Lets vote for the Bible to be our form of government- #vote for God

[Jamdoc]

What I posted was from the Catechism of the Catholic Church, the official dogma of the Church. It clearly state the commandment against idols.

The commandments I was taught as I have Catholic family were
Thou shalt not have other gods besides Me
Thou shalt not take the Name of the Lord thy God in vain
Remember to keep holy the Lord’s day
Honor thy father and thy mother
Thou shalt not murder
Thou shalt not commit adultery
Thou shalt not steal
Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor
Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor’s wife
Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor’s goods

Why would they do that, have a ban against Idols in their Catechism but not in what they actually teach people, and double up on covetousness?

 

[ViaCrucis]

The commandments I was taught as I have Catholic family were
Thou shalt not have other gods besides Me
Thou shalt not take the Name of the Lord thy God in vain
Remember to keep holy the Lord’s day
Honor thy father and thy mother
Thou shalt not murder
Thou shalt not commit adultery
Thou shalt not steal
Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor
Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor’s wife
Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor’s goods

Why would they do that, have a ban against Idols in their Catechism but not in what they actually teach people, and double up on covetousness?

This numbering of the Decalogue goes back to St. Augustine. It's what the Western Church has used since then, at least until some Protestants followed John Calvin's numbering system. Lutherans and Anglicans still use the historic Western numbering; while most Protestants use John Calvin's renumbering. And at the same time the Jews have their own numbering of the Decalogue, and the Orthodox also have their own numbering.

In the Jewish numbering:

1. I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt.
2. You shall have no other gods besides Me.
3. You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain.
4. Remember the Sabbath.
5. Honor your father and your mother.
6. You shall not murder.
7. You shall not commit adultery.
8. You shall not steal.
9. You shall not bear false witness.
10. You shall not covet.

In the Orthodox numbering:

1. I am the LORD your God who brought you out of the land of Egypt.
2. You shall not make any graven image.
3. You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain.
4. Remember the Sabbath.
5. Honor your father and your mother.
6. You shall not murder.
7. You shall not commit adultery.
8. You shall not steal.
9. You shall not bear false witness.
10. You shall not covet.

If the historic Western numbering of the Decalogue is problematic for not specifically numbering the prohibition against idols separate from the rest, then so is the Jewish numbering.

It's not a valid criticism.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[ViaCrucis]

this is a non literal view of scripture which I would disagree with. If one verse can be spiritualized, then salvation, the trinity, heaven, hell can all be spiritualized.

So you believe in the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist?

"This is My Body broken for you"
"This is the cup of the new covenant in My blood poured out for you."

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Jamdoc]

This numbering of the Decalogue goes back to St. Augustine. It's what the Western Church has used since then, at least until some Protestants followed John Calvin's numbering system. Lutherans and Anglicans still use the historic Western numbering; while most Protestants use John Calvin's renumbering. And at the same time the Jews have their own numbering of the Decalogue, and the Orthodox also have their own numbering.

In the Jewish numbering:

1. I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt.
2. You shall have no other gods besides Me.
3. You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain.
4. Remember the Sabbath.
5. Honor your father and your mother.
6. You shall not murder.
7. You shall not commit adultery.
8. You shall not steal.
9. You shall not bear false witness.
10. You shall not covet.

In the Orthodox numbering:

1. I am the LORD your God who brought you out of the land of Egypt.
2. You shall not make any graven image.
3. You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain.
4. Remember the Sabbath.
5. Honor your father and your mother.
6. You shall not murder.
7. You shall not commit adultery.
8. You shall not steal.
9. You shall not bear false witness.
10. You shall not covet.

If the historic Western numbering of the Decalogue is problematic for not specifically numbering the prohibition against idols separate from the rest, then so is the Jewish numbering.

It's not a valid criticism.

-CryptoLutheran

I'd consider them both problematic then. Because what did the Israelites do when Moses was on the mountain? they made Idols. The Catholic church calls it "venerating" rather than worshiping, but it's virtually indistinguishable, especially when they pray to and through these objects, including the rosary beads.
If people can accuse others of making idols out of NFL football, a TV show, a new car, etc, then it's hard for me to say that praying to a statue of Mary is not idolatry.

