Lets talk about the supposed vow of chastity of Mary

[CaliforniaJosiah]

What conversations have you had with Joseph that indicated such to you?


Odd, because as a man, I think the EXACT OPPOSITE would be true.... how much MORE would I love her, honor her and want to give to her. I'd feel differently if she had rejected God's will, but not because she embraced it. Odd. Very odd.


But in any case, how do you KNOW - to the point of highest certainty of truth - dogma - that Joseph felt this (very odd) way you think he did? Where's your evidence? Or is this pure, baseless, entirely unsubstantiated (and odd) speculation on your part?


.

" When they came to the threshing floor of Nakon, Uzzah reached out and took hold of the ark of God, because the oxen stumbled. 7 The LORD’s anger burned against Uzzah because of his irreverent act; therefore God struck him down, and he died there beside the ark of God."

This is the conversation that Joseph had with Kathy?




.

 

[Incariol]

This is the conversation that Joseph had

I'm sure you can figure it out.

 

[narnia59]

Are you suggesting that a married person can't have undivided devotion to the Lord because they have sex?

I don't have to 'suggest it' -- St. Paul wrote it. Once again, 1 Corinthians 7

32 I want you to be free from anxieties. The unmarried man is anxious about the affairs of the Lord, how to please the Lord; 33 but the married man is anxious about worldly affairs, how to please his wife, 34 and his interests are divided. And the unmarried woman or girl is anxious about the affairs of the Lord, how to be holy in body and spirit; but the married woman is anxious about worldly affairs, how to please her husband. 35 I say this for your own benefit, not to lay any restraint upon you, but to promote good order and to secure your undivided devotion to the Lord.

In other words, married people have wordly concerns with pleasing each other, their interests are DIVIDED, which prevents them from having UNDIVIDED devotion to the Lord.

Which he follows up with his statement that if a man could control his passions, it was fine to keep a woman as his 'betrothed' -- in other words, not to consummate the relationship. But as his 'betrothed' the bond was legal, he was still responsible for her, and would require a divorce to separate.

36 If any one thinks that he is not behaving properly toward his betrothed, if his passions are strong, and it has to be, let him do as he wishes: let them marry--it is no sin. 37 But whoever is firmly established in his heart, being under no necessity but having his desire under control, and has determined this in his heart, to keep her as his betrothed, he will do well. 38 So that he who marries his betrothed does well; and he who refrains from marriage will do better.


And the reason one who refrains from marriage (consummation) with his betrothed will "do better" -- they can have UNDIVIDED devotion to the Lord.

I'm not sure how anyone can try to make the case that it is unreasonable, un-Biblical, un-natural, or un-whatever-you-want-to-try-to-make-it for Mary and Joseph to not have consummated their relationship since St. Paul clearly leaves room for such an arrangement in his instructions on marriage. That people have such a difficult time considering the possibility is a reflection of our sex-is-the-be-all-and-end-all-everything culture we live in, not the Bible.

 

[Dorothea]

Joseph and Mary were/are holy people very dedicated to God. Joseph was much older than Mary in the first place, and had grown children. Mary was a mere teen who spent all her life in the Temple because Anna told God that whether she had a boy or a girl, she would dedicate the child to Him, which she did.

Neither Mary nor Joseph were interested in marriage in that sense. Joseph married her to protect her and take care of her. Mary consented. Both, as I said, were holy and past the needs of the worldly. They had transcended that, especially after the personal encounter with God.

 

[washedagain]

She got engaged so she wouldn't be stoned to death.

Nope...she was already engaged.

26 In the sixth month of Elizabeth’s pregnancy, God sent the angel Gabriel to Nazareth, a town in Galilee, 27 to a virgin pledged to be married to a man named Joseph, a descendant of David. The virgin’s name was Mary. 28 The angel went to her and said, “Greetings, you who are highly favored! The Lord is with you.”

 

[washedagain]

=Dorothea;58160598]Joseph and Mary were/are holy people very dedicated to God. Joseph was much older than Mary in the first place, and had grown children.

Proof please.

Mary was a mere teen who spent all her life in the Temple because Anna told God that whether she had a boy or a girl, she would dedicate the child to Him, which she did.

Proof please

Joseph married her to protect her and take care of her. Mary consented. Both, as I said, were holy and past the needs of the worldly. They had transcended that, especially after the personal encounter with God.

Proof please.

I am really interested in this vow thingy.

