Let's talk about the Trinity

[lared]

Take a closer look.

It does not say Almighty God. Only Jehovah, the Father, is Almighty. Even Jesus did not know the day or the hour, but only his Father.

And Jesus can be called the Everlasting Father because by means of his shed blood we can have everlasting life. Unfortunately, our first father, Adam, did not provide this for us.

Most of all, it is quite obvious that Jehovah was in heaven while Jesus was on earth, as Jesus often talked to his Father in prayer....and do you remember when Jesus was baptized....there was a voice out of heaven?

 

[KelsayDL]

I took a close look lared.

You said only God is everlasting, which I agreed with. Yet, Isaiah said a man would be born who would be called THE Everlasting Father.

So, are you now changing your view, are there now two everlasting fathers?

Now onto the issue of Mighty/almighty. Perhaps you should take a closer look? both titles are followed by the same word of GOD.

There seems to be a dillema in your theology. For according to your reading of the text in Isaiah, there are two seperate Gods. Which we know that cannot be.

The Lord is one.

So again, who was Isaiah talking about when God revealed to him a man would be born who would be called God?

 

[lared]

Jehovah God never had a beginning. He is from everlasting to everlasting.

Jesus was created. Thus he could not be from everlasting to everlasting.

However, as noted previously....through Jesus' shed blood we are granted everlasting life. It is is this sense, that Jesus can be called the Everlasting Father or Eternal Father.

The word 'god' means mighty one.

1 Cor 8:5 tells us that there are many gods....but to us (true Christians) there is only one God (as far as who we worship).... The Father.

So true Christians only worship the Father.

There is no dillema in my theology. So again, Isaiah was talking of Jesus Christ.

 

[KelsayDL]

The scripture does not say 'god', it says THE Mighty God.

Not, A mighty god.

It also says THE everlasting Father, not A everlasting father.

Isn't discussing the trinity fun?!

Especially when comments such as your last one come out;

So true Christians only worship the Father.

Mt 2:11 -
And when they were come into the house, they saw the young child with Mary his mother, and fell down, and worshipped him:

Mt 8:2 -
And, behold, there came a leper and worshipped him,

Mt 9:18 -
While he spake these things unto them, behold, there came a certain ruler, and worshipped him

Mt 14:33 -
Then they that were in the ship came and worshipped him

Mt 15:25 -
Then came she and worshipped him

Mt 28:9 -
And as they went to tell his disciples, behold, Jesus met them, saying, All hail. And they came and held him by the feet, and worshipped him.

Mt 28:17 -
And when they saw him, they worshipped him

Mr 5:6 -
But when he saw Jesus afar off, he ran and worshipped him

Lu 24:52 -
And they worshipped him, and returned to Jerusalem with great joy

Joh 9:38 -
And he said, Lord, I believe. And he worshipped him.

Kind of throws a wrench into your theology again, no?

Here we have many examples, from his birth where the three wise men were led to Yeshua by the hand of God that did bow down and worship him, a man born of a woman. Then we have a dozen more instances where the multitude, and his disciples called of God himself, worship him.

I suppose they were not amongst these 'true' christians you speak of.

 

[SonWorshipper]

yes, kinda flies in the face of Matthew 4:10 when Yeshua had to remind HaSatan that as it is written, Thou shalt worship the L-rd thy G-d , and him only shalt thou serve.

And in John where He tells us that the hour has come when the true worshippers, shall worship the FATHER in spirit and in truth: for the FATHER seeketh such to worship him.

 

[sojeru]

well, i say those of you that do not believe that YHWH is 2 and 3, Battle with Kabbalistic ORTHODOX jews- that know the language of the Zohar.
I believe these Jews believe in Messiah because of what the Zohar teaches concerning Genesis and Daniel with the ancient of days and the one that looked like a son of man.

 

[lared]

Should we believe in the trinity? This is discussed in detail at the following site: http://www.watchtower.org/
Click on the article entitled: Should You Believe In The Trinity? Its explanation, history, proof texts, and quotes from Bible and historical scholars are given.

 

[KelsayDL]

Your wt propoganda fails to address the fact which I already presented to you. I read it in hopes they would answer that which you could not, it did not.

The fact remains that the disciples and the multitude worshipped Jesus Christ, on this earth in the flesh. Stop up your ears to the reality of that all you like. It is a biblical fact that allows absolutely no wiggle room in any direction.

The trinity doctrine is hard to grasp. And I do not believe man has nailed it down completely. No one I know can claim to know the absolute nature of God 100%, and I do not believe the trinity doctrine is all-describing. All we have is what the bible says and shows us. And it clearly shows Jesus being worshipped, prayed to, and sung to.

And we know that he never once rebuked those actions, whereas men such as Peter rebuked the actions when men bent the knee in reverence before them, saying things such as "I too am only a man", not so concerning Jesus.

The doctrine of the trinity will save no one, that is a fact. Yet it is the most accurate description of the nature of God I have seen, regardless of origen.

Your jw propoganda would have us believe the apostles were deceived and worshipping a mere man.

I'm not buying it.

Run from those people as fast as you can.

 

[lared]

I am sorry but I am not a follower of mere men.

As a Christian I follow Christ and imitate him. I am a footstep follower of Jesus.

Question: Who did Jesus worship?
A.) His heavenly Father
B.) The trinity god
C.) Himself

A true Christian will do what Jesus did as he set an example and pattern for us.

If you want to follow the pattern set down by mere imperfect men.....that is fine.

Evidently, you prefer to use a Bible that uses a trinitarian slant. Try using other translations such as the New English Bible and you will see that the scriptures you cited will say ....."paid homage to" or "bowed low to", etc. rather then worship.

Bowing, kneeling, prostrating the body, or making some other gesture to betoken submission; or simply the paying of respect can be adequately translated from the Hebrew hishtachawah and the Greek proskyneo in many cases. And these have been used in the Bible towards men in authority.

And also, Jesus would never run from sincere men of faith, but he would reach out to them to help them. Again, you are following mere men.

The scribes and the pharisees viewed the teachings of Jesus as propaganda and could not stand to hear what he had to say.

I enjoy what he has to say. For example when he spoke to the woman at the well at John 4:23 he said:

"Nevertheless, the hour is coming, and it is now, when the true worshipers will worship

A.) the Father?
B.) the trinity god?
C.) the Son--Jesus?

with spirit and truth, for, indeed, the Father is looking for suchlike ones to worship him."

Yes, you may say,....... this means this, or that means that. I prefer the clear reasonable teachings of Jesus.

You said how much fun it is to discuss the trinity. It is far more enjoyable to worship the Father in spirit and truth and associate with his people.

Now, will you follow your own advice and run from these people as fast as you can, or will you bring up another issue as fast as you can?

 

[sojeru]

Hi Lared,

Evidently, you prefer to use a Bible that uses a trinitarian slant. Try using other translations such as the New English Bible and you will see that the scriptures you cited will say ....."paid homage to" or "bowed low to", etc. rather then worship.

you fail to realize that all of the english translations use one basic source for their translations- the GREEK MANUSCRIPTS. They may use other sources for reffrences however, they would surely not put down ALL of the refferences.

If i were any of you- go to the old syriac versions and hebrew versions of the New Testament and if not those- the Old Latin versions- not the latin vulgate.

Now- If you see any "trinitarian" slant in these- accept it for what it is.

Its a SHAME how you base authority of scriptures on translations and not its sources or its originals.

You might say, that the hebrew and aramaic are not the originals.
I SAY, if the aramaic and hebrews met the pen and writting pad is besides the point- it is the original for Messiah Spoke these languages- these were his mother tongue. And to go outside of this is to translate defectively unless by the hand of Lukas who did his own letters and possibly translated pauls.
NOTE
Lukas was a Syrian, who knew aramaic and also a doctor- so he had to know greek in his profession- and being this his proffession- he had to know it as it was himself.

shalom u'bracha

 

[lared]

Hebrew and Greek words used in the earliest manuscripts were presented in the previous post and there is no trinitarian slant in them.

 

[Lotuspetal_uk]

well, i say those of you that do not believe that YHWH is 2 and 3, Battle with Kabbalistic ORTHODOX jews- that know the language of the Zohar.
I believe these Jews believe in Messiah because of what the Zohar teaches concerning Genesis and Daniel with the ancient of days and the one that looked like a son of man.

Hello sojeru,

Hope you are well

I don't wish to derail the topic of this thread too much but I was wondering if you can post (perhaps in a new thread) any links or teaching material on the Zohar and how they believe in Messiah. Your second paragraph is of particular interest to me.

Many thanks and may the Lord continue to bless you.

 

[sojeru]

The Only thing I can post up concerning Kabbalah is what they have written in the Zohar.
Thing is- Orthodox Jews, if they believe in messiah they will not speak about him at all to the Jewish community-UNLESS they are asked.
When they are asked if they believe in Messiah they WILL NOT deny him- but they are secret about it.
So the most stringint of orthodox jews who are in Kabbalah keep it secret- I know that there are some sites that are kabalah and only SHOW a connection with "christianity"- but they wont say directly that they believe.
Yet, it is written in Zohar about the Three Fold Holiness of HaShem
"One is known as YHWH one is known as Ru'ach, And One is known as YHWH."
the zohar, i believe, is not online- so thats the hard part for people who are not orthodox Jew nor for people who recognize its authority.

shalom u'bracha my friend- everything is somewhat ok by myside but going as HaShem plans.
I pray things are well with you.

shalom u'bracha

Ps I wonder how stillsmallvoice is doing

 

[SonWorshipper]

Hmm, wish he would take a pop in here sometime.

 

[Lotuspetal_uk]

The Only thing I can post up concerning Kabbalah is what they have written in the Zohar.
Thing is- Orthodox Jews, if they believe in messiah they will not speak about him at all to the Jewish community-UNLESS they are asked.
When they are asked if they believe in Messiah they WILL NOT deny him- but they are secret about it.
So the most stringint of orthodox jews who are in Kabbalah keep it secret- I know that there are some sites that are kabalah and only SHOW a connection with "christianity"- but they wont say directly that they believe.
Yet, it is written in Zohar about the Three Fold Holiness of HaShem
"One is known as YHWH one is known as Ru'ach, And One is known as YHWH."
the zohar, i believe, is not online- so thats the hard part for people who are not orthodox Jew nor for people who recognize its authority.

shalom u'bracha my friend- everything is somewhat ok by myside but going as HaShem plans.
I pray things are well with you.

shalom u'bracha

Ps I wonder how stillsmallvoice is doing

Thank you again friend. This is what I've found - I tried to do a search for information on it online, but was not successful.

God bless

Ps I was thinking the same thing about stillsmallvoice the other day. I would love for him to pay a visit in here also.