RC's have given Mary qualities of a god. If RC's have written things saying otherwise, they are contradicting themselves, further showing the flaw in their beliefs.
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RC's have given Mary qualities of a god. If RC's have written things saying otherwise, they are contradicting themselves, further showing the flaw in their beliefs.No. You need to stop presenting straw men. It is really quite boring. Roman Catholics have told you you are wrong, and it has been demonstrated from their Catechism.
Hebrews 2:7 says that God made man a "little lower than the angels".
So if humans are lower than angels, and Mary is supposedly "greater" than angels, she's a god.
Which qualities are those again that Mary has that are limited only to God?RC's have given Mary qualities of a god. If RC's have written things saying otherwise, they are contradicting themselves, further showing the flaw in their beliefs.
RC's have given Mary qualities of a god.
If RC's have written things saying otherwise, they are contradicting themselves, further showing the flaw in their beliefs.
Humans didn't enter existence like that, and remain like that forever. Mary did. And it's not that alone that makes Mary a god, but all the other factors together with this one.And we are being made sinless, even though our parents were sinners. And then we shall be glorified, and incorruptible ourselves. And we shall remain sinless.
None of that means we'll be above humanity when we reach that state -- not sure why it should mean so for Mary. None of that means we will be God when we reach that state -- not sure why one would think it should mean so for Mary.
No one said God can't make anyone be born sinless. You just misused the term "grace". God's power can make someone sinless, but God's grace is something bestowed on sinners. No one's limiting God, you're just playing semantic games to distract from the fact that your position is faulty.Unless you believe God's grace is incapable of preserving someone from sin as well as renewing someone from sin. If that is the case, that would then be casting a limitation on God's abilities. That would conclude not a raising up of Mary, but a lowering of God. Thankfully, Catholics don't have that understanding of God having those sorts of limitations.
Maybe God announces it. There's no reason to assume the angels have the power to know whenever someone repents.How do the angels know every time a sinner repents? Does that mean they too must be gods?
Yes. See Jezebel.Did the queen mother have 'power'?
We don't have power OVER anyone else, like Mary supposedly has. That's what makes her a god.Are we not 'empowered' by the Holy Spirit? Does that make us gods?
This is a beautifully written hymn.I really like this one too:
All of Creation rejoices in thee, O full of grace:
the angels in heaven and the race of men,
O sanctified temple and noetic paradise,
the glory of virgins, of whom God was incarnate
and became a child, our God before the ages.
He made thy body into a throne,
and thy womb more spacious than the heavens.
All of creation rejoices in thee, O full of grace:
Glory be to thee.
You know, the whole being born sinless despite two parents as sinners thing, as well as the remaining sinless forever, as well as the "Queen of Heaven" thing, which is a title a godess would have, as well as the fact that she's prayed to like a god, and can hear and act on millions of prayers from all over the world like a god, and having images set up of her and bowed to like the way false gods are, and the belief that we must go through Mary to get to Christ (something the Bible says the Holy Spirit is for, who is God)....No, it doesn't. That is a logical leap you don't have a basis for.
You know, the whole being born sinless despite two parents as sinners thing, as well as the remaining sinless forever, as well as the "Queen of Heaven" thing, which is a title a godess would have, as well as the fact that she's prayed to like a god, and can hear and act on millions of prayers from all over the world like a god, and having images set up of her and bowed to like the way false gods are, and the belief that we must go through Mary to get to Christ (something the Bible says the Holy Spirit is for, who is God)....
Yeah, all this stuff (and probably more I don't even know about yet) is my logical basis to conclude Catholics regard treat her as a god.
Are you saying that Adam and Eve were not capable of remaining sinless? That their sin was predetermined and out of their control?Humans didn't enter existence like that, and remain like that forever. Mary did. And it's not that alone that makes Mary a god, but all the other factors together with this one.
God's mercy is something bestowed on sinners. God's grace is His very life. In his mercy, He extends to us His grace, His life, even though we are sinners. So yes, because of His mercy we are bestowed grace. But His grace is not limited to sinners --otherwise Christ would not be 'full of grace'.No one said God can't make anyone be born sinless. You just misused the term "grace". God's power can make someone sinless, but God's grace is something bestowed on sinners. No one's limiting God, you're just playing semantic games to distract from the fact that your position is faulty.
There is no reason to assume that for someone in heaven to hear prayers they have to have God-like powers either. Maybe God announces them to Mary, just as He announces to the angels that a sinner has repented. Again, the ability to hear prayers does not equate to being divine, just as the ability to know a sinner has repented does not equate to being divine.Maybe God announces it. There's no reason to assume the angels have the power to know whenever someone repents.
Try Bathsheba.Yes. See Jezebel.
What power do you think Mary has? To pray for us? Seems to me as though that power is extended to all believers. Some are more effective at it than others -- particulary the righteous as Scripture notes.We don't have power OVER anyone else, like Mary supposedly has. That's what makes her a god.
I never said that being a queen in of itself makes one devine, nor does being sinless. You have just purposely misquoted me, which is as bad as lying.Being a queen does not mean divine.
Being sinless does not mean divine.
I was born from 2 sinners and by God's grace will be sinless someday -- that does not mean I will be divine.
I got this from one of your fellow Catholics:You'll have to point out the Catholic doctrine that says one must go through Mary to get to Christ and that God said to do that. Have you ever even read through the worship text of the Mass? Not one calling on Mary to open up the door to Christ for us.
