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Let's try this again

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shinbits

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Being sinless puts her in the same state as Adam and Eve before the fall and the same state we shall all be in when our sanctification is complete -- hardly above the rest of humanity.
As I said before, she's different from Adam and Eve. First of all, she was born sinless, even though her parents were sinners. Adam and Eve were created by a perfect God. That puts Mary's above Adam and Eve, because it (falsly) shows she's incorruptable.
Secondly, unlike the rest of humanity, she supposedly remained sinless.

Put those two factors together, she's way above humanity, and into the realm of a god.

The apostles heard and acted on prayers as well
You misunderstand. By "heard", I don't mean just happened to be in the same area as someone praying, and overhead what they were praying for. Mary can supposedly hear prayers in the same way that God can, by people praying directly to them, from all over the world. That's something only a god can do, not a human.

Jesus tells us that there have been two places of honor reserved in heaven -- at his right and left hand. So in your view these people will therefore be gods since they will have this position of honor? I suppose you believe then that two people are going to be deifed over the rest of humanity since to honor someone with a position or title in heaven means making them godlike?
"Queen of Heaven" is more than a "position of honor", which would merely mean she's highly regarded. A queen is a ruler with power. To be a ruler in heaven means you are God, or a god.
 
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narnia59

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No one said that bowing, in of itself, is wrong. Bowing to a false god like what Catholics turned Mary into, is.
So if it is now not the bowing that is wrong -- then the point of the pictures would be?

I've love to see Catholic source that identifies Mary as being divine.

You do seem to display a lot of erroneous beliefs about what being divine actually means however.


"Queen mother" is a the status of an earthly woman. "Queen of Heaven" would be the status of a godess.
"Queen mother" is the status of the mother of the Jewish kingships, which are a foreshadowing of the kingship of Christ, whose kingdom is not of this world, but rather ...... HEAVEN.
 
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laconicstudent

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ccc.jpg
[SIZE=+2] PART ONE
THE PROFESSION OF FAITH
[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+1]SECTION TWO
THE PROFESSION OF THE CHRISTIAN FAITH
[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+1]CHAPTER THREE
I BELIEVE IN THE HOLY SPIRIT[/SIZE]
ARTICLE 9
"I BELIEVE IN THE HOLY CATHOLIC CHURCH"

[SIZE=+1] Paragraph 6. Mary - Mother of Christ, Mother of the Church [/SIZE]
963 Since the Virgin Mary's role in the mystery of Christ and the Spirit has been treated, it is fitting now to consider her place in the mystery of the Church. "The Virgin Mary . . . is acknowledged and honored as being truly the Mother of God and of the redeemer.... She is 'clearly the mother of the members of Christ' . . . since she has by her charity joined in bringing about the birth of believers in the Church, who are members of its head."500 "Mary, Mother of Christ, Mother of the Church."501
I. MARY'S MOTHERHOOD WITH REGARD TO THE CHURCH
Wholly united with her Son . . .
964 Mary's role in the Church is inseparable from her union with Christ and flows directly from it. "This union of the mother with the Son in the work of salvation is made manifest from the time of Christ's virginal conception up to his death";502 it is made manifest above all at the hour of his Passion:

[SIZE=-1]Thus the Blessed Virgin advanced in her pilgrimage of faith, and faithfully persevered in her union with her Son unto the cross. There she stood, in keeping with the divine plan, enduring with her only begotten Son the intensity of his suffering, joining herself with his sacrifice in her mother's heart, and lovingly consenting to the immolation of this victim, born of her: to be given, by the same Christ Jesus dying on the cross, as a mother to his disciple, with these words: "Woman, behold your son."503[/SIZE] 965 After her Son's Ascension, Mary "aided the beginnings of the Church by her prayers."504 In her association with the apostles and several women, "we also see Mary by her prayers imploring the gift of the Spirit, who had already overshadowed her in the Annunciation."505
. . . also in her Assumption
966 "Finally the Immaculate Virgin, preserved free from all stain of original sin, when the course of her earthly life was finished, was taken up body and soul into heavenly glory, and exalted by the Lord as Queen over all things, so that she might be the more fully conformed to her Son, the Lord of lords and conqueror of sin and death."506 The Assumption of the Blessed Virgin is a singular participation in her Son's Resurrection and an anticipation of the resurrection of other Christians:

[SIZE=-1]In giving birth you kept your virginity; in your Dormition you did not leave the world, O Mother of God, but were joined to the source of Life. You conceived the living God and, by your prayers, will deliver our souls from death.507[/SIZE] . . . she is our Mother in the order of grace
967 By her complete adherence to the Father's will, to his Son's redemptive work, and to every prompting of the Holy Spirit, the Virgin Mary is the Church's model of faith and charity. Thus she is a "preeminent and . . . wholly unique member of the Church"; indeed, she is the "exemplary realization" (typus)508 of the Church.
968 Her role in relation to the Church and to all humanity goes still further. "In a wholly singular way she cooperated by her obedience, faith, hope, and burning charity in the Savior's work of restoring supernatural life to souls. For this reason she is a mother to us in the order of grace."509
969 "This motherhood of Mary in the order of grace continues uninterruptedly from the consent which she loyally gave at the Annunciation and which she sustained without wavering beneath the cross, until the eternal fulfillment of all the elect. Taken up to heaven she did not lay aside this saving office but by her manifold intercession continues to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation .... Therefore the Blessed Virgin is invoked in the Church under the titles of Advocate, Helper, Benefactress, and Mediatrix."510
[SIZE=-1] 970 "Mary's function as mother of men in no way obscures or diminishes this unique mediation of Christ, but rather shows its power. But the Blessed Virgin's salutary influence on men . . . flows forth from the superabundance of the merits of Christ, rests on his mediation, depends entirely on it, and draws all its power from it."511 "No creature could ever be counted along with the Incarnate Word and Redeemer; but just as the priesthood of Christ is shared in various ways both by his ministers and the faithful, and as the one goodness of God is radiated in different ways among his creatures, so also the unique mediation of the Redeemer does not exclude but rather gives rise to a manifold cooperation which is but a sharing in this one source."512[/SIZE]
II. DEVOTION TO THE BLESSED VIRGIN
971 "All generations will call me blessed": "The Church's devotion to the Blessed Virgin is intrinsic to Christian worship."513 The Church rightly honors "the Blessed Virgin with special devotion. From the most ancient times the Blessed Virgin has been honored with the title of 'Mother of God,' to whose protection the faithful fly in all their dangers and needs. . . . This very special devotion . . . differs essentially from the adoration which is given to the incarnate Word and equally to the Father and the Holy Spirit, and greatly fosters this adoration."514 The liturgical feasts dedicated to the Mother of God and Marian prayer, such as the rosary, an "epitome of the whole Gospel," express this devotion to the Virgin Mary.515
III. MARY - ESCHATOLOGICAL ICON OF THE CHURCH
972 After speaking of the Church, her origin, mission, and destiny, we can find no better way to conclude than by looking to Mary. In her we contemplate what the Church already is in her mystery on her own "pilgrimage of faith," and what she will be in the homeland at the end of her journey. There, "in the glory of the Most Holy and Undivided Trinity," "in the communion of all the saints,"516 the Church is awaited by the one she venerates as Mother of her Lord and as her own mother.

[SIZE=-1]In the meantime the Mother of Jesus, in the glory which she possesses in body and soul in heaven, is the image and beginning of the Church as it is to be perfected in the world to come. Likewise she shines forth on earth until the day of the Lord shall come, a sign of certain hope and comfort to the pilgrim People of God.517[/SIZE] IN BRIEF
973 By pronouncing her "fiat" at the Annunciation and giving her consent to the Incarnation, Mary was already collaborating with the whole work her Son was to accomplish. She is mother wherever he is Savior and head of the Mystical Body.
974 The Most Blessed Virgin Mary, when the course of her earthly life was completed, was taken up body and soul into the glory of heaven, where she already shares in the glory of her Son's Resurrection, anticipating the resurrection of all members of his Body.
975 "We believe that the Holy Mother of God, the new Eve, Mother of the Church, continues in heaven to exercise her maternal role on behalf of the members of Christ" (Paul VI, CPG # 15).


Catechism of the Catholic Church - Mary - Mother of Christ, Mother of the Church


There. Now we can lay the "Roman Catholics regard Mary as a deity" silliness to rest.
 
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shinbits

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More faulty thinking. Bowing in front of Mary is like men throwing money at a woman in a strip club= adultery and can be seen from the pictures, because you believe it to be so.