 

[ViaCrucis]

I'd consider them both problematic then. Because what did the Israelites do when Moses was on the mountain? they made Idols. The Catholic church calls it "venerating" rather than worshiping, but it's virtually indistinguishable, especially when they pray to and through these objects, including the rosary beads.
If people can accuse others of making idols out of NFL football, a TV show, a new car, etc, then it's hard for me to say that praying to a statue of Mary is not idolatry.

Then what you're doing is having a prejudice against Catholic practice, and attempting to wrangle in how Christians in the West traditionally number the commandments in order to rationalize your prejudice.

No, sacred images are not idols. And veneration is not "worship". I venerate the Bible, but I do not worship the Bible. I venerate the Blessed Virgin mother of God, but I do not worship her. I venerate Abraham, Moses, the Apostles, and indeed all the saints who have come before, but I do not worship them. I venerate the cross, but I do not worship the cross. I venerate my parents, but I do not worship my parents.

Veneration--respect and reverence--is the appropriate attitude to have toward many persons and things; but worship belongs to God alone.

Take a look at the Orthodox numbering, notice that the Orthodox do specify the prohibition against idols as its own distinct commandment. Do you think the Orthodox use less images than Catholics? If you know anything about Orthodoxy you'd know that's certainly not the case.

Again, this is an invalid criticism. It's trying to find an issue when there is none.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Jamdoc]

So we see right here, why it might be a bad idea to implement a theocratic form of worldly government, because even a simple disagreement over 1 doctrine such as "venerating" statues and praying with beads, can become a legal problem under such a system depending on which doctrines were applied.

 

[Thomas White]

The commandments I was taught as I have Catholic family were
Thou shalt not have other gods besides Me
Thou shalt not take the Name of the Lord thy God in vain
Remember to keep holy the Lord’s day
Honor thy father and thy mother
Thou shalt not murder
Thou shalt not commit adultery
Thou shalt not steal
Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor
Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor’s wife
Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor’s goods

Why would they do that, have a ban against Idols in their Catechism but not in what they actually teach people, and double up on covetousness?

Not sure why your family would teach it to you that way. I went through the conversion process in 2010. My copy of the Catechism is only ten years old. Maybe they changed it since you were first introduced to the commandments?

 

[Jamdoc]

Not sure why your family would teach it to you that way. I went through the conversion process in 2010. My copy of the Catechism is only ten years old. Maybe they changed it since you were first introduced to the commandments?

I'm not disputing that what you said is in the Catechism, just that that's not what I'd been taught in Catholic settings. It was always skipping the commandment not to make idols (and saying it was part of the first commandment, they just don't have that as part of what they teach for memorization's sake), and making 2 commandments against coveting, can't covet their wife, can't covet their goods.

When the simpler commandment is just thou shalt not covet.
But that only makes 9, so if they don't have the ban on idolatry as a separate commandment and include it as part of the 1st, then they have to make a 10th somewhere to have a Decalogue. So that's what they did.
I prefer having idolatry as a separate commandment and leaving coveting as a single commandment, cause it's the state of desiring something that's not yours whatever it is that's the important thing to avoid, not making a distinction between their belongings and their wife. Cause coveting the wife also kind of already fits into the ban on adultery. But idolatry has been a vice for Israel how many times has it gotten them the wrath of God?

 

[Thomas White]

I'm not disputing that what you said is in the Catechism, just that that's not what I'd been taught in Catholic settings. It was always skipping the commandment not to make idols (and saying it was part of the first commandment, they just don't have that as part of what they teach for memorization's sake), and making 2 commandments against coveting, can't covet their wife, can't covet their goods.

When the simpler commandment is just thou shalt not covet.
But that only makes 9, so if they don't have the ban on idolatry as a separate commandment and include it as part of the 1st, then they have to make a 10th somewhere to have a Decalogue. So that's what they did.
I prefer having idolatry as a separate commandment and leaving coveting as a single commandment, cause it's the state of desiring something that's not yours whatever it is that's the important thing to avoid, not making a distinction between their belongings and their wife. Cause coveting the wife also kind of already fits into the ban on adultery. But idolatry has been a vice for Israel how many times has it gotten them the wrath of God?

I get you. I'm going to read up on this and get back to you.