 

[washedagain]

=narnia59;58160554]I don't have to 'suggest it' -- St. Paul wrote it. Once again, 1 Corinthians 7

32 I want you to be free from anxieties. The unmarried man is anxious about the affairs of the Lord, how to please the Lord; 33 but the married man is anxious about worldly affairs, how to please his wife, 34 and his interests are divided. And the unmarried woman or girl is anxious about the affairs of the Lord, how to be holy in body and spirit; but the married woman is anxious about worldly affairs, how to please her husband. 35 I say this for your own benefit, not to lay any restraint upon you, but to promote good order and to secure your undivided devotion to the Lord.

paul is speaking about why it is good to not marry... does not apply to Mary as she was engaged.

 

[narnia59]

Nope...she was already engaged.

26 In the sixth month of Elizabeth’s pregnancy, God sent the angel Gabriel to Nazareth, a town in Galilee, 27 to a virgin pledged to be married to a man named Joseph, a descendant of David. The virgin’s name was Mary. 28 The angel went to her and said, “Greetings, you who are highly favored! The Lord is with you.”

And if Joseph had divorced her as he initially planned, she would have been stoned to death for adultery.

Or if she had simply gotten pregnant without a husband, she would have been stoned to death for fornication.

Joseph was not needed to conceive the child, but he was of utmost importance in giving the child the legal lineage of King David and protecting Mary and Jesus from the culture.

 

[washedagain]

=narnia59;58162461]And if Joseph had divorced her as he initially planned, she would have been stoned to death for adultery.

Yes... your point?

Or if she had simply gotten pregnant without a husband, she would have been stoned to death for fornication.

Yes... your point?

Joseph was not needed to conceive the child, but he was of utmost importance in giving the child the legal lineage of King David and protecting Mary and Jesus from the culture.

Yes.... your point?

God picked a woman who was already engaged.

 

[narnia59]

Proof please.




Proof please



Proof please.

I am really interested in this vow thingy.

What do you think the vows a woman might take in Numbers 30 are referring to? Those by which she would "bind herself", and her father and/or husband would have such an interest in?

 

[narnia59]

Yes... your point?




Yes... your point?



Yes.... your point?

God picked a woman who was already engaged.

The point is that Joseph was quite an important part to God's plan.

God picked Mary from the beginning of time. He didn't wait for her to become engaged and then decide to choose her.

You have not responded to my posts about why Paul allows for such a condition to exist where a man would not consummate his relationship with his betrothed?

 

[LOCO]

I think it will be very interesting to examine this belief, where it originated from and any evidence of such a theory/teaching/belief/doctrine as being legit or true.

(not sure what the official position of the RCC is with this)

Mary was the Ark of the New Covenant, a Holy and Pure Vessel.

The Ark of the Old Covenant was built to exact dimensions, wood and the purest gold as requested by God as a holy vessel as it contained the most sacred artifacts in Jewish Salvation, the Word of God in Stone (the 10 Commandment, the Rod of Aaron the High Priest & Manna (Bread of Earthly Life).

Mary the Ark of the New Covenant was a holy vessel for the Living Word of God made flesh-Jesus, she carried the Eternal High Priest and the Bread of Eternal Life.


Have a look at this youtube clip it explains it a lot better than I.

‪The Truth About Mary and Scripture: MUST SEE!‬‏ - YouTube

 

[Dorothea]

Proof please.




Proof please



Proof please.

I am really interested in this vow thingy.

Christian history.

 

[Incariol]

Yes... your point?




Yes... your point?



Yes.... your point?

Her point is that you seem ignorant of the social context, to be quite honest. The most logical conclusions not that Mary and Joseph were wildly in love, but they didn't want Mary to die a horrific death at the hands of a mob.

This really isn't a difficult concept.

God picked a woman who was already engaged.

No, he didn't.

 

[narnia59]

paul is speaking about why it is good to not marry... does not apply to Mary as she was engaged.

What do you think "betrothed" means?

36 If any one thinks that he is not behaving properly toward his betrothed, if his passions are strong, and it has to be, let him do as he wishes: let them marry--it is no sin. 37 But whoever is firmly established in his heart, being under no necessity but having his desire under control, and has determined this in his heart, to keep her as his betrothed, he will do well. 38 So that he who marries his betrothed does well; and he who refrains from marriage will do better.

Those verses specifically apply to the relationship Mary and Joseph were in at the time of the conception of Jesus. St. Paul clearly indicates it is possible that a man would keep a woman as his "betrothed" -- as in not consummate their relationship. But keep her nonetheless.

 

[justinangel]

Thanks for the reply...

You're welcome, adelfe.