Even though it has been pointed out that it isn't
What else could men throwing money at a stripper in a strip club mean? You seem real silly here, since the rest of the world would conclude it means those men are there for some type of sexual gratification. And since according to the Bible, those men would be commiting adultery because they lust for her in their hearts, you're completely wrong. Again.

Just like many Catholics, you use faulty logic to support your flimsy position.
 
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laconicstudent

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What else could men throwing money at a stripper in a strip club mean?

Payment of child support in cash.


You seem real silly here, since the rest of the world would conclude it means those men are there for some type of sexual gratification. And since according to the Bible, those men would be commiting adultery because they lust for her in their hearts, you're completely wrong. Again.

Perhaps the rest of the world shouldn't be so judgmental.


Just like many Catholics, you use faulty logic to support your flimsy position.

cute.
 
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narnia59

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The angels were made sinless, by a perfect God.
Mary supposedly was born perfect, even though she came from not one, but two sinful parents. To be perfect, even then, is something no angel can boast of, which puts her at a level of holiness higher than the angels, and gives her a godlike quality.
"Perfect" does not equate to "sinless". A person can err, yet not commit sin. Therefore they may be imperfect, but yet not a sinner. Ever hear of an honest mistake? Not a sin.

And since Scripture speaks loud and clear about our need to be 'perfect', and that we will indeed be 'made perfect' -- Perfect does not equate to being considered divine either.

And by the way, we are supposed to strive to be God-like -- are we not? "Be perfect as your heavenly Father is perfect"? Having God-like qualities does not equate a person to being divine either.
 
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Christos Anesti

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a level of holiness higher than the angels

The Virgin Mary is greater than the angels. The Divine Liturgy proclaims this:

It is truly meet to bless thee, O Theotokos,
ever blessed, and most pure, and the Mother of our God.
More honorable than the cherubim,
and beyond compare more glorious than the seraphim.
Without defilement you gave birth to God the Word.
True Theotokos, we magnify thee.
 
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shinbits

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Again confusion I see. Since when does sinless=divine? Adam and Eve were divine prior to the fall? The angels who never sinned are divine?
As I pointed out, Catholics believe Mary remained sinless, despite being born of two sinful parents. That puts her level of holiness above Adam and Eve, and even above the angels, who were created by a perfect God. It shows that Mary is incorruptable, despite all this, giving her the level of a God.


And how is it that being sinless since birth cannot be an act of grace? One cannot receive grace unless one sins? So the angels in heaven -- no grace? Adam and Eve did not 'fall from grace' -- they never had it?
Do you even know what grace is? Without sin, there's no reason for grace.
 
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laconicstudent

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As I pointed out, Catholics believe Mary remained sinless, despite being born of two sinful parents. That puts her level of holiness above Adam and Eve, and even above the angels, who were created by a perfect God.

Yes.

It shows that Mary is incorruptable, despite all this, giving her the level of a God.

No. You need to stop presenting straw men. It is really quite boring. Roman Catholics have told you you are wrong, and it has been demonstrated from their Catechism.

Do you even know what grace is? Without sin, there's no reason for grace.

Possibly because you don't have any passing familiarity with the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception.
 
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narnia59

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As I said before, she's different from Adam and Eve. First of all, she was born sinless, even though her parents were sinners. Adam and Eve were created by a perfect God. That puts Mary's above Adam and Eve, because it (falsly) shows she's incorruptable.
Secondly, unlike the rest of humanity, she supposedly remained sinless.

Put those two factors together, she's way above humanity, and into the realm of a god.
And we are being made sinless, even though our parents were sinners. And then we shall be glorified, and incorruptible ourselves. And we shall remain sinless.

None of that means we'll be above humanity when we reach that state -- not sure why it should mean so for Mary. None of that means we will be God when we reach that state -- not sure why one would think it should mean so for Mary.

Unless you believe God's grace is incapable of preserving someone from sin as well as renewing someone from sin. If that is the case, that would then be casting a limitation on God's abilities. That would conclude not a raising up of Mary, but a lowering of God. Thankfully, Catholics don't have that understanding of God having those sorts of limitations.

You misunderstand. By "heard", I don't mean just happened to be in the same area as someone praying, and overhead what they were praying for. Mary can supposedly hear prayers in the same way that God can, by people praying directly to them, from all over the world. That's something only a god can do, not a human.
How do the angels know every time a sinner repents? Does that mean they too must be gods?