 

[createdtoworship]

So now this isn’t just going to be a Christian nation, but it will specifically Be an Evangelical Christian nation. So those running it will all be very conservative? The title of your thread says this is being done by vote. Are you limiting the voters to Evangelical Christians?

Bad idea to begin with, even a worse idea now.

no I am just proving a point, the largest christian group is not questioning what you think they are.

 

[createdtoworship]

In a conversation with a friend on your plans for government dictation of academic policies he told me of encountering this very situation when he was a high school biology teacher. He taught at a private charter school which while not Christian may of well have been. The board decided that his biology classes woudl teach intelligent design and "real science" He told the board that they wouldn't like the results. The board demanded approval of his lesson plans and he happily complied. The start of the school year would begin with instruction of facts, theories and hypothesizes and how to differentiated them and move to evaluation of evidence and research presented in the "approved" science textbooks. The kids woudl study and research ID for themselves. At the start of the year he surveyed all his students and found that 90% rejected evolution and completely accepted creationism/intelligent design. At the end of the year 98% of the students had rejected ID/creationism and viewed evolution as based in evidence and truth. the three or four students not fully on board with evolution indicated they believed evolution to be completely correct but it was just guided by the hand of God

So good luck with trying to force kids to accept your fake science.

well ID has inherent flaws. For example how does one "prove" intelligence? How does one falsify it? Well it's easier said than done. That is why I mentioned creationism, which is taught in the Bible first five chapters. But ID is not creationism. If fact many ID'ers specifically mention they are NOT creationists. But most IDer's I know of now days realize that ID takes specialized training, that would be very hard to institute. But in creationism, we already have the text book there, it's the Bible. So again they would be forced to teach the scriptures, and how they mention Adam and Eve were made fully formed. But if you want to teach that some strange hypothetical soup spawned life from an electrocuted mud puddle. And that all of this happened on a random rock in space that was flying due to an explosion that was caused by nothing. And that out of this puddle simple cells evolved heterosexuality from asexuality. Then they evolved lungs, and legs and walked out of the puddle and ditched the gills and fins for fur. And climbed a tree and started eating bananas, then realized after his brain got way to big, that he was too sophisticated to swing from trees, that he wanted to ditch the fur and the tail and walk on two feet upright. And that now he teaches other bipeds that we evolved from a puddle. Well you can teach that all you want. But in God's theocratic kingdom, this is mythology. "It is virtually impossible to imagine how a cell's machines...could have formed spontaneously...as life first arose from nonliving matter around 3.7 billion years ago." Jack Szostak 2009 scientific american

 

[createdtoworship]

Are you proposing that a group of Christians take over the government, undemocratically and unconstitutionally, and force a theocracy on the people of this country? I mean, we’d all like the laws to be changed to fit our own personal belief systems, but unless a majority of people share your views you won’t accomplish that in a democracy.

that is normally true yes. But I feel if I fast and pray for this to happen, to lobby it on the internet that God will eventually answer my prayer. However He wishes to do that.

 

[Quartermaine]

well ID has inherent flaws.

first and foremost of these is that it is just thinly disguised creationism.

For example how does one "prove" intelligence? How does one falsify it? Well it's easier said than done. That is why I mentioned creationism, which is taught in the Bible first five chapters. But ID is not creationism. If fact many ID'ers specifically mention they are NOT creationists.

They also try to claim that ID is scientific

But most IDer's I know of now days realize that ID takes specialized training, that would be very hard to institute. But in creationism, we already have the text book there, it's the Bible. So again they would be forced to teach the scriptures, and how they mention Adam and Eve were made fully formed.

again how would you force the millions of teachers to abandon their integrity?

But if you want to teach that some strange hypothetical soup spawned life from an electrocuted mud puddle. And that all of this happened on a random rock in space that was flying due to an explosion that was caused by nothing. And that out of this puddle simple cells evolved heterosexuality from asexuality. Then they evolved lungs, and legs and walked out of the puddle and ditched the gills and fins for fur. And climbed a tree and started eating bananas, then realized after his brain got way to big, that he was too sophisticated to swing from trees, that he wanted to ditch the fur and the tail and walk on two feet upright. And that now he teaches other bipeds that we evolved from a puddle. Well you can teach that all you want.

it's obvious that you don't know anything about evolution.

