Let's talk! About the new vision for CF!

[Redheadedstepchild]

Ok, well then everyone please go check the Wiki discussion and post your thoughts about whether or not you would like a debate forum, if any other rules are needed, and if you would like to have some kind of beliefs statement in the Wiki.

TY!!!

 

[GraceSeeker]

Ok, well then everyone please go check the Wiki discussion and post your thoughts about whether or not you would like a debate forum, if any other rules are needed, and if you would like to have some kind of beliefs statement in the Wiki.

TY!!!

I guess that leaves me out. I need another 70 posts to post in Wiki and I don't intend to post just for postings sake.

Also, if anyone finds my suggested belief statement worth being part of the discussion, http://www.christianforums.com/showpost.php?p=36646141&postcount=90, someone else is going to have to copy it and post it there as I can't.

 

[Sophia7]

Ok, well then everyone please go check the Wiki discussion and post your thoughts about whether or not you would like a debate forum, if any other rules are needed, and if you would like to have some kind of beliefs statement in the Wiki.

TY!!!

If you all decide that you want a debate subforum, you should read this wiki:
http://www.christianforums.com/t5677070-wiki-creation-of-a-new-congregational-forum.html

You can request a new forum in the Suggest New Forums area.

 

[Sophia7]

I don't intend to post just for postings sake.

I wouldn't either.

 

[humblet]

Well, I tried to post in wiki, but I guess I can't till I get to 100 posts. So, I guess I'll just take up space here.

It has been suggested by some that we do need some sort of statement. While I don't see the same need for it that others do, I am willing to contribute to the discussion if that is what is truly desired. Thus allow me to suggest the following for consideration. I think it is Wesleyan in character. While I doubt anything will be accept with unanimity, it might, nonetheless, be something around which we can find a great deal of concurance. I have constructed it using as a template many of the different denomination links provided in the wiki space, however it is not the statement of any one particular denomination. Thus, I must take full responsibility for its content, whether it is useful for our purposes or not.

Thanks for taking the time to write this all out It was pretty long, so I'm not quoting all that you wrote, but I think it's post #90. Thoughts everyone?

 

[Redheadedstepchild]

I guess that leaves me out. I need another 70 posts to post in Wiki and I don't intend to post just for postings sake.

Also, if anyone finds my suggested belief statement worth being part of the discussion, http://www.christianforums.com/showpost.php?p=36646141&postcount=90, someone else is going to have to copy it and post it there as I can't.

Why are you out? I can copy & paste your ideas there unless anyone has an objection.

 

[GraceSeeker]

I can copy & paste your ideas there unless anyone has an objection.

¡Muchas gracías!

 

[Redheadedstepchild]

¡Muchas gracías!

Ok! Let me know what else you would like to put up.

 

[hugheschase9]

i want to have a new CF!!!

 

[Diane_Windsor]

I just don't want anyone coming in here to tell us that our core beliefs are wrong. So maybe to that end we need to further define and list out what makes us Wesleyan (in a broad sense), so that people will understand when they come in what is not up for debate.

I agree with you. I think all congregational fora need to define their terms. Define the term "Wesleyan" for this forum.

My .02 cents . . .

 

[GraceSeeker]

I agree with you. I think all congregational fora need to define their terms. Define the term "Wesleyan" for this forum.

My .02 cents . . .

Wesleyan (adjective)

1. A person who adheres to the basic theological positions preached as part of the Wesleyan revival that occurred in England in the mid-1700s.

2. A follower of the tenets taught by John Wesley.

3. Of or pertaining to the Wesleys (John and Charles).

4. A member of the Wesleyan Church.

 

[Redheadedstepchild]

Wesleyan (adjective)

1. A person who adheres to the basic theological positions preached as part of the Wesleyan revival that occurred in England in the mid-1700s.

2. A follower of the tenets taught by John Wesley.

3. Of or pertaining to the Wesleys (John and Charles).

4. A member of the Wesleyan Church.

added to the wiki discussion.

 

[Sophia7]

Beyond the definitions, you're going to need to start making some concrete decisions on whether you want to create a debate sub-forum. As I recall, the consensus was moving toward that. So far your rules are similar to how they were before, which is fine, but the sub-forum idea has not been settled yet. As it is, it will be hard to enforce any rules in the congregational areas until their forum-specific rules are solidified.

