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Let's Talk Second Amendment

Ringo84

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Since the jack booted thugs

What "jack-booted thugs"?

The gun control movement's inane rhetoric

Tell me what's "inane" about what I've said so far.

has pushed the gun rights movement to be equally unyielding.

Ah...so it's the gun control movement's fault that the NRA has become so extremist. How convenient.

When the gun control movement belches forth "reasonable" measures but doesn't consult gun owners and instead goes right to the legislation. No.

Considering that most gun owners seem to think that any regulation at all is "tramplin' mah freedoms!", that seems wise.

So yeah its possible to have reasonable discussion.

Does it begin with calling the other side's proposals "inane"?

Is this reasonable for the other guy?

OK. So what regulation would you consider "reasonable" to you?
Ringo
 
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Ecowolf

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"A well regulated militia", in my experience, is the formation and maintenance of a trained and cohesive assembly of professional men (and women) at arms.

"The right to bear arms" is the ability to keep and utilize weaponry (of any kind) for the purpose of survival (aka "putting food on the table") and reasonable self-defense.

Not an excuse to "open carry" a locked and loaded AR-15 at the grocery store or while walking the dog. Paranoid much? Open carry is not a fashion statement.

I got no issue with firearms of any kind. I do take issue with with the rampant paranoia of "the gubment gonna take muh guns away". I have no fear of my guns being confiscated. If this was to pass, it would start another civil war, the government knows this.

Firearm ownership and use is a keystone of my profession(s). I am ex-military, conservationist, and an outdoor sportsman. However I do not define myself by the weaponry I carry. I have a firearm for each of my needs. I don't own an assault rifle, 1. Cant afford one, wish I could though, 2. I dont have a need to put 30 rounds on multiple targets with precision at over a half a mile. The closest I have to an assault rifle is a Ruger 10/22 with a 30 round banana clip. Fun to make noise with, useless for hunting. I can however hit a airborne dove within 3-4 shots.

If I can do the job with one round, I dont need to waste the other 29 rounds.
Given the terrain and vegetation where I live and hunt, having to hit a target at more than 50 yards is very rare.
 
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RDKirk

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"A well regulated militia", in my experience, is the formation and maintenance of a trained and cohesive assembly of professional men (and women) at arms.

All except the "professional." By definition, "professional men and women at arms" would not be a militia.
 
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wing2000

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I think the problem with most of what are referred to as "common sense gun control" measures is that they are proposed policies that are almost always rammed through Congress by totally anti-gun zealots. It's a gun-grab, because they can't come right out and say, "okay, we're taking away your guns."

Name one example of an anti-gun zealot.
 
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Ecowolf

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All except the "professional." By definition, "professional men and women at arms" would not be a militia.

Sir, by my statement, I am referring to the National Guard and Air National Guard. I do not include hodge-podge backwoods paramilitary groups.

Furthermore, I do not intend for "backwoods" to be derogatory. Only in the meaning of being unregulated and those that organize and "train" with the explicit intention of being hidden from local and federal government. AKA "Irregulars"
 
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Anovah

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Sir, by my statement, I am referring to the National Guard and Air National Guard. I do not include hodge-podge backwoods paramilitary groups.

Weren't those organizations non-existent at the time of the writing of the constitution?

Furthermore, I do not intend for "backwoods" to be derogatory. Only in the meaning of being unregulated and those that organize and "train" with the explicit intention of being hidden from local and federal government. AKA "Irregulars"

In fairness, George Washington didn't think too highly of the militia of the time...

"All the General Officers agree that no Dependence can be put on the Militia for a Continuance in Camp, or Regularity and Discipline during the short time they may stay.”

and

“To place any dependence upon militia is assuredly resting upon a broken staff.”
 
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Ecowolf

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Weren't those organizations non-existent at the time of the writing of the constitution?

Yes and no...

The National Guard does trace its heritage to the first "minutemen" of the War of Independence. Guardsmen proudly carry on the tradition of the "citizen soldier".

and....

The Air National Guard did not exist at that time, for obvious reasons.

General Washington was correct. A dirtbag in a uniform is still a dirtbag.
 
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Panzerkamfwagen

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Ah...so it's the gun control movement's fault that the NRA has become so extremist. How convenient.

The NRA is not extremist. What makes their political positions extremist?

When a gun banner says "compromise" this is what a pro-rights person hears.


Considering that most gun owners seem to think that any regulation at all is "tramplin' mah freedoms!", that seems wise.

We already have gun regulations that demonstrably accomplish nothing. Why do we need more?


Does it begin with calling the other side's proposals "inane"?

I'd add a "hypocritical" to that list, too. Take Barack Obama, for example. He says that "Weapons of war have no place on our streets, but yet he's escorted by machine gun armed bodyguards. But yet, weapons of war have no place on our streets.

