0, 0x0=0, and 0+0+0+0+0=0, and no matter how many times more you do the operation, with only zero you still will have only zero. If there had always been no existence at all, there is no reason for there to be the existence that brings the universe we know is there into being.

    As there is existence, there could never have been nonexistence only before it, and with nothing acting existence then coming into being. I don't see belief that existence would be from nothing, and this even for explaining all the universe with us and everything in it, is really with more basis than belief in magic. So it is logical, as I say, to understand that there was always existence, and there is necessary existence then, regardless if our finite selves cannot explain that, and necessary existence would not have limits. If you say the universe had no beginning, always exists, and has no limits whatsoever, it could be said that the universe is that necessary existence. Yet the universe is widely understood now to have had a beginning, and it has many distinct individual parts that are not limitless and are not showing that they exist necessarily.
     
    Last edited: Feb 20, 2020
  11. VirOptimus

    VirOptimus A nihilist who cares.

    +2,793
    Atheist
    Married
    ....

    Only assertions, and faulty logic. Yawn.
     
  12. Ophiolite

    Ophiolite Recalcitrant Procrastinating Ape

    +5,880
    United Kingdom
    Agnostic
    Private
    You must be very, very smart to say this with such confidence; or, potentially, very, very wrong.
     
  13. FredVB

    FredVB Regular Member

    +487
    United States
    Christian
    Single
    Is it claimed that there is something wrong, or faulty, with the math, or is it that some atheist people are really dismissive, or obtuse, to consider and address it? There was vitriolic response to what I said originally, and nothing ever posted showing how anything I said was really wrong, and just suggesting a lack of education on my part, which isn't really addressing what I have said. Why should I think differently, when nothing in any response shows why I should? I see only what is necessarily existing is explaining existence. How is it shown that it would be otherwise?
     
    Last edited: Feb 23, 2020
  14. Shemjaza

    Shemjaza Regular Member Supporter

    +2,001
    Australia
    Atheist
    Single
    AU-Greens
    I understand the mathematical axioms... I've seen no evidence that it applies to universes or God.

    Why? Why must this be so?

    We don't know how the universe started, in fact we don't even know it did. The time zero before the big bang is a complete mystery and may in fact be unknowable.

    You need to demonstrate that the simple math you have presented actually applies.

    You haven't done that. There are a multitude of physical processes in the current day universe that behave in a completely alien way to conventional understanding, so confident, unevidenced declarations that the formation of a universe is as simple as 1 + 2 seems completely unreasonable.

    (Also, please stop playing the victim about people taking offense when you deliberately to offend an entire group. It's silly and unbecoming of adult conversation.)
     
  15. FredVB

    FredVB Regular Member

    +487
    United States
    Christian
    Single
    Why? Why would mathematics not apply? Though there are processes alien to conventional understanding, where is it that mathematics is not applying? Mathematics is foundational, there is claim in it of it being universal. Where is it known to not apply? That should be shown if there is claim of that, rather than a demonstration being needed that mathematics does apply. Mystery is no reason to dismiss it.

    Why, when this was something aimed at me first, and I know it, and no one is owning that? I was not offending anyone first, I directly posted a response to the question the topic of this thread raises, and that would have been it. But that wasn't it, as this forum area of "CHRISTIAN FORUMS" is being occupied by the atheists who come here. Why? Why are any of you here on Christian Forums to accuse Christian believers? You have forums already for your communication, right? I don't go to forums that are about what I disagree with, I don't know that any others are doing that. I go to forums to communicate with others with whom I have something that is clearly in common with them. In other forums there is a word for any such who would go to the forums that are about what they disagree with to argue.

    It is not that I cannot go on with basis for what I say shown here on Christian Forums.
     
  16. VirOptimus

    VirOptimus A nihilist who cares.

    +2,793
    Atheist
    Married
    Math is an axiomatic logical system that is used in science. It is not the same as physical reality.
     
  17. Speedwell

    Speedwell Well-Known Member

    +12,405
    United States
    Other Religion
    Married
    You are not being disagreed with nor are your arguments being criticized because you are a Christian. Those of us who criticize your arguments or disagree with you are not all atheists. Get over it.
     
    • Agree Agree x 3
    • Winner Winner x 2
    • List
  18. Ophiolite

    Ophiolite Recalcitrant Procrastinating Ape

    +5,880
    United Kingdom
    Agnostic
    Private
    What you are saying is that you generally avoid those who have a different world view and seek out those who are like minded. In contrast most of the atheists here, and many of the Christians, are deliberately exposing themselves to alternate opinions and looking to engage with those who think differently. Why?
    • To better understand the alternate views
    • To refine and amend ones own views
    • To point out flaws in the alternate views and better appreciate the weaknesses in ones own
    • To seek out common ground
    • To enhance ones communication skills
    If you haven't encountered such a milieu before, but have cocooned yourself away among fellows, then it is not surprising that you have, erroneously, concluded you are being picked on here. You aren't. I hope you can come to realise that and gain something thereby.
     
  19. Shemjaza

    Shemjaza Regular Member Supporter

    +2,001
    Australia
    Atheist
    Single
    AU-Greens
    I never said that mathematics can't be used to describe events in the universe. What I want you to justify is why your simplistic mathematical axiom actually apply to the universe?

    Why is the addition of integers appropriate as a description of finite universe and/or infinite creator?

    If simple integer mathematics is appropriate, why is it reasonable to assume something that can't be described by them?

    Your ability to make up stories with maths as a justification isn't evidence unless you can demonstrate that it's reasonable.

    For example:
    Dogs are 2 and cats are 4, so despite both cats and dogs being even an thus able to divide, cats are twice as good as dogs... it's just maths, you can't argue with maths.

    It isn't reasonable, it isn't evidenced, but it is related to a narrative about mathematical axioms.


    So mystery is absolutely a reason to dismiss it. It represents significant unknowns. You don't have details or justified explanations, so all you have is reassuring storytelling. Meaningless from a scientific or logical perspective.

    Spare me the petulance.

    One person used an insulting term, in text, when describing the logical usefulness one of your arguments and you responded with a large image of a generalised and false attack on all atheists.

    Your use of the same word doesn't change that your target and the manner of how you presented it was radically different.

    As to why non-Chrsitians are here, where we are specifically allowed to post? It's to have interesting and productive conversations with Christians.

    Don't misconstrue people disagreeing with you or your arguments as attacks on Christians in general or on Christianity.
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
    • Like Like x 1
    • List
  20. Ophiolite

    Ophiolite Recalcitrant Procrastinating Ape

    +5,880
    United Kingdom
    Agnostic
    Private
    @VirOptimus and @Shemjaza have expressed my thinking on this at least as clearly as I could have done and probably much better. I shall let their answers stand for me.
     
Loading...