Let's talk about sex, baby.
- Thread starter MikeK
- Start date
- Status
I understand the frustration of 'go ask a priest' as if sometimes it's used as mantra. But I think that none of us wants to give out bad advice or incorrect info, and that just seems to be the safest answer for extreme cases and individual cases. I do see the point, though, that you're not necessarily gonna get the best answer even if you do ask a priest.
Upvote
0
Maggie893
It is what it is.
I believe the key is that both husband and wife must be acting with total self-giving and an openness to life. I've read that the acts of anal & oral sex are disordered and are considered the "acts of homosexuality" even if it is between a man & a woman. If the "stimulation" is not intended to be fulfilled in intercourse then it becomes selfish, closed to life and therefore contrary to chastity.
Here's an excerpt from the Catechism:
Offenses against chastity
2351 Lust is disordered desire for or inordinate enjoyment of sexual pleasure. Sexual pleasure is morally disordered when sought for itself, isolated from its procreative and unitive purposes.
2352 By masturbation is to be understood the deliberate stimulation of the genital organs in order to derive sexual pleasure. "Both the Magisterium of the Church, in the course of a constant tradition, and the moral sense of the faithful have been in no doubt and have firmly maintained that masturbation is an intrinsically and gravely disordered action."137 "The deliberate use of the sexual faculty, for whatever reason, outside of marriage is essentially contrary to its purpose." For here sexual pleasure is sought outside of "the sexual relationship which is demanded by the moral order and in which the total meaning of mutual self-giving and human procreation in the context of true love is achieved."138
To form an equitable judgment about the subjects' moral responsibility and to guide pastoral action, one must take into account the affective immaturity, force of acquired habit, conditions of anxiety or other psychological or social factors that lessen, if not even reduce to a minimum, moral culpability.
2353 Fornication is carnal union between an unmarried man and an unmarried woman. It is gravely contrary to the dignity of persons and of human sexuality which is naturally ordered to the good of spouses and the generation and education of children. Moreover, it is a grave scandal when there is corruption of the young.
2354 inappropriate contentography consists in removing real or simulated sexual acts from the intimacy of the partners, in order to display them deliberately to third parties. It offends against chastity because it perverts the conjugal act, the intimate giving of spouses to each other. It does grave injury to the dignity of its participants (actors, vendors, the public), since each one becomes an object of base pleasure and illicit profit for others. It immerses all who are involved in the illusion of a fantasy world. It is a grave offense. Civil authorities should prevent the production and distribution of inappropriate contentographic materials.
2355 Prostitution does injury to the dignity of the person who engages in it, reducing the person to an instrument of sexual pleasure. The one who pays sins gravely against himself: he violates the chastity to which his Baptism pledged him and defiles his body, the temple of the Holy Spirit.139 Prostitution is a social scourge. It usually involves women, but also men, children, and adolescents (The latter two cases involve the added sin of scandal.). While it is always gravely sinful to engage in prostitution, the imputability of the offense can be attenuated by destitution, blackmail, or social pressure.
2356 Rape is the forcible violation of the sexual intimacy of another person. It does injury to justice and charity. Rape deeply wounds the respect, freedom, and physical and moral integrity to which every person has a right. It causes grave damage that can mark the victim for life. It is always an intrinsically evil act. Graver still is the rape of children committed by parents (incest) or those responsible for the education of the children entrusted to them.
Chastity and homosexuality
2357 Homosexuality refers to relations between men or between women who experience an exclusive or predominant sexual attraction toward persons of the same sex. It has taken a great variety of forms through the centuries and in different cultures. Its psychological genesis remains largely unexplained. Basing itself on Sacred Scripture, which presents homosexual acts as acts of grave depravity,140 tradition has always declared that "homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered."141 They are contrary to the natural law. They close the sexual act to the gift of life. They do not proceed from a genuine affective and sexual complementarity. Under no circumstances can they be approved.
2358 The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. This inclination, which is objectively disordered, constitutes for most of them a trial. They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. These persons are called to fulfill God's will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord's Cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition. 2359 Homosexual persons are called to chastity. By the virtues of self-mastery that teach them inner freedom, at times by the support of disinterested friendship, by prayer and sacramental grace, they can and should gradually and resolutely approach Christian perfection.
Here's an excerpt from the Catechism:
Offenses against chastity
2351 Lust is disordered desire for or inordinate enjoyment of sexual pleasure. Sexual pleasure is morally disordered when sought for itself, isolated from its procreative and unitive purposes.
2352 By masturbation is to be understood the deliberate stimulation of the genital organs in order to derive sexual pleasure. "Both the Magisterium of the Church, in the course of a constant tradition, and the moral sense of the faithful have been in no doubt and have firmly maintained that masturbation is an intrinsically and gravely disordered action."137 "The deliberate use of the sexual faculty, for whatever reason, outside of marriage is essentially contrary to its purpose." For here sexual pleasure is sought outside of "the sexual relationship which is demanded by the moral order and in which the total meaning of mutual self-giving and human procreation in the context of true love is achieved."138
To form an equitable judgment about the subjects' moral responsibility and to guide pastoral action, one must take into account the affective immaturity, force of acquired habit, conditions of anxiety or other psychological or social factors that lessen, if not even reduce to a minimum, moral culpability.
2353 Fornication is carnal union between an unmarried man and an unmarried woman. It is gravely contrary to the dignity of persons and of human sexuality which is naturally ordered to the good of spouses and the generation and education of children. Moreover, it is a grave scandal when there is corruption of the young.
2354 inappropriate contentography consists in removing real or simulated sexual acts from the intimacy of the partners, in order to display them deliberately to third parties. It offends against chastity because it perverts the conjugal act, the intimate giving of spouses to each other. It does grave injury to the dignity of its participants (actors, vendors, the public), since each one becomes an object of base pleasure and illicit profit for others. It immerses all who are involved in the illusion of a fantasy world. It is a grave offense. Civil authorities should prevent the production and distribution of inappropriate contentographic materials.
2355 Prostitution does injury to the dignity of the person who engages in it, reducing the person to an instrument of sexual pleasure. The one who pays sins gravely against himself: he violates the chastity to which his Baptism pledged him and defiles his body, the temple of the Holy Spirit.139 Prostitution is a social scourge. It usually involves women, but also men, children, and adolescents (The latter two cases involve the added sin of scandal.). While it is always gravely sinful to engage in prostitution, the imputability of the offense can be attenuated by destitution, blackmail, or social pressure.
2356 Rape is the forcible violation of the sexual intimacy of another person. It does injury to justice and charity. Rape deeply wounds the respect, freedom, and physical and moral integrity to which every person has a right. It causes grave damage that can mark the victim for life. It is always an intrinsically evil act. Graver still is the rape of children committed by parents (incest) or those responsible for the education of the children entrusted to them.
Chastity and homosexuality
2357 Homosexuality refers to relations between men or between women