But in God's theocratic kingdom, this is mythology. "It is virtually impossible to imagine how a cell's machines...could have formed spontaneously...as life first arose from nonliving matter around 3.7 billion years ago." Jack Szostak 2009 scientific american

one of the more famous creationist quote mines. One has to wonder if the creationist that made this up thought he would fool anyone?

Even though i know you won't look at it much less read it....Here is the actual article by Szostak and RIcardo where they go on to describe just how life first arose from nonliving matter. Life on Earth

I'm sure you will want the findings of the research that Szostak and his colleges engaged in and won the Nobel prize for will be banned from schools. Can't have the kids learning facts now can we?

 

[createdtoworship]

first and foremost of these is that it is just thinly disguised creationism.

they use completely different sources to prove completely different points, how can they be the same?

They also try to claim that ID is scientific

This is no different than saying monkey to man evolution is scientific.

again how would you force the millions of teachers to abandon their integrity?

As I have said, evolution via "the goo, to 'you' mentality, via the zoo"...doesn't work

it's obvious that you don't know anything about evolution.

but the sad part is you didn't even try to refute it with bullets which means you mostly agree with it, that is the sad part.

one of the more famous creationist quote mines. One has to wonder if the creationist that made this up thought he would fool anyone?

the term quote mine, is itself a quote mine, that is, it doesn't exist in any official dictionary. Cambridge, oxford, websters. The only dictionaries that inclue it are online dictionaries which no universities will honor.

Even though i know you won't look at it much less read it....Here is the actual article by Szostak and RIcardo where they go on to describe just how life first arose from nonliving matter. Life on Earth

well I could read it, but just quote from it, how non living matter can become living matter? Or how asexual cells can become hetero sexual, or how gills can evolve into lungs, or how fins can evolve into feed, or how dark spots can evolve into photo sensitive eyes? I could go on literally for days with questions. Which you, or your article simply cannot prove. And yet you call it "honest" to say it's science?

I'm sure you will want the findings of the research that Szostak and his colleges engaged in and won the Nobel prize for will be banned from schools. Can't have the kids learning facts now can we?

sir the majority of nobel peace prizes come from Jews. Do we therefore make everyone Jewish? So I don't get what you are trying to say here.

 

[createdtoworship]

A theocracy is a dictatorship according to some, but it's ok for pakistan to hang child rapists publically.....that is ok.

Pakistan parliament calls for public hanging of child rapists, killers

 

[Jonathan Walkerin]

well I could read it, but just quote from it, how non living matter can become living matter? Or how asexual cells can become hetero sexual, or how gills can evolve into lungs, or how fins can evolve into feed, or how dark spots can evolve into photo sensitive eyes? I could go on literally for days with questions. Which you, or your article simply cannot prove. And yet you call it "honest" to say it's science?

Congratulations. You have discovered

Argument from incredulity - RationalWiki

 

[createdtoworship]

Congratulations. You have discovered

Argument from incredulity - RationalWiki

again sir, you believe we evolved from a puddle and somehow this is designated as science, but me saying we should teach from the Bible is somehow immoral? You know, things like....'DON'T STEAL" "DON'T KILL" "LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR.' Those are all bad things to teach?

 

[Jonathan Walkerin]

You know, things like....'DON'T STEAL" "DON'T KILL" "LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR.' Those are all bad things to teach?

That is morality teachings. What has that to do with teaching science ?

Also the Bible condones killing "witches" and stoning gays so there is usually plenty of cherry picking going on.

 

[Archivist]

no I am just proving a point, the largest christian group is not questioning what you think they are.

If you look at the religious breakdown of the United States, 23% of the population is Roman Catholic. According to Wikipedia the Roman Catholic Church in America has 68,202,492 members. They are the largest single religious group in America. There are more Protestants overall--almost 49% of the population--but the Protestants are rather fragmented. The next largest denominations are the Southern Baptists with 16,136,044 members, the United Methodist Church with 7,679,850 members (the recent vote by the United Methodists will change that). The Mormons are the next largest body with 6,157,238 members (1.8% of the population). BTW, 18.2% claim no religion and that number has been increasing.

Care to show me some evidence that Evangelical Christians are going to win this vote for which you are calling?

 

[Archivist]

This is no different than saying monkey to man evolution is scientific.

You do realize that the Theory of Evolution does not claim that man evolved from monkeys, don't you?