Now, show me that Mary DID do that as well as show cultural and biblical support of women making vows of Chastity to God all the while anticipating and actually becoming engaged to be married.

In ancient Judaism celibate marriages were uncommon, but not unheard of. We find examples of Jewish couples in the Essene community of Qumran, as indicated in the Dead Sea Scrolls, and the Therapeutae. I already showed you by citing Luke 1:34 that Mary intended to preserve her chastity in marriage, which is obvious by the astonishment she apparently showed when the angel told her "You will conceive and bear a son". When the same promise was given to Sarah, Hannah, and the Shummanite woman, they never exclaimed "How shall this be?". Like Mary they understood that they would conceive a child with their husbands in lawful wedlock. We may as well ask why Moses, although already married, remained continent for the rest of his life after God's command to abstain from sexual intercourse in anticipation of the Theophany on Mount Sinai (Ex 19:15). He didn't have to go the full length of the course. He committed himself entirely to God for the sake of his love and holiness after having communed with him on Mount Horeb. Mary was in close communion with God in the temple where she served him during her childhood until the age of thirteen.

Why would she get engaged? What Jewish girl would ever not consummate her marriage.. it goes against what the word of God says, Go forth and multiply... cleave to your spouse and become one. That is biblical... what is not biblical is to make a vow of chastity and get married...

The temple priests arranged the marriage according to the oral tradition drawn upon by the author of the Pseudo Gospel of James (A.D. 120). In Jewish society a single woman was frowned upon. Although an uninspired text, it relates what the Judeo-Christians believed about Mary at the time.

Goes against the word of God? According to Jewish tradition, all the prophets remained celibate after the word of God was communicated to them. See the Midrash Exodus Rabbah, 19 and Pesachim 87b, Babylonian Talmud for starters. Moses was denied seeing the promised land for having struck the rock more than once in a moment of unfaithfulness, not for having abstained from marital relations with his wife for the rest of his life. We are talking about some extraordinary Jews here, not the common lot. So exceptions to the norm can be made.

Jesus alluded to himself, his mother Mary, John the Baptist, the beloved disciple John, the apostle Paul and countless other followers of his when he affirmed in his infinite knowledge, "There are some who have made themselves Eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven." (Mt 19:12).

Thanks. Have a good day.

My pleasure. You, too.

Pax Christu
J.A.

 

[washedagain]

The point is that Joseph was quite an important part to God's plan.

God picked Mary from the beginning of time. He didn't wait for her to become engaged and then decide to choose her.

You have not responded to my posts about why Paul allows for such a condition to exist where a man would not consummate his relationship with his betrothed?

I am sorry... please post that scripture again.

 

[washedagain]

What do you think "betrothed" means?

36 If any one thinks that he is not behaving properly toward his betrothed, if his passions are strong, and it has to be, let him do as he wishes: let them marry--it is no sin. 37 But whoever is firmly established in his heart, being under no necessity but having his desire under control, and has determined this in his heart, to keep her as his betrothed, he will do well. 38 So that he who marries his betrothed does well; and he who refrains from marriage will do better.

Those verses specifically apply to the relationship Mary and Joseph were in at the time of the conception of Jesus. St. Paul clearly indicates it is possible that a man would keep a woman as his "betrothed" -- as in not consummate their relationship. But keep her nonetheless.

But the angel told Joe to MARRY her!!!! She did not stay betrothed but got married! In Jewish culture, what seals the marriage is the coming together and becoming one.... SEX, consummation.

 

[narnia59]

But the angel told Joe to MARRY her!!!! She did not stay betrothed but got married! In Jewish culture, what seals the marriage is the coming together and becoming one.... SEX, consummation.

The angel told Joseph to take Mary "gunaika" -- a generic word meaning woman. Wife is assumed in the translation. For example, in Matthew 5:28 the same word is translated as "woman" when Jesus states that to look at a woman with lust is the same as adultery. This obviously is not referring to a wife.

The angel doesn't tell him to marry her (much less seal the marriage), he tells him to 'take her' -- thereby providing the protection afforded to her in doing so. Marriage (gameó) is not mentioned. As Paul points out, keeping one as their 'betrothed' is indeed possible, and that does not eliminate the possibility of taking the betrothed into one's home and providing support. The father of the betrothed would likely insist upon it.

Please note that in Matthew 2:13 the angel does not tell Joseph to take his wife and child to Egypt. He tells him to take the child and his mother.

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

The angel told Joseph to take Mary "gunaika" -- a generic word meaning woman.

Okay. How does that substantiate to the level of greatest certainty (dogma) that ergo Mary Had NO Sex EVER?








.