Of course, when your side has idiot politicians that don't even understand what they're trying to ban, it's hard to take them seriously. To wit:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ospNRk2uM3U


OK. So what regulation would you consider "reasonable" to you?
Ringo

What we had at the beginning of the 20th century, perhaps.
 
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Panzerkamfwagen

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Panzerkamfwagen

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Not an excuse to "open carry" a locked and loaded AR-15 at the grocery store or while walking the dog. Paranoid much? Open carry is not a fashion statement.

Is that a reference to recent events in Texas?

I believe that they are carrying rifles, because the open carry of pistols is illegal.

So, basically, it's because of anti-gun legislation.
 
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Panzerkamfwagen

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In fairness, George Washington didn't think too highly of the militia of the time...

"All the General Officers agree that no Dependence can be put on the Militia for a Continuance in Camp, or Regularity and Discipline during the short time they may stay.”

and

“To place any dependence upon militia is assuredly resting upon a broken staff.”

Interestingly enough, with brief research, I was able to locate at least one militia regiment that acquitted itself well[/url] and earned a good reputation in the Civil War.

The quality of a militia unit, as with any other military unit depends entirely upon the quality and training of men and women serving in it and the quality of the commission and non-commissioned officers.
 
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Ringo84

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Panzer said:
The NRA is not extremist. What makes their political positions extremist?

The fact that the Second Amendment is treated as so inflexible that it can break at the slightest hint of even the most milquetoast gun regulation.

When a gun banner says "compromise" this is what a pro-rights person hears.

Then that's the "pro-rights" person's problem, not the person who wants to regulate guns.

There are few, if any, actual so-called "gun banners". Immediately labeling those who disagree with you as a "banner" is one reason why we can't have an adult conversation about guns in this country.

We already have gun regulations that demonstrably accomplish nothing. Why do we need more?

If the laws don't accomplish anything, it seems to me that it would mean that we need laws that do.

I'd add a "hypocritical" to that list, too. Take Barack Obama, for example. He says that "Weapons of war have no place on our streets, but yet he's escorted by machine gun armed bodyguards. But yet, weapons of war have no place on our streets.

You honestly don't see the difference between trained Secret Service agents brandishing military-grade weaponry to protect the chief executive of the United States and some untrained schlub on the street waving around such weaponry?

Of course, when your side has idiot politicians that don't even understand what they're trying to ban, it's hard to take them seriously. To wit:

My "side"? I don't have a "side"; I just want to have a constructive dialogue on this issue without people hurling accusations about "gun banners".

Better education about guns is one way to help prevent accidental deaths.

What we had at the beginning of the 20th century, perhaps.

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Ringo
 
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GondwanaLand

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I got no issue with firearms of any kind. I do take issue with with the rampant paranoia of "the gubment gonna take muh guns away".
I know a number of people from NOLA who would beg to differ with you.

Name one example of an anti-gun zealot.
Dianne Feinstein
 
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Panzerkamfwagen

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The fact that the Second Amendment is treated as so inflexible that it can break at the slightest hint of even the most milquetoast gun regulation.

Such as? The thing about people who want to have "compromise" or "an adult conversation" about gun control that makes gun-rights supporters so cynical and so reactive, is that when they offer "compromise" it's not compromise. It's give us some of what we want now and then well take more later.



Then that's the "pro-rights" person's problem, not the person who wants to regulate guns.

No, it's a justified "fool me twice" attitude on the part of pro-rights activists, based on legislative history of anti-gunners.

There are few, if any, actual so-called "gun banners". Immediately labeling those who disagree with you as a "banner" is one reason why we can't have an adult conversation about guns in this country.

Read that article I linked to. Lawdog details the legislative history of gun control. It's one of creeping encroachment. Therefore, pro-rights activists justified in looking at any sort of "adult conversation" about firearms askance based on the legislative history of the gun control movement.

If you want to have an adult conversation about gun control, get Dianne Feinstein and Carol McCarthy to propose a bill that opens up the NFA registration to new production machine guns, and removes the regulation of suppressors from the purview of the NFA entirely and get the ATF out of the business of making up the rules as they go along. One the gun banners start proposing policies like that, then we can have an "adult conversation" about guns.

A person can make a suppressor with an oil filter and a thread adapter that can be shipped to one's doorstep from Amazon.


If the laws don't accomplish anything, it seems to me that it would mean that we need laws that do.

As a necessary first step, we should consider repealing laws that don't accomplish anything. The assault weapons ban of 1994 was an excellent example of a law that did not accomplish anything. It also had a sunset.

You honestly don't see the difference between trained Secret Service agents brandishing military-grade weaponry to protect the chief executive of the United States and some untrained schlub on the street waving around such weaponry?

