Let's talk about the Trinity

[SonWorshipper]

There seems to be a need to discuss the Trinity, and rather than have the Is Yeshua YWHW thread derailed I have split off the posts that address the trinity, because this is a side issue to that thread.

Please keep all forum rules in mind please.

Thank You

 

[lared]

When one considers the works or the fruits of those great religious institutions that worship a trinity god.....one can only be repelled.

"By their fruits you will recognize them."- saith the Lord.

Throughout history......since the death of the apostles......and the degeneration of Christianity....much blood has been sown.

So-called christian has killed so-called christian.

During WWII German Lutherans and German Catholics killed American Lutherans and American Catholics.

During the American Civil War.... Southern Baptist has killed Northern Bapitst.

Think of what the German trinity worshipers did to
the Jews during the Holocaust.

The history of trinity worshipers is mired in blood and affliction.

Who would want to be part of such religious institutions!?!

 

[The Thadman]

When one considers the works or the fruits of those great religious institutions that worship a trinity god.....one can only be repelled.

"By their fruits you will recognize them."- saith the Lord.

Throughout history......since the death of the apostles......and the degeneration of Christianity....much blood has been sown.

So-called christian has killed so-called christian.

During WWII German Lutherans and German Catholics killed American Lutherans and American Catholics.

During the American Civil War.... Southern Baptist has killed Northern Bapitst.

Think of what the German trinity worshipers did to
the Jews during the Holocaust.

The history of trinity worshipers is mired in blood and affliction.


Who would want to be part of such religious institutions!?!

"By their fruits you will recognize them."- says the Lord. You're 100% right. And by your fruits I can see that you're out to judge. Did this word come to you from God, or did it only come from you?

God's Church is not any institution. Nor is it an institution.

And to stand by the very words of Paul, "Jesus IS Lord YHWH." (Romans 10:9, 10:10, 1 Corinthians 12:3)



Shlomo,
--
Steve Caruso
(a.k.a. "The Thadman")

Webmaster & Author, AramaicNT.org
(http://www.AramaicNT.org)

Lead Programmer, eBethArke
(http://www.BethMardutho.org/eBethArke/)

Assistant to the Livingston College Dean of First Year Students
Rutgers University, NJ
(http://livingston.Rutgers.edu)

"The only thing that should be utterly liberal is cooking. To make a meal, you 'throw together whatever you can, because you can.' It's when this paradigm is applied to other things, --oh... such as government or sex-- that I cringe." - Steve-o

 

[Sabian]

trinities. Ra, Isis, Osiris
Brahma,Shiva, Krishna
Baal, Semiramis, Tammuz
Bel, Ishtar,Duzu
Zeus, Demeter, Porephene
Apollo, Athena,Nike
In Japan, San Pao Fuh means one deity three forums
The trinity is rooted in many forms of pagan worship.

 

[The Thadman]

trinities.
(1) Ra, Isis, Osiris
(2) Brahma,Shiva, Krishna
(3) Baal, Semiramis, Tammuz
(4) Bel, Ishtar,Duzu
(5) Zeus, Demeter, Porephene
(6) Apollo, Athena,Nike
(7) In Japan, San Pao Fuh means one deity three forums
The trinity is rooted in many forms of pagan worship.

All 7 of those are not Trinities

1, 2, 3, 4, 5, and 6 are three separate gods.
7 is one deity in three forms only one capable of manifestation at a time, not one deity existing simultaneously in three facets.

This only shows that you do not comprehend the abstract concept of a trinity.

Shlomo,

 

[KelsayDL]

Belief in the trinity is not my salvation.

Faith in Yeshua is.

I'm an auto mechanic. I struggle hard enough with faith that I'll be able to feed my kids every month. I'm defianately not going to struggle with the nature of God.

One thing I do know is, those of us who would make the issue of paramount importance had better hope they are correct when they define the nature of God.

I've seen those on both sides of the fence say that either you must believe in the trinity or you are lost, and vice versa.

God never said either.

I neither reject it nor accept it. I simply believe the scriptures are insuffient when it comes to defining the exact nature of God, and refuse to make it a salvational issue. For if I were wrong, what words would the father have for me on that day?