As I understand it, the plan is to leave the wiki open for a week or two until the rules are pretty well formulated and everyone who wants to has had a chance to contribute. Then you can create a poll and take a vote from your members to approve the new rules. If you haven't done so already, you may want to take a look at some of the other congregational wikis to see how they are writing their rules. It could give you some ideas about any additional things you may want to add to your rules.

It would probably also be good to add something about voting on the rules being allowed only by Wesleyans.

 

[humblet]

Yes, I had a question about that. How are we going to know who is a member/ who is allowed to vote? Will people have to 'sign up' so to speak and say this is their congregational forum? Will there be a list of members kept somewhere? Just wondering how that is supposed to work.....

 

[Sophia7]

Yes, I had a question about that. How are we going to know who is a member/ who is allowed to vote? Will people have to 'sign up' so to speak and say this is their congregational forum? Will there be a list of members kept somewhere? Just wondering how that is supposed to work.....

I think you can decide that. You could start a voter-registration thread, I suppose, and require people to sign up ahead of time in order to have their vote counted. Another option would be to just state the requirement in the wiki and trust that people are who they say they are when they vote. You could go by icons, but not everyone has a denomination-specific icon. You probably know who your regular posters are, and you could check the votes and discount any that are obviously done by non-Wesleyans. You could also require a minimum number of posts in order to be eligible to vote or something. It's up to you. (Some of these ideas could be applied to voting on moderators when the time comes, too.)

I wouldn't expect too many people to try to taint your poll. This is a pretty quiet forum, and you all are fairly agreeable . Some congregational forums are going through a much more contentious process of forming rules (my own, for example ).

 

[GraceSeeker]

I think you can decide that. You could start a voter-registration thread, I suppose, and require people to sign up ahead of time in order to have their vote counted. Another option would be to just state the requirement in the wiki and trust that people are who they say they are when they vote. You could go by icons, but not everyone has a denomination-specific icon. You probably know who your regular posters are, and you could check the votes and discount any that are obviously done by non-Wesleyans. You could also require a minimum number of posts in order to be eligible to vote or something. It's up to you. (Some of these ideas could be applied to voting on moderators when the time comes, too.)

I wouldn't expect too many people to try to taint your poll. This is a pretty quiet forum, and you all are fairly agreeable . Some congregational forums are going through a much more contentious process of forming rules (my own, for example ).

Personally, I like the idea of using icons.

When you say that not everyone has a denomination-specific icon, I am assuming the problem is that there are is no way to design a new icon for all 342,729 different denominations in the world. Is there a way to create an icon specific to each congregational forum? Then we could just require that one "registers" by being willing to use our Wesely Parish icon if they don't use an icon from a list of the recognized Wesleyan denominations.

 

[humblet]

I think that the Lutheran denominational forum has done a wonderful job regarding the new "rules". I especially appreciate how they were able to clarify who is eligible to be a "full" member of their congregational forum as well as how those members will be identified:

"2. Generally full members will be members of a Lutheran or Moravian congregation, but realizing that that is not always possible, there might be some who are Lutheran who do not belong for whatever reason to such a congregation. Note that a Lutheran congregation doesn't have to have Lutheran in it's name.

These individuals who are Lutheran without belonging to a Lutheran congregation, will however have certain characteristics.
A. They will uphold the Apostles, Nicene, and Anthansian Creeds.
B. They will hold to the Augsburg Confession as a true confession of biblical truths.
C. They will hold the five solas as they were originally formulated.
a. sola Scriptura, scripture alone, the books of the New and Old Testament in the Bible are the sole rule and norm of faith.

b. sola Gracia, grace alone, we are saved totally by the grace of God and man cannot contribute or cooperate in his justification.

c. sola Fida, faith alone, we are saved through faith, and not by works.

d. solus Christus, Christ alone, we are saved totally for the glory and by the works of Christ.

e. soli Deo Gloria, glory to God alone. The purpose of everything is and totally shall be the glory of God.

It is asked that full members either display through their icons (either outwardly exposed or identifying Lutheran in some way when a cursor hovers over the faith icon) or put something identifying themselves as such somewhere such as in their signature line in order to help the moderators of the forum."

