What an unfortunate choice of words. lolThat some of the church fathers were a bit anal when it came to sex,...
IMO the intent was the key here and if the intent was always to switch to IC before his completion then they are ok even if they miscaluculate and are nit in time--unless they so often misjudge that they are jus trying to fool themselves about their intent.Example:
Mr Man is desiring some "variety" (I think that's the word) and Mrs Woman is happy to oblige. Does said variety count as extended foreplay if they move onto sex 5 seconds before he finishes? Or are they being immoral because he almost climaxed - ahem - externally? Or are they immoral because the intent wasn't really to have sex? Or am I over-thinking this?
Right.nah, they can "variety" in foreplay, so long as he completes vaginally.
I do not think that most of the time NFP needs to have a half month of abstinence unless there are some reasons for REALLY conservative practices. And, I venture to say the IMO they are different than you, not lying to you or themselves. It promotes self-giving and demotes selfishness--both very good.Twofold....and because the people that say NFP's half month of abstinence make their relationship stronger are either lying or just very different than me. Mostly I think they're just trying to convince themselves. I
Or maybe they really get it and really understand.I'll agree that the folks who claim abstaining for 2-3 weeks a month makes their marriage stronger are engaging in some serious self-deception. Imagine how great their marriage would be if they just abstained forever?
if you are catholic you are more then welcome here, please make yourself at home
I do not think that most of the time NFP needs to have a half month of abstinence unless there are some reasons for REALLY conservative practices.
Hahaha. Every time I've had to ask a priest "Is this OK?" about a grey area of life, signs have always pointed to yes.I've always hated that answer. We have 2000 + years of doctrines and such, surely someone must have covered this in detail. "ask your Priest" is about the equilivant of "ask a magic 8-ball". I would get 100 answers from 100 Priests. Signs point to yes.
I've found that a lot of the terminology in the Catechism and other Church documents is heavily stigmatized, if not detached from reality.Well from a technical standpoint all sexual acts outside of coitus are under the heading of sodomy, it was only fairly recently (like for the past 300 years lol) that it was exclusive to anal sex. Oral sex and masturbation are forms of sodomy.
It's sorta along the same lines as them catching each other at the liquor store, methinks.Oh and how come it is always OBOB that has the sex threads? the baptists are going to think we are freaks lol
I do not think that most of the time NFP needs to have a half month of abstinence unless there are some reasons for REALLY conservative practices. And, I venture to say the IMO they are different than you, not lying to you or themselves. It promotes self-giving and demotes selfishness--both very good.
Or maybe they really get it and really understand.
Also, this makes me think of the old joke, the last part of which is that a pilot says to the passengers on a 4 erngine plane "Folks we are going to be up here a bit longer than usual because we are going slower because 3 of the 4 engines have broken." And one pasenger turns to the other and says "I hope that last engine doesn't break or we will be up here forever."
Now, now, Mike, behave yourself. Remember, Jesus is always watching.Because I don't for one minute believe that oral sex between a man and his spouse is of a lower dignity. Nor do I think that there's anything wrong with describing sex as fun. It can be alot of things to alot of people, but it should be fun and we should keep it fun. There is nothing undignified about fun. I don't think God only smiles upon vanilla sex.
Oral sex is out but 3-ways are in? I kid...
Bump.I
To pick up a minor point that someone made at some point in this thread:
if a husband in his forties develops a chronic erectile dysfunction that medicine and loving wifely support cannot help (and he does not want to try psychotherapy or Viagra), but he is still very happy to pleasure his wife in other ways, and she loves to reciprocate, in a way that gives him physical pleasure and emotional happiness - is there any priest or moralist alive who will dare to say that instead, they need to live as brother and sister for the rest of their lives (forty years or so)? Or would that fall under Matthew 5:32?
Well, it's pretty confusing when a priest tells you something within the counsel of Reconciliation, only to hear someone contradict that, and be left wondering, "Can I trust even my priest?"Yea, it's tough to rely on just the advice of clergy - my wife was told that using contraceptives were alright, and I was told that abortion is alright in certain circumstances. The good news is that we have our own ability to investigate these things, and therefore you can take responsibility for finding out what the church teaches on your own, and not worry about being misled by any clergymen.
Hahahaha. Sorry, that just made me literally laugh out loud.I'll agree that the folks who claim abstaining for 2-3 weeks a month makes their marriage stronger are engaging in some serious self-deception. Imagine how great their marriage would be if they just abstained forever?
Roflol! You guys are killing me.I generally find that the less people you invite into your bedroom...the less explaining or rationalizing you have to do.