 

[mtown]

please read the following as I am reading that there is a terrible misunderstanding of Christianity.

http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/ANF-01/anf01-48.htm#P4043_787325

and

http://www.myriobiblos.gr/texts/english/pap_spirit.html

 

[SonWorshipper]

Good Grief! I split this off from another thread that was being derailed by the subject of trinity and now the subject of Trinity is being derailed.So I have split off the posts that were discussing Aramaic into its own thread.

Let's All PLEASE stay on the topic of Trinity Thank You!

 

[SonWorshipper]

please read the following as I am reading that there is a terrible misunderstanding of Christianity.

http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/ANF-01/anf01-48.htm#P4043_787325

and

http://www.myriobiblos.gr/texts/english/pap_spirit.html

Hi there Mtown!

I see that you are new to Christian Forums, and was wondering if you realized that you posted in the Messianic Judaism Forum? If so, what "terrible misunderstanding of Christianity" do you think that we have?

The site you posted are words from Justin Martyr, hardly a crusader for the Jewish cause. From what I can see many of his "talks" or writings are extremly Anti-Jewish, the only thing that is Jewish that I haven't seen him trash is Yeshua himself ( who still remains Jewish). But again what does that have to do with the Trinity?

Justin:"Then is it Jacob the patriarch in whom the Gentiles and yourselves shall trust? or is it not Christ? As, therefore, Christ is the Israel and the Jacob, even so we, who have been quarried out from the bowels of Christ, are the true Israelitic race."

I seriously doubt that upon hearing this that "Trypho, a Jew" ever even considered "converting to Christianity". Not very poetic to say the least and more importantly, wrong.

 

[mtown]

Justin Martyr in the the statement that you chose to quote and highlight, is stating that Christians have become the inheritors of the "People of God."

I do want to sound antagonistic here, but did you read the other article I posted? One of the problems as I was reading in this thread, is a complete lack of understanding of the Holy Trinity. I posted both articles because one is devoted to the Holy Spirit, and the other is devoted to Jesus Christ. If one wants to seriously understand the Trinity, one should read St. Basil's book on the Holy Spirit.

 

[SonWorshipper]

No, he said that Christians were the "true Israelic race".

One does not become a "race" when believing, if so what race do Jews become when believing in their own Messiah?

AFA the other article? by St. John Chrysostom


This is all I can stomach from that man, thank you:

"The synagogue is worse than a brothel…it is the den of scoundrels and the repair of wild beasts…the temple of demons devoted to idolatrous cults…the refuge of brigands and dabauchees, and the cavern of devils. It is a criminal assembly of Jews…a place of meeting for the assassins of Christ… a house worse than a drinking shop…a den of thieves, a house of ill fame, a dwelling of iniquity, the refuge of devils, a gulf and a abyss of perdition."…"I would say the same things about their souls… As for me, I hate the synagogue…I hate the Jews for the same reason."
- John Chrysostom (344-407 A.D.)

 

[mtown]

More articles concerning the Holy Trinity,

http://www.myriobiblos.gr/texts/english/voulgaris_trinity.html

http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/ANF-06/anf06-16.htm#P878_241475

and finally, St. Basil's writings on the Holy Spirit.

http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/NPNF2-08/Npnf2-08-06.htm#P1123_256929

 

[GJG]

No, he said that Christians were the "true Israelic race".

One does not become a "race" when believing, if so what race do Jews become when believing in their own Messiah?

AFA the other article? by St. John Chrysostom


This is all I can stomach from that man, thank you:

"The synagogue is worse than a brothel…it is the den of scoundrels and the repair of wild beasts…the temple of demons devoted to idolatrous cults…the refuge of brigands and dabauchees, and the cavern of devils. It is a criminal assembly of Jews…a place of meeting for the assassins of Christ… a house worse than a drinking shop…a den of thieves, a house of ill fame, a dwelling of iniquity, the refuge of devils, a gulf and a abyss of perdition."…"I would say the same things about their souls… As for me, I hate the synagogue…I hate the Jews for the same reason."



That guy sounds racist!?




















- John Chrysostom (344-407 A.D.)