If you'd like to see the rest of what they've done (perhaps we'd like to model ours similarly?) read here: http://www.christianforums.com/t5672534-wiki-theologia-crucis-lutherans-tcl.html

 

[GraceSeeker]

I think that the Lutheran denominational forum has done a wonderful job regarding the new "rules". I especially appreciate how they were able to clarify who is eligible to be a "full" member of their congregational forum as well as how those members will be identified:

"2. Generally full members will be members of a Lutheran or Moravian congregation, but realizing that that is not always possible, there might be some who are Lutheran who do not belong for whatever reason to such a congregation. Note that a Lutheran congregation doesn't have to have Lutheran in it's name.

These individuals who are Lutheran without belonging to a Lutheran congregation, will however have certain characteristics.
A. They will uphold the Apostles, Nicene, and Anthansian Creeds.
B. They will hold to the Augsburg Confession as a true confession of biblical truths.
C. They will hold the five solas as they were originally formulated.
a. sola Scriptura, scripture alone, the books of the New and Old Testament in the Bible are the sole rule and norm of faith.

b. sola Gracia, grace alone, we are saved totally by the grace of God and man cannot contribute or cooperate in his justification.

c. sola Fida, faith alone, we are saved through faith, and not by works.

d. solus Christus, Christ alone, we are saved totally for the glory and by the works of Christ.

e. soli Deo Gloria, glory to God alone. The purpose of everything is and totally shall be the glory of God.

It is asked that full members either display through their icons (either outwardly exposed or identifying Lutheran in some way when a cursor hovers over the faith icon) or put something identifying themselves as such somewhere such as in their signature line in order to help the moderators of the forum."

If you'd like to see the rest of what they've done (perhaps we'd like to model ours similarly?) read here: http://www.christianforums.com/t5672534-wiki-theologia-crucis-lutherans-tcl.html

There is some good stuff there. There is also some stuff I disagree with. For instance "people who are not full members [of the Lutheran congregational forum] may ask questions and indeed even debate". While I think we ought to be open to questions, I think debate ought to be limited to the proposed sub-forum. Otherwise you are going to have a potential for trolls. The Lutherans plan to let their mods decide when someone has crossed the line, but that means mods will have to make that determination on a case by case basis making the line hard to define and resulting in people actually crossing it (though perhaps unintentionally) before something can be done. I think that by simply saying "NO" to outside debate except in a subforum we should provide, that we can avoid what I see as a potential problem.

If creating a viable and functioning subforum were to become an issue, I also see an alternative, that is the creation of a couple of threads specifically for non-Wesleyans to ask their questions in and carry on extended debate, but that they couldn't take that debate to other threads within the forum. For example, I am a member of a Muslim forum where I have a thread "Things in Islam I am curious about..." The members there have allowed me to ask about anything I wish without taking offense to it. There is also a thread, "Questions about Judaism answered by Jew" that is probably the most active thread on this Muslim forum. Several rabbis participate in it, but the Muslim moderators are very careful to make sure that only Jews provide answers in that thread so as to keep unproductive debate from closing the thread.

 

[Redheadedstepchild]

I like what the Lutherans have done. I also like how the Calvanists have theirs set up. It seems very clear and consise to me...and they have provisions for separate areas for debating and asking questions. Take a look:

Wiki: Semper Reformanda

A. Membership
1. To be considered a member of the Semper Reformanda forum with full posting privileges, including the right to debate, you must adhere to the doctrine set forth in The Apostles’ Creed, Nicene Creed, Athanasian Creed and the Definition of Chalcedon and at least one of the following:


I. Articles of Religion (Anglican)
II. London Baptist Confession of 1646 or 1689 (Baptist)
III. Savoy Declaration (Congregational/Independent)
IV. Second Helvetic Confession (Reformed)
V. The Goat Yard Declaration of Faith (Baptist)
VI. The Gospel Standard Articles of Faith (Baptist)
VII. Three Forms of Unity (Reformed)
VIII. Westminster Standards (Presbyterian)
B. Conduct
1. Members
a. As a member you are duty bound to uphold the doctrine set out under A1.

b. This does not mean, for example, that someone affirming the London Baptist Confession of 1689 cannot criticize or question the Articles of Religion.

c. Only members may be moderators of SR.

d. All those who break these rules shall be dealt with in accordance with Staff Protocol.