Don't you see the irony of a man who is protected by people bearing weapons of war claiming that weapons of war have no place on our streets? If weapons of war have no place on our streets, why is not equipping his bodyguards with K-frame Smith and Wesson revolvers and pump shotguns? Obviously, by his actions, weapons of war do have a place on our streets.

My "side"? I don't have a "side"; I just want to have a constructive dialogue on this issue without people hurling accusations about "gun banners".

Well, you politically self-identify with the gun banners, so, I'm sorry for lumping you in with them.

Better education about guns is one way to help prevent accidental deaths.

I agree. We should bring back marksmanship training to public schools and end stupid zero tolerance suspensions for kids chewing pastries into the shape of Idaho.


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Ringo

An excellent first step would be to end the federal regulation of safety devices.
 
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Ringo84

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Such as? The thing about people who want to have "compromise" or "an adult conversation" about gun control that makes gun-rights supporters so cynical and so reactive, is that when they offer "compromise" it's not compromise. It's give us some of what we want now and then well take more later.

Such as closing the gun show loophole, and expanding background checks.

If gun owners are cynical and reactive, it's because they're overly sensitive to perceived threats to their liberties - not because of those wanting more gun regulation.

No, it's a justified "fool me twice" attitude on the part of pro-rights activists, based on legislative history of anti-gunners.

I stopped reading right here. There are no "anti-gunners" and "gun banners". Some have more restrictive views of gun regulation than others, but there are few, if any, who want to ban guns outright.

The sooner you stop lumping your opponents together into one group, the sooner truly constructive discussions about Second Amendment rights can begin.

creeping encroachment.

There's that slippery slope. As I told someone else, wanting to expand background checks is a far cry from "grabbing guns".

If you want to have an adult conversation about gun control, get Dianne Feinstein and Carol McCarthy to propose a bill that opens up the NFA registration to new production machine guns, and removes the regulation of suppressors from the purview of the NFA entirely

Those are issues with which I am unfamiliar, but I'm sure they can be discussed like rational adults.

get the ATF out of the business of making up the rules as they go along.

First, the ATF ought to actually have a director so that it can do its job.

As a necessary first step, we should consider repealing laws that don't accomplish anything. The assault weapons ban of 1994 was an excellent example of a law that did not accomplish anything. It also had a sunset.

Then perhaps "pro-rights" activists should work with regulators to produce laws that work.

Don't you see the irony of a man who is protected by people bearing weapons of war claiming that weapons of war have no place on our streets? If weapons of war have no place on our streets, why is not equipping his bodyguards with K-frame Smith and Wesson revolvers and pump shotguns? Obviously, by his actions, weapons of war do have a place on our streets.

Then have them use revolvers and pump shotguns; no skin off my teeth. I still maintain, however, that military-grade hardware should be left in the hands of trained military personnel.

Well, you politically self-identify with the gun banners, so, I'm sorry for lumping you in with them.

No, since "gun banners" don't actually exist. I do, however, identify with a party that is generally more open to regulation than the other major party.

We should bring back marksmanship training to public schools

Maybe. I'm not so sure about that.

end stupid zero tolerance suspensions for kids chewing pastries into the shape of Idaho.

Agreed without reservation. However, I would say that zero tolerance rules are a slightly different issue.

An excellent first step would be to end the federal regulation of safety devices.

Why?

That's not a challenge. I'm interested to hear you make a case for it.
Ringo
 
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GondwanaLand

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Ah yes, I remember that one! :D


And then of course we also have Carolyn McCarthy whose "knowledge" of the guns that would be banned in her own legislation spawned its own meme:

Shoulder Thing That Goes Up - YouTube

barrelshroud.jpg
 
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Ringo84

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What I'm hearing is that perhaps regulators can do more to move towards the so-called "pro-rights" side of the equation by increasing their education on weaponry and working with gun owners to produce meaningful regulation that works.

I would also argue that the so-called "pro-rights" side could do more to move towards the regulators' side. A good first step would be to not lump everyone slightly to the left of the NRA's position as "banners".

This is a good start, though. As soon as we realize that one side is not "gun crazy" and the other side is not "ban crazy", we can begin to actually have a good dialogue on the role of guns in our society.
Ringo
 
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Panzerkamfwagen

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Such as closing the gun show loophole, and expanding background checks.

There is no "gun show loophole." If a person makes his living selling firearms, then he has to have a federal firearms license, and every federal firearms licensee has to perform the background checks.

If you want to expand background checks, expand access to NICS. Say, create an easily accessible mobile compatible website for it.

If gun owners are cynical and reactive, it's because they're overly sensitive to perceived threats to their liberties - not because of those wanting more gun regulation.

Those wanting more gun regulation are a real threat to their liberties.


I stopped reading right here. There are no "anti-gunners" and "gun banners". Some have more restrictive views of gun regulation than others, but there are few, if any, who want to ban guns outright.