 

[GJG]

OOPS!

sumthing went rong wit my last post. Sorry

 

[GJG]

The basic problem is that trinitarianism is a non- scriptural doctrine that contradicts a number of biblical teachings and many specific verses of scripture. Also, the most obvious internal contradiction is how there can be three persons of God in any meaningful sense and yet there be only one God.
Here is compiled a number of other contradictions and problems associated with trinitarianism. Note: This list is not exhaustive but it does give an idea of how much the doctrine deviates from the Bible.
1. Did Jesus have two fathers? The father is the father of the son (1John1:3), yet the child born of Mary was conceived of the Holy Ghost Matt1:18,20; Luke1:35. Which one is the true father? Some Trinitarians claim that the Holy Ghost was merely the father’s agent in conception-a process they compare to artificial insemination!
2. How many spirits are there? God the father is a Spirit John4:24, the Lord Jesus is a Spirit 2Cor3:17 and the Holy Spirit is Spirit by definition. Yet there is one Spirit 1Cor12:13; Eph4:4
3. If Father and Son are co-equal persons, why did Jesus pray to the Father? Matt11:25. Can God pray to God?
4. Similarly, how can the Son not know as much as the Father? Matt24:36; Mark13:32.
5. Similarly, how can the Son not have any power except what the Father gives Him? John5:19,30; 6:38.
6. Similarly, what about other verses from scripture indicating the inequality of the Son and the Father? John8:42; 14:28; 1Cor11:3.
7. Did ‘God the Son’ die? The Bible shows that the Son died Rom5:10. If so, can God die? Can part of God die?
8. How can there be an eternal Son when the Son was clearly ‘begotten’, indicating an obvious beginning John3:16; Heb1:5-6.
9. If the Son is eternal and existed at creation, who was His mother during that time? The Son was made of a woman Gal4:4.
10. Did ‘God the Son’ surrender His omnipresence while on earth? If so, how could He still be God?
11. If the Son is eternal and immutable (unchanging), how can the reign of the Son have a ending? 1Cor15:24-28.
12. Whom do we worship and to whom do we pray? Jesus said to worship the Father John4:21-24, yet Stephen prayed to Jesus Acts7:59-60.
13. Can there be more than three persons in the Godhead? Obviously the OT does not teach three, but emphasizes the simple fact that there is only one.
14. Are there three Spirits in a Christian’s heart? Father, Jesus, and the Spirit all dwell within a Christian John14:17,23; Rom8:9; Eph3:14-17. Yet there is only one Spirit 1Cor12:13; Eph4:4.
15. There is only one throne in heaven Rev4:2. Who sits upon it? Jesus does Rev1:8,18; 4:8. Where do the Father and the Holy Spirit sit?
16. If Jesus is seated on the throne, how can He sit on the right hand of God? Mark16:19. Does He sit or stand on the right hand of God? Acts7:55. Or is He in the Fathers bosom? John1:18.
17. How is Jesus part of the Godhead, when clearly the Godhead is in Jesus? Col2:9.
18. Given Matt 28:19, why did the apostles consistently baptize both Jews and Gentiles using only the name of Jesus, even to the extent of rebaptism?Acts2:38; 8:16; 10:48; 19:5; 22:16; 1Cor1:13.
19. Who raised Jesus from the dead? Did the Father Eph1:20, or Jesus John2:19-21, or the Spirit? Rom8:11.
20. If the Son and Holy Ghost are co-equal persons in the Godhead, then why is blasphemy of the Holy Ghost unforgivable but blasphemy of the Son is not? Luke12:10.
21. If the Holy Ghost is a co-equal member of the trinity, why does the Bible always show the Him being sent from the Father or from Jesus? John14:26; 15:26.
22. If they are co-equal, why does the Holy Ghost not know what the Father knows regarding the return of Christ Mark13:32.
23. If the Spirit proceeds from the Father, is the Spirit also a son of the Father? If not, why not?
24. If the Spirit proceeds from the Son, is the Spirit the grandson of the Father? If not, why not?......................and so on…………….and so on!

I believe that trinitarinism is not a biblical doctrine and that it plainly contradicts the Bible in many ways. Scripture does not teach a trinity of persons. Trinity doctrine uses terminology not used in scripture. It teaches and emphasizes plurality in the Godhead while the Bible emphasizes the fact that God is one and only one. It detracts from the fullness of Jesus Christ’s Deity. It contradicts many specific verses of scripture. It is not logical. It cannot be explained rationally, not even by those who advocate it.

 

[SonWorshipper]

The L-rd is One ( echad) but manifests himself in three ways. The Spirit of G-d is the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of Yeshua Is the Holy Spirit, they share the same Spirit.

G-d had to come ( to lower himself) so that he could be a sacrifice, experience in a human way death, so that we might live. For that is G-d's law. The penelty for sin is death. He loved us so much that He took that penalty, everyones, and paid the price. He could only do this in the form of a human.