If you're saying he's wrong, I'm not surpised. Catholic doctrine contradicts itself, as well as the Bible.In the same way no one can be saved except through the Church, no one can go to the Savior except through Mary.
I never said that being a queen in of itself makes one devine, nor does being sinless. You have just purposely misquoted me, which is as bad as lying.
Being a "queen of heaven" is far different from just being any queen. Thanks for chopping up my comments and strawmanning me.
I got this from one of your fellow Catholics:
If you're saying he's wrong, I'm not surpised. Catholic doctrine contradicts itself, as well as the Bible.
Born sinless despite 2 parents -- God's grace can or cannot achieve this?You know, the whole being born sinless despite two parents as sinners thing, as well as the remaining sinless forever, as well as the "Queen of Heaven" thing, which is a title a godess would have, as well as the fact that she's prayed to like a god, and can hear and act on millions of prayers from all over the world like a god, and having images set up of her and bowed to like the way false gods are, and the belief that we must go through Mary to get to Christ (something the Bible says the Holy Spirit is for, who is God)....
Yeah, all this stuff (and probably more I don't even know about yet) is my logical basis to conclude Catholics regard treat her as a god.
It doesn't make her God, but it makes her a god. Just like how Zeus is top dog in Greek mythology, but there are other gods. Likewise, RC's have turned Mary into a lower tier god.Assuming your assertion is correct and she is therefore above Adam and Eve and the angels -- still does not equate to being God.
If God's power made her sinless, the Bible wouldn't have said all people descended of Adam (which would exclude Christ) are sinners. The Bible would've said all people, except Mary, are sinners. Thus, Mary is a sinner. If she's not, you'd be accusing the Bible of being wrong.Aside from that, the point you seem to miss is that her being sinless is a result of God's grace, not her own merit.
It doesn't make her God, but it makes her a god. Just like how Zeus is top dog in Greek mythology, but there are other gods. Likewise, RC's have turned Mary into a lower tier god.
Being the mother of the Savior is far different from just being any mother too. Still doesn't add up to Divine.I never said that being a queen in of itself makes one devine, nor does being sinless. You have just purposely misquoted me, which is as bad as lying.
Being a "queen of heaven" is far different from just being any queen. Thanks for chopping up my comments and strawmanning me.
And I'm sure there was no explanation that surrounded that? You didn't just take a snippet out of context did you?I got this from one of your fellow Catholics:
If you're saying he's wrong, I'm not surpised. Catholic doctrine contradicts itself, as well as the Bible.
You're saying you believe there are actually other gods?It doesn't make her God, but it makes her a god. Just like how Zeus is top dog in Greek mythology, but there are other gods. Likewise, RC's have turned Mary into a lower tier god.
Hmm. Two chapters later St. Paul says that "death came to all men, because all men sinned". So does the Bible contradict itself (since we know that death did not come to Elijah and Enoch by God's power), or is your understanding of what 'all' means incorrect? I'm opting for door #2 myself.If God's power made her sinless, the Bible wouldn't have said all people descended of Adam (which would exclude Christ) are sinners. The Bible would've said all people, except Mary, are sinners. Thus, Mary is a sinner. If she's not, you'd be accusing the Bible of being wrong.
God's grace cannot make a god?Born sinless despite 2 parents -- God's grace can or cannot achieve this?
Not as big a deal as when done by someone born of two sinful parents. Not even Christ did that.Remaining sinless forever -- the angels and those saints who are glorified as well.
Mary is no more Christ's mom than a surrogate implanted with an embryo. Mary is not the reason Christ came, just the vessel. Without Mary, someone else would've been chosen, and Christ would've still come. However, without Christ, she wouldn't exist, since Christ not only predates her, but being God, created her. Basically, it would be like calling David Jesus' great grandfather, which in actuality is false.Queen of Heaven -- the queen of the kingdom where her Son is King -- rooted right there in the foreshadowing of Christ in the Jewish kingships
God probably lets the angels know. There's no evidence the angels know this themselves.Can hear prayers -- sort of like the angels can know out of millions of people when a sinner repents and yet not be God.
Wrong. No one ever prayed to the apostles for an apostle to act on a prayer.Can act on prayers -- sort of how the apostles were able to heal, and we are able to intercede for each other -- God working through us
Not in of itself. Stop misquoting me.I thought you'd already agreed that 'bowing' was not worship.
Not in of itself. Stop misquoting me.Images -- an image of someone does not make them God.
I got this from one of your buddies, and even posted who said it. If he's wrong, I'm not surprised RC's can't get their story straight.Belief we must go through Mary to get to Christ -- again please point out in the primary Catholic worship service of the Mass where this is evident. The Cathechism. An ecumenical Council. A papal decree. Anything.
What else could men throwing money at a stripper in a strip club mean? You seem real silly here, since the rest of the world would conclude it means those men are there for some type of sexual gratification. And since according to the Bible, those men would be commiting adultery because they lust for her in their hearts, you're completely wrong. Again.
Just like many Catholics, you use faulty logic to support your flimsy position.
Mary is no more Christ's mom than a surrogate implanted with an embryo. Mary is not the reason Christ came, just the vessel. Without Mary, someone else would've been chosen, and Christ would've still come. However, without Christ, she wouldn't exist, since Christ not only predates her, but being God, created her. Basically, it would be like calling David Jesus' great grandfather, which in actuality is false.
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