I really do not understand why you have decided to misinterpret my post, declare it "dismissive" and decide that I was saying that you don't get it. I never said that. Let's recap the bidding. It was you that declared that folks that believed NFP strengthened their marriage even if they had to abstain for 2-3 weeks were engaged in "some serious self-deception." I did not like your assassination of so many folks and so offered the alternative that maybe they were not deceiving themselves but they understood and got it. I never said you or anyone else didn't get it but your offense at this point is an unmistakable indication of what you know and fear.abstaining for 2 weeks a month isn't 'really' conservative (7 - 10 days plus menstruation), but rather is fairly normal. My wife and I have been trying to use NFP for 4 yrs, and are 'plugged' in with our CCL chapter here (I even designed their website), and all the experts have been unable to help my wife and me use NFP reliably. We're one of the cases you never hear about, or rather that folks rather not tell you about, and dismissive responses such as yours, about how we must just not really get it, don't help at all.
Also, I wasn't counting menstruation because abstaining then has IMO little or nothing to do with NFP.
If folks are typically abstaining then, there are doing so with or without NFP so I don't count those days as NFP-related abstention.
I really do not understand why you have decided to misinterpret my post, declare it "dismissive" and decide that I was saying that you don't get it. I never said that. Let's recap the bidding. It was you that declared that folks that believed NFP strengthened their marriage even if they had to abstain for 2-3 weeks were engaged in "some serious self-deception." I did not like your assassination of so many folks and so offered the alternative that maybe they were not deceiving themselves but they understood and got it. I never said you or anyone else didn't get it but your offense at this point is an unmistakable indication of what you know and fear.
I really do not understand why you have decided to misinterpret my post, declare it "dismissive" and decide that I was saying that you don't get it. I never said that. Let's recap the bidding. It was you that declared that folks that believed NFP strengthened their marriage even if they had to abstain for 2-3 weeks were engaged in "some serious self-deception." I did not like your assassination of so many folks and so offered the alternative that maybe they were not deceiving themselves but they understood and got it. I never said you or anyone else didn't get it but your offense at this point is an unmistakable indication of what you know and fear.
Also, I wasn't counting menstruation because abstaining then has IMO little or nothing to do with NFP. If folks are typically abstaining then, there are doing so with or without NFP so I don't count those days as NFP-related abstention.
Also, I wasn't counting menstruation because abstaining then has IMO little or nothing to do with NFP.
I am sorry about that, I really should have asked you if I was counting menstruation and if in my opinion it has little or nothing to do with NFP. Of course, you know better than I do what I was doing and what my opinion is. Forgive me.Oh. You're wrong.
If folks are typically abstaining then, there are doing so with or without NFP so I don't count those days as NFP-related abstention.
I don't think it's gross; I didn't say it was gross; I didn't say I thought it was gross. What I said was that if a couple decides that the are going to abstain during menstruation, they usually practice that abstention both when practicing NFP and when not. It usually is not the case that the couple abstains during menstruation only when practicing NFP or vice versa.Who says they're doing so with or without NFP? Are you yet another poster who thinks "I think it's gross, therefore everyone must think it's gross, and gross things are wrong"?
I really do not understand why you have decided to misinterpret my post, declare it "dismissive" and decide that I was saying that you don't get it. I never said that. Let's recap the bidding. It was you that declared that folks that believed NFP strengthened their marriage even if they had to abstain for 2-3 weeks were engaged in "some serious self-deception." I did not like your assassination of so many folks and so offered the alternative that maybe they were not deceiving themselves but they understood and got it. I never said you or anyone else didn't get it but your offense at this point is an unmistakable indication of what you know and fear.
Quite correct. But I am a good reader, writer and analyzer of terrible logic.You're not a very good dancer.
It usually is not the case that the couple abstains during menstruation only when practicing NFP or vice versa.
Quite correct. But I am a good reader, writer and analyzer of terrible logic.
Wow, you need to get back to left field right away. No, on second thought, get thee to a reading class.
Then, read again and see if you can say something that makes sense.
Or not. It is interesting and very telling that you felt the need to respond the way you did to a post not directed to you.
You did misinterpret, my position is in black and white, nor "argument" was "implied" "clearly" or otherwise. You wrongly inferred and it is clear why.I didn't misinterpret your post - your argument is clearly implied. You stated that I don't get it. I have to agree with Mike here, that you're attempting to dance around what you said, and that you aren't very good at it.
Yes. But apparently, you do not get this! Oh oh, now I have said it.Does that really change anything about the fact that folks using NFP must abstain for +2 weeks per month?
It is some folk's personal preference; exactly!Yeah, you know what? No. You're still wrong. Practicing NFP is the only reason other than personal preference to avoid intercourse durring menstruation that comes to mind. These are fertile days, therefore they count.
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