I think Dianne Feinstein does. And the legislative history of gun "regulators" is one of creeping incrementalism, of gradual steps toward the outright banning of firearms. The "regulators" have succeeded in banning the manufacture of one category of firearms. They've severely restricted the ownership of safety accessories. They've severely curtailed and made far more expensive and time consuming the manufacture of other firearms. Some firearms are too small to import. Some firearms are too affordable.

The sooner you stop lumping your opponents together into one group, the sooner truly constructive discussions about Second Amendment rights can begin.

Anyone in favor of "gun control" or "sensible regulation" or whatever euphemism they cloak their rhetoric in is part of the same group. I don't see why I should stop lumping people together that I see to have a common political ideology.


There's that slippery slope. As I told someone else, wanting to expand background checks is a far cry from "grabbing guns".

The legislative history of gun control is a slippery slope.



Those are issues with which I am unfamiliar, but I'm sure they can be discussed like rational adults.

Perhaps if you want to have a conversation, you should educate yourself about the issues you wish to converse about.

First, the ATF ought to actually have a director so that it can do its job.

It's not very good at its job now.

Then perhaps "pro-rights" activists should work with regulators to produce laws that work.

Why would they want to act in a way that's that contrary to their decisions?

If they'd have sat down with the regulators in New York, the regulators in New York would have learned about the gun regulations in California, and that California compliant SCARY BLACK RIFLES are also NYSAFE Act compliant.


Then have them use revolvers and pump shotguns; no skin off my teeth. I still maintain, however, that military-grade hardware should be left in the hands of trained military personnel.

What's "military grade hardware?" Your grandaddy's hunting rifle is an "armor piercing cop killer sniper rifle" and it's "military grade hardware." Pretty much any bolt action rifle is. Do you take that phrase "military grade hardware" like it sounds, and outlaw your Remington 870? What about the duck hunter's Mossberg 500? What about the moose hunter's Remington 700? Those are all "military grade hardware." What about the tens of millions of actual military weapons used by actual military forces in actual armed conflicts around the world? I have dozens of such weapons. See how vague "military grade hardware" is?

No, since "gun banners" don't actually exist. I do, however, identify with a party that is generally more open to regulation than the other major party.

Here's an actual quote from an actual gun banner elected representative:
"If I could have gotten 51 votes in the Senate of the United States for an outright ban, picking up every one of them . . . Mr. and Mrs. America, turn 'em all in, I would have done it. I could not do that. The votes weren't here."
That's a quote from Dianne Feinstein, and it's on Wikipedia.


Maybe. I'm not so sure about that.

Given the state of public education, you're probably right.


Agreed without reservation. However, I would say that zero tolerance rules are a slightly different issue.

Because it's a stupid rule.


Why?

That's not a challenge. I'm interested to hear you make a case for it.
Ringo

1) The laws don't stop anyone who wants a suppressor from going onto Amazon and purchasing a thread adapter and an oil filter and doing the math.
2) Suppressors are a safety device. Firearms emit lots and lots of noise which is damaging to people's hearing. The use of suppressors can alleviate that. They can also be useful in that context for hunting. They help with muzzle flash, too.
3) The use of suppressors can help gun run ranges and those who are dumb and move in near them [yes, I do hold people who move near a shooting range and then complain about noise in that much contempt] and then file noise complaints to coexist, by the alleviation of the noise that firearms make.
4) It's a Roosevelt era law, and I truly despise anything remotely connected with FDR's administration. Wickard v. Filburn, FDR's court packing schemes, The Selective Service and Training Act of 1940, Executive Order 9066, and Executive Order 6102 should serve to make any truly liberty loving individual despise the FDR administration.
 
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Panzerkamfwagen

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What I'm hearing is that perhaps regulators can do more to move towards the so-called "pro-rights" side of the equation by increasing their education on weaponry and working with gun owners to produce meaningful regulation that works.

Or they start by enforcing the laws that they already have.

Go read that. It's educational.

The cliff notes version is that 72,000 people were denied by background checks from purchasing a firearm when they lied on a Form 4473.

If you read through to the bottom, 45 of those people were actually prosecuted.

Before you propose new laws, try enforcing the ones on the books.

So, out of 72,000 people who lied on the gun buying form, the government prosecuted 45 of them.

45.



I would also argue that the so-called "pro-rights" side could do more to move towards the regulators' side. A good first step would be to not lump everyone slightly to the left of the NRA's position as "banners".

Or they point out that regulators don't actually care about gun laws.

See my example above.

This is a good start, though. As soon as we realize that one side is not "gun crazy" and the other side is not "ban crazy", we can begin to actually have a good dialogue on the role of guns in our society.
Ringo

Except, what's the point of another law? The government doesn't enforce the law as it stands.
 
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