Let's talk about sex, baby.

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CuriousInIL

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That some of the church fathers were a bit anal when it came to sex,...
What an unfortunate choice of words. lol
Example:

Mr Man is desiring some "variety" (I think that's the word) and Mrs Woman is happy to oblige. Does said variety count as extended foreplay if they move onto sex 5 seconds before he finishes? Or are they being immoral because he almost climaxed - ahem - externally? Or are they immoral because the intent wasn't really to have sex? Or am I over-thinking this?
IMO the intent was the key here and if the intent was always to switch to IC before his completion then they are ok even if they miscaluculate and are nit in time--unless they so often misjudge that they are jus trying to fool themselves about their intent.

nah, they can "variety" in foreplay, so long as he completes vaginally.
Right.:thumbsup:

Twofold....and because the people that say NFP's half month of abstinence make their relationship stronger are either lying or just very different than me. Mostly I think they're just trying to convince themselves. I
I do not think that most of the time NFP needs to have a half month of abstinence unless there are some reasons for REALLY conservative practices. And, I venture to say the IMO they are different than you, not lying to you or themselves. It promotes self-giving and demotes selfishness--both very good.

I'll agree that the folks who claim abstaining for 2-3 weeks a month makes their marriage stronger are engaging in some serious self-deception. Imagine how great their marriage would be if they just abstained forever?
Or maybe they really get it and really understand.
Also, this makes me think of the old joke, the last part of which is that a pilot says to the passengers on a 4 erngine plane "Folks we are going to be up here a bit longer than usual because we are going slower because 3 of the 4 engines have broken." And one pasenger turns to the other and says "I hope that last engine doesn't break or we will be up here forever."
 
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BlessedPearl

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I do not think that most of the time NFP needs to have a half month of abstinence unless there are some reasons for REALLY conservative practices.

Well, to be truly safe, vaginal intercourse needs to be avoided for the first few weeks of the cycle including during the period. Otherwise, there is a risk of pregnancy. I know someone who got pregnant by having intercourse on day 5 of the cycle, just as the period was coming to an end. This is because the sperm can live for 7 days until the woman is fertile. Then you get the women who get pregnant because they did not have clear signs of fertility and ovulated late in the cycle. The only truly safe time is when the next period is imminent.
 
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Caedmon

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I've always hated that answer. We have 2000 + years of doctrines and such, surely someone must have covered this in detail. "ask your Priest" is about the equilivant of "ask a magic 8-ball". I would get 100 answers from 100 Priests. Signs point to yes.
Hahaha. Every time I've had to ask a priest "Is this OK?" about a grey area of life, signs have always pointed to yes. :D If it isn't a major sticking point (no pun intended), 9 times out of 10, a priest is going to say it's A-OK, at least in my experience.

That is, if you can get a priest to even talk about it. My experience is that most priests will dodge discussing the gory details of just about anything. I can tell you exactly how a "So I can I put it there?" discussion is going to end up when talking to a priest: "Uhhh, just love God and have fun. *wince* "
 
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Caedmon

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Well from a technical standpoint all sexual acts outside of coitus are under the heading of sodomy, it was only fairly recently (like for the past 300 years lol) that it was exclusive to anal sex. Oral sex and masturbation are forms of sodomy.
I've found that a lot of the terminology in the Catechism and other Church documents is heavily stigmatized, if not detached from reality.
Oh and how come it is always OBOB that has the sex threads? the baptists are going to think we are freaks lol
It's sorta along the same lines as them catching each other at the liquor store, methinks.
 
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geocajun

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I do not think that most of the time NFP needs to have a half month of abstinence unless there are some reasons for REALLY conservative practices. And, I venture to say the IMO they are different than you, not lying to you or themselves. It promotes self-giving and demotes selfishness--both very good.

Or maybe they really get it and really understand.
Also, this makes me think of the old joke, the last part of which is that a pilot says to the passengers on a 4 erngine plane "Folks we are going to be up here a bit longer than usual because we are going slower because 3 of the 4 engines have broken." And one pasenger turns to the other and says "I hope that last engine doesn't break or we will be up here forever."

abstaining for 2 weeks a month isn't 'really' conservative (7 - 10 days plus menstruation), but rather is fairly normal. My wife and I have been trying to use NFP for 4 yrs, and are 'plugged' in with our CCL chapter here (I even designed their website), and all the experts have been unable to help my wife and me use NFP reliably. We're one of the cases you never hear about, or rather that folks rather not tell you about, and dismissive responses such as yours, about how we must just not really get it, don't help at all.
 
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Caedmon

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Because I don't for one minute believe that oral sex between a man and his spouse is of a lower dignity. Nor do I think that there's anything wrong with describing sex as fun. It can be alot of things to alot of people, but it should be fun and we should keep it fun. There is nothing undignified about fun. I don't think God only smiles upon vanilla sex.



Oral sex is out but 3-ways are in? I kid...
Now, now, Mike, behave yourself. Remember, Jesus is always watching.
 
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To pick up a minor point that someone made at some point in this thread:

if a husband in his forties develops a chronic erectile dysfunction that medicine and loving wifely support cannot help (and he does not want to try psychotherapy or Viagra), but he is still very happy to pleasure his wife in other ways, and she loves to reciprocate, in a way that gives him physical pleasure and emotional happiness - is there any priest or moralist alive who will dare to say that instead, they need to live as brother and sister for the rest of their lives (forty years or so)? Or would that fall under Matthew 5:32?
Bump.
 
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Caedmon

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Yea, it's tough to rely on just the advice of clergy - my wife was told that using contraceptives were alright, and I was told that abortion is alright in certain circumstances. The good news is that we have our own ability to investigate these things, and therefore you can take responsibility for finding out what the church teaches on your own, and not worry about being misled by any clergymen.
Well, it's pretty confusing when a priest tells you something within the counsel of Reconciliation, only to hear someone contradict that, and be left wondering, "Can I trust even my priest?"
 
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Caedmon

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I'll agree that the folks who claim abstaining for 2-3 weeks a month makes their marriage stronger are engaging in some serious self-deception. Imagine how great their marriage would be if they just abstained forever?
Hahahaha. Sorry, that just made me literally laugh out loud. :D
 
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CuriousInIL

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abstaining for 2 weeks a month isn't 'really' conservative (7 - 10 days plus menstruation), but rather is fairly normal. My wife and I have been trying to use NFP for 4 yrs, and are 'plugged' in with our CCL chapter here (I even designed their website), and all the experts have been unable to help my wife and me use NFP reliably. We're one of the cases you never hear about, or rather that folks rather not tell you about, and dismissive responses such as yours, about how we must just not really get it, don't help at all.
I really do not understand why you have decided to misinterpret my post, declare it "dismissive" and decide that I was saying that you don't get it. I never said that. Let's recap the bidding. It was you that declared that folks that believed NFP strengthened their marriage even if they had to abstain for 2-3 weeks were engaged in "some serious self-deception." I did not like your assassination of so many folks and so offered the alternative that maybe they were not deceiving themselves but they understood and got it. I never said you or anyone else didn't get it but your offense at this point is an unmistakable indication of what you know and fear.

Also, I wasn't counting menstruation because abstaining then has IMO little or nothing to do with NFP. If folks are typically abstaining then, there are doing so with or without NFP so I don't count those days as NFP-related abstention.
 
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MikeK

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Also, I wasn't counting menstruation because abstaining then has IMO little or nothing to do with NFP.

Oh. You're wrong.

If folks are typically abstaining then, there are doing so with or without NFP so I don't count those days as NFP-related abstention.

Who says they're doing so with or without NFP? Are you yet another poster who thinks "I think it's gross, therefore everyone must think it's gross, and gross things are wrong"?

I really do not understand why you have decided to misinterpret my post, declare it "dismissive" and decide that I was saying that you don't get it. I never said that. Let's recap the bidding. It was you that declared that folks that believed NFP strengthened their marriage even if they had to abstain for 2-3 weeks were engaged in "some serious self-deception." I did not like your assassination of so many folks and so offered the alternative that maybe they were not deceiving themselves but they understood and got it. I never said you or anyone else didn't get it but your offense at this point is an unmistakable indication of what you know and fear.

You're not a very good dancer.
 
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geocajun

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I really do not understand why you have decided to misinterpret my post, declare it "dismissive" and decide that I was saying that you don't get it. I never said that. Let's recap the bidding. It was you that declared that folks that believed NFP strengthened their marriage even if they had to abstain for 2-3 weeks were engaged in "some serious self-deception." I did not like your assassination of so many folks and so offered the alternative that maybe they were not deceiving themselves but they understood and got it. I never said you or anyone else didn't get it but your offense at this point is an unmistakable indication of what you know and fear.

I didn't misinterpret your post - your argument is clearly implied. You stated that I don't get it. I have to agree with Mike here, that you're attempting to dance around what you said, and that you aren't very good at it.

Also, I wasn't counting menstruation because abstaining then has IMO little or nothing to do with NFP. If folks are typically abstaining then, there are doing so with or without NFP so I don't count those days as NFP-related abstention.

Does that really change anything about the fact that folks using NFP must abstain for +2 weeks per month?
 
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CuriousInIL

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Also, I wasn't counting menstruation because abstaining then has IMO little or nothing to do with NFP.
Oh. You're wrong.
I am sorry about that, I really should have asked you if I was counting menstruation and if in my opinion it has little or nothing to do with NFP. Of course, you know better than I do what I was doing and what my opinion is. Forgive me.

If folks are typically abstaining then, there are doing so with or without NFP so I don't count those days as NFP-related abstention.

Who says they're doing so with or without NFP? Are you yet another poster who thinks "I think it's gross, therefore everyone must think it's gross, and gross things are wrong"?
I don't think it's gross; I didn't say it was gross; I didn't say I thought it was gross. What I said was that if a couple decides that the are going to abstain during menstruation, they usually practice that abstention both when practicing NFP and when not. It usually is not the case that the couple abstains during menstruation only when practicing NFP or vice versa.

I really do not understand why you have decided to misinterpret my post, declare it "dismissive" and decide that I was saying that you don't get it. I never said that. Let's recap the bidding. It was you that declared that folks that believed NFP strengthened their marriage even if they had to abstain for 2-3 weeks were engaged in "some serious self-deception." I did not like your assassination of so many folks and so offered the alternative that maybe they were not deceiving themselves but they understood and got it. I never said you or anyone else didn't get it but your offense at this point is an unmistakable indication of what you know and fear.

You're not a very good dancer.
Quite correct. But I am a good reader, writer and analyzer of terrible logic.
Wow, you need to get back to left field right away. No, on second thought, get thee to a reading class.

Then, read again and see if you can say something that makes sense.

Or not. It is interesting and very telling that you felt the need to respond the way you did to a post not directed to you.
 
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MikeK

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If I were Geocajun, I would change my "Legend" custom user title to "Assassin" at this point. Sadly, he's a better man than I and probably classy enough not to do so.


Posts about how wonderful NFP is for a relationship do make it difficult to question it's cult and they do make you start to question yourself. But, as my wife and I started to actually speak about this stuff with out Church friends, my gosh, it appears we really aren't alone! It seems most people that I speak with resent it, at least some of the time. Most people understand that handing your wife a thermometer in the morning and filling out a chart for her does not appreciably strengthen what should already be a rather strong bond, nor does it make you appreciate her body in a deeper way or any of the other side benefits that NFP get's (over)sold with. Most people also kinda fear that there has been a very real attempt by some to repeat this mantra until it becomes true. That doesn't work.

If NFP if all we can use licitly, fine, so be it. Don't try to tell me I should be happy about it though because this package sucks. Sell it as the cross to bear that it is.
 
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MikeK

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It usually is not the case that the couple abstains during menstruation only when practicing NFP or vice versa.

Yeah, you know what? No. You're still wrong. Practicing NFP is the only reason other than personal preference to avoid intercourse durring menstruation that comes to mind. These are fertile days, therefore they count.
 
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geocajun

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Quite correct. But I am a good reader, writer and analyzer of terrible logic.
Wow, you need to get back to left field right away. No, on second thought, get thee to a reading class.

Then, read again and see if you can say something that makes sense.

Or not. It is interesting and very telling that you felt the need to respond the way you did to a post not directed to you.

If what you have demonstrated here is any indication of your logic skills, then it seems to me that you are seriously overestimating yourself, and it is you who needs to "get thee to a reading class".
Btw, I hope you found my response to this post which was not directed at me, to be both interesting and telling as well. ;)
 
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CuriousInIL

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I didn't misinterpret your post - your argument is clearly implied. You stated that I don't get it. I have to agree with Mike here, that you're attempting to dance around what you said, and that you aren't very good at it.
You did misinterpret, my position is in black and white, nor "argument" was "implied" "clearly" or otherwise. You wrongly inferred and it is clear why.

If I stated you don't get it, those words are in my post and you could quote them back to me. Because they are not, you cannot.


Does that really change anything about the fact that folks using NFP must abstain for +2 weeks per month?
Yes. But apparently, you do not get this! Oh oh, now I have said it.
 
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CuriousInIL

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Yeah, you know what? No. You're still wrong. Practicing NFP is the only reason other than personal preference to avoid intercourse durring menstruation that comes to mind. These are fertile days, therefore they count.
It is some folk's personal preference; exactly!
 
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