"Queen of Heaven" is more than a "position of honor", which would merely mean she's highly regarded. A queen is a ruler with power. To be a ruler in heaven means you are God, or a god.
Did the queen mother have 'power'?

Are we not 'empowered' by the Holy Spirit? Does that make us gods?
 
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shinbits

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So if it is now not the bowing that is wrong -- then the point of the pictures would be?
Catholics regard Mary as a devine figure (Queen of Heaven, incorruptable sinless nature, despite being born from two sinners, the declaration that we must go through her to get to Christ [something the Holy Spirit, who is God, is said to do], etc.) And I'm sure I'm sure there's a lot more I didn't mention.

And since Catholics have given Mary so Many godlike qualities, bowing before her makes it idolotry.
 
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Christos Anesti

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I really like this one too:

All of Creation rejoices in thee, O full of grace:
the angels in heaven and the race of men,
O sanctified temple and noetic paradise,
the glory of virgins, of whom God was incarnate
and became a child, our God before the ages.
He made thy body into a throne,
and thy womb more spacious than the heavens.
All of creation rejoices in thee, O full of grace:
Glory be to thee.
 
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laconicstudent

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laconicstudent

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Lolz. Thank you for proving my point about Catholic incredulity.

It isn't my fault you are so judgmental. You should stop making up such vague scenarios and demanding that we agree your conclusion as to the circumstances is obvious.
 
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narnia59

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As I pointed out, Catholics believe Mary remained sinless, despite being born of two sinful parents. That puts her level of holiness above Adam and Eve, and even above the angels, who were created by a perfect God. It shows that Mary is incorruptable, despite all this, giving her the level of a God.
And as I've pointed out, you have no real grasp on what divinity is, and the power of grace.


Do you even know what grace is? Without sin, there's no reason for grace.
Without sin, there is no reason for mercy.

I know what grace is not -- it's not a "get out of jail free card".

Grace is the supernatural life of God. This is why Christ came from the Father "full of grace", and from that fullness of grace extends that very life to us. That extension is free and unmerited favor. It is the very life of the Trinity that has the power to transform us from sinners to saints.
 
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shinbits

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"Perfect" does not equate to "sinless". A person can err, yet not commit sin. Therefore they may be imperfect, but yet not a sinner. Ever hear of an honest mistake? Not a sin.

And since Scripture speaks loud and clear about our need to be 'perfect', and that we will indeed be 'made perfect' -- Perfect does not equate to being considered divine either.
You're playing semantic games. By perfect, I only meant in terms of being a sinner.

Since Mary was born sinless, despite being born from two sinners (not only that, but remained sinless) that puts her above Adam and Eve, and above the angels, who were created by a sinless and perfect God.
 
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narnia59

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Catholics regard Mary as a devine figure (Queen of Heaven, incorruptable sinless nature, despite being born from two sinners, the declaration that we must go through her to get to Christ [something the Holy Spirit, who is God, is said to do], etc.) And I'm sure I'm sure there's a lot more I didn't mention.

And since Catholics have given Mary so Many godlike qualities, bowing before her makes it idolotry.
Being a queen does not mean divine.

Being sinless does not mean divine.

I was born from 2 sinners and by God's grace will be sinless someday -- that does not mean I will be divine.

You'll have to point out the Catholic doctrine that says one must go through Mary to get to Christ and that God said to do that. Have you ever even read through the worship text of the Mass? Not one calling on Mary to open up the door to Christ for us. :doh:
 
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narnia59

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You're playing semantic games. By perfect, I only meant in terms of being a sinner.

Since Mary was born sinless, despite being born from two sinners (not only that, but remained sinless) that puts her above Adam and Eve, and above the angels, who were created by a sinless and perfect God.
Assuming your assertion is correct and she is therefore above Adam and Eve and the angels -- still does not equate to being God.

Aside from that, the point you seem to miss is that her being sinless is a result of God's grace, not her own merit.
 
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shinbits

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The Virgin Mary is greater than the angels. The Divine Liturgy proclaims this:

It is truly meet to bless thee, O Theotokos,
ever blessed, and most pure, and the Mother of our God.
More honorable than the cherubim,
and beyond compare more glorious than the seraphim.
Without defilement you gave birth to God the Word.
True Theotokos, we magnify thee.
Hebrews 2:7 says that God made man a "little lower than the angels".

So if humans are lower than angels, and Mary is supposedly "greater" than angels, she's a god.
 
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