But this is where most are confused. He is no longer that same perfect human, but the risen L-rd G-d.

This is what He showed to me back in the Spring, around Passover time, that He is now G-d in full, G-d the Father.

When He said that He didn't know ( nor the angels) when He would return it was because He had not risen to heaven in completion of His mission yet. Therefore that knowledge was kept from Him, but now in heaven ( and since that time 10 days before Shavuot) He has know because He is now fully and completely G-d again. This is seen in Revelation ( where He not only reveals things to come but also things which "ARE") and He reveals who he is then ( when John wrote this) and now!

See my thread on "Is Yeshua YHWH?"

 

[sojeru]

oh well,
trinity?

well in zohar it says it well concerning b'resheet and sepher Daniel
In sepher daniel it says that Hashem is TWO in aramaic
And in b'resheet it says haShem is 3
he MINIFESTS himself in that way at ONE TIME not seperately as in the other is not there when he does this.

shalom u'bracha

PS I suggest that you all get the Orthodox Jewish Bible

 

[mtown]

It seems that no one has read the articles that I posted about the Trinity and the Holy Spirit. If you did then there still wouldn't be this terrible misconception about it! Should I post them again?

In Christ,

Miltiadis

 

[The Thadman]

Before I do anything else here, PLEASE I BEG of you not to use cut and paste arguments that have been refuted many times before.

1. Did Jesus have two fathers? The father is the father of the son (1John1:3), yet the child born of Mary was conceived of the Holy Ghost Matt1:18,20; Luke1:35. Which one is the true father? Some Trinitarians claim that the Holy Ghost was merely the father’s agent in conception-a process they compare to artificial insemination!

Er, sorry The Holy Ghost, as you'll remember is the Spirit of YHWH, so it WAS YHWH who conceived Jesus.

2. How many spirits are there? God the father is a Spirit John4:24, the Lord Jesus is a Spirit 2Cor3:17 and the Holy Spirit is Spirit by definition. Yet there is one Spirit 1Cor12:13; Eph4:4

You're inserting an "a" infront of God the Father. YHWH is spirit, not a spirit (adjective, not noun). This fixes that problem, that wasn't really a problem.

3. If Father and Son are co-equal persons, why did Jesus pray to the Father? Matt11:25. Can God pray to God?

This isn't an issue of God praying to God. What is so difficult to comprehend in terms of an option that God, since he exists outside of our dimensions, can have more than one simultaneous stream of consciousness as we perceive consciousness?

Plus, when he made a facet of himself man, what's wrong with praying? This is irrelevant

4. Similarly, how can the Son not know as much as the Father? Matt24:36; Mark13:32.
5. Similarly, how can the Son not have any power except what the Father gives Him? John5:19,30; 6:38.
6. Similarly, what about other verses from scripture indicating the inequality of the Son and the Father? John8:42; 14:28; 1Cor11:3.

See above. You're just not an abstract thinker. ("You're not thinking 4th dimensionally!" -Doc Brown, Back to the Future)

7. Did ‘God the Son’ die? The Bible shows that the Son died Rom5:10. If so, can God die? Can part of God die?

He didn't really die, now did he? Who appeared to the apostles with holes in his hands and side?

8. How can there be an eternal Son when the Son was clearly ‘begotten’, indicating an obvious beginning John3:16; Heb1:5-6.

Using the Westcott Hort text, eh?

9. If the Son is eternal and existed at creation, who was His mother during that time? The Son was made of a woman Gal4:4.

He would have either had to "snap his fingers" and come up with a human vessel that way, or have someone grow one. Mary was picked for that job to fulfill prophesy.

10. Did ‘God the Son’ surrender His omnipresence while on earth? If so, how could He still be God?

Firstoff, it's not "God the Son", there's just GOD. One YHWH, 3 facets. If I took a vow of silence for a month, am I still human?

11. If the Son is eternal and immutable (unchanging), how can the reign of the Son have a ending? 1Cor15:24-28.

Reread those passages and put them in context

12. Whom do we worship and to whom do we pray? Jesus said to worship the Father John4:21-24, yet Stephen prayed to Jesus Acts7:59-60.

We worship YHWH. The angels proclaimed Jesus as "The Messiah Lord YHWH" at his birth in Luke. Paul proclaimed if you confess with your mouth that "Jesus is Lord YHWH."