2. Non-Members:
a. Whilst we welcome non-SR members from seeking a greater understanding of our beliefs and practice this must be confined to the sub-forum “Ask a Calvinist”.

b. Whilst we welcome non-SR members who wish to debate with us our beliefs and practice this must be confined to the sub-forum “Debate with a Calvinist”.

c. Threads that seek to undermine the doctrine set out under A1 are not permitted anywhere except the sub-forum “Debate with a Calvinist”.

d. All those who break these rules shall be dealt with in accordance with Staff Protocol.



These rules can only be changed by a three-quarters majority vote of the Semper Reformanda membership. All voting will take place over a period of two weeks in a public poll.

 

[GraceSeeker]

Well, again, I can post in wiki yet, but I have tried to incorporate the suggestions taken from the above two congregational forums to see if I can work out something for us in Wesley's Parish. Below is my offering that I submit for continued discussion:



Rules of Wesley’s Parish (the WP congregational forum).

1. Everyone is welcome to post socially, and people who are not full members may ask questions. A sub-forum is provided for non-Wesleyans who wish to debate points of Wesleyan, or any other, theology and praxis. No person may use Wesley’s Parish for proselytizing, period. Wesley’s Parish members will be allowed to defend the teachings and practices of their faith through the parish forum. All persons are asked to remember John Wesley’s “General Rules” which enjoin one to give evidence of their salvation by:
First – “by doing no harm, by avoiding evil in every kind.” In other words, coarse language, ad hominem arguments, personal attacks, and incendiary comments have no place within the parish.
Secondly – “by doing good, by being, in every kind, merciful after their power, as they have opportunity, doing good of every possible sort, and, as far as possible, to all men.” In other words, when in doubt, give people the benefit of the doubt. Use “build-ups” rather than “put-downs” in one’s conversation. Heed Paul’s advice to practice hospitality, live in harmony with one another, and “as far as it depends on you, to live at peace with everyone” (Romans 12:18).
Thirdly – “by attending upon all the ordinances of God. Such are, the public worship of God; the ministry of the word, either read or expounded; the supper of the Lord; family and private prayer; searching the Scriptures; and fasting or abstinence.” While it is beyond the prevue of Wesley’s Parish to monitor individual behavior apart from that which actually takes place within this parish, we nonetheless encourage all persons to avail themselves of all the means of grace which Wesley identifies in these his General Rules. All other general rules of Christian Forums are in force in Wesley’s Parish as well.

2. Generally full members will be members of a denomination which is in concert with the historic teachings of John and Charles Wesley. The following list includes those that are recognized at the present time:

The United Methodist Church
Who we are
What we believe

The Church of the Nazerene
Who we are
What we believe

The Free Methodist Church of North America
Who we are
What we believe

The Wesleyan Church
Who we are
What we believe

The Methodist Church of Great Britian
Who we are
What we believe

The African Methodist Episcopal Church
Who we are
What we believe

Church of Christ in Christian Union
Who we are
What we believe


We recognize that this is not an exhaustive list of all those denominations, let alone all individuals, who hold to the historic Wesleyan perspectives on theology and the practice of Christian faith. We also recognize that not all members of these denomination may themselves personally hold Wesleyan beliefs. Thus, in a spirit of openness, we invite any and all who are members of any of these above named denominations or who claim to hold to the beliefs found in the teachings of John Wesley to participate as a full-member of Wesley’s Parish.

Those individuals who are Wesleyan without belonging to an historically Wesleyan denomination, will however have find that they are able to affirm the “What we believe” positions of at least one of the above named denominations. Upon registering such affirmation with the WP community, all such individuals will be accepted as full-members of the Parish. Denominations can be added to the above list if nominated and approved by a ¾ agreement of all voting WP members in a public poll. (Said poll shall be open for a period of 2 weeks from date of first posting by a WP moderator.)

It is asked that full members either display through their icons (either outwardly exposed or identifying themselves as Wesleyan in some way when a cursor hovers over the faith icon) or put something identifying themselves as Wesleyan somewhere such as in their signature line in order to help the moderators of the forum.

3. Subforum:
While we welcome non-WP members seeking a greater understanding of our beliefs and practice this must be confined to the sub-forum. Non-WP members who wish to debate with us our beliefs and practice must confine those debates to the sub-forum. Threads that seek to undermine the beliefs and practices of historic Wesleyan beliefs and praxis are not permitted anywhere except in the sub-forum. All those who break these rules shall be dealt with in accordance with the decision of WP moderators and, at their discretion, may be banned from the entire Parish, including the sub-forum.