13. Can there be more than three persons in the Godhead? Obviously the OT does not teach three, but emphasizes the simple fact that there is only one.

It shows many facets of YHWH. Not to mention that His main title is plural, and that he has manifested himself in more than one place at the same time (YHWH in heaven and YHWH on earth raining down at the same time?).

14. Are there three Spirits in a Christian’s heart? Father, Jesus, and the Spirit all dwell within a Christian John14:17,23; Rom8:9; Eph3:14-17. Yet there is only one Spirit 1Cor12:13; Eph4:4.

There is only one Spirit. I tackled this one already.

15. There is only one throne in heaven Rev4:2. Who sits upon it? Jesus does Rev1:8,18; 4:8. Where do the Father and the Holy Spirit sit?

See further above. There is ONE YHWH. The Father, the Son and the Spirit are merely "facets" (for lack of a better term) of him. If a stone is missing but one facet, it does not shine.

16. If Jesus is seated on the throne, how can He sit on the right hand of God? Mark16:19. Does He sit or stand on the right hand of God? Acts7:55. Or is He in the Fathers bosom? John1:18.

Again, problems with abstract thinking.

17. How is Jesus part of the Godhead, when clearly the Godhead is in Jesus? Col2:9.

Because Jesus is Lord YHWH Messiah as verbatim what the angels proclaimed.

18. Given Matt 28:19, why did the apostles consistently baptize both Jews and Gentiles using only the name of Jesus, even to the extent of rebaptism?Acts2:38; 8:16; 10:48; 19:5; 22:16; 1Cor1:13.

They also baptized in the name (singular) of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit (YHWH ).

19. Who raised Jesus from the dead? Did the Father Eph1:20, or Jesus John2:19-21, or the Spirit? Rom8:11.

All three facets are ONE (SINGULAR) entity.

20. If the Son and Holy Ghost are co-equal persons in the Godhead, then why is blasphemy of the Holy Ghost unforgivable but blasphemy of the Son is not? Luke12:10.

I'm honestly not 100% sure as to the whole co-equal doctrine. I don't even pay it any mind.

21. If the Holy Ghost is a co-equal member of the trinity, why does the Bible always show the Him being sent from the Father or from Jesus? John14:26; 15:26.

And sometimes he comes on his own It is YHWH's Spirit.

22. If they are co-equal, why does the Holy Ghost not know what the Father knows regarding the return of Christ Mark13:32.

I don't see YHWH's spirit mentioned here.

23. If the Spirit proceeds from the Father, is the Spirit also a son of the Father? If not, why not?

You're using "proceeds" as an equivocation. The Spirit is YHWH's Spirit.

24. If the Spirit proceeds from the Son, is the Spirit the grandson of the Father? If not, why not?......................and so on…………….and so on!

This is nonsensical YHWH is YHWH, 'nuff said

I believe that trinitarinism is not a biblical doctrine and that it plainly contradicts the Bible in many ways. Scripture does not teach a trinity of persons. Trinity doctrine uses terminology not used in scripture.

#1: Tell me where the word "Bible" is in the Bible... HA! You can't! The Bible is unbiblical

#2: Actually, the Bible does use terminology you claim it doesn't. In the Aramaic of John 1:1: "b-resheeth eethauee -wo MELTHO". The Greek translated "Meltho" as "Logos" or "Word." Meltho means "word," yes, but also "manifestation," and "facet," among others.

It teaches and emphasizes plurality in the Godhead while the Bible emphasizes the fact that God is one and only one.

Elohim is in the plural. YHWH manifests in more than one place at the same time in the OT:

"Then YHWH rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone; and fire from YHWH out of heaven;' (Genesis 19:24)

It detracts from the fullness of Jesus Christ’s Deity. It contradicts many specific verses of scripture. It is not logical. It cannot be explained rationally, not even by those who advocate it.

I think we've covered that.

Shlomo,
-Steve-o

 

[drmmjr]

G-d had to come ( to lower himself) so that he could be a sacrifice, experience in a human way death, so that we might live. For that is G-d's law. The penelty for sin is death. He loved us so much that He took that penalty, everyones, and paid the price. He could only do this in the form of a human.

Romans 5:18- Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
19- For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

Adam, a man, was disobediant to God and sinned, so it would take someone, Jesus, a man, who would be obdient to God to remove that sin. God didn't cause the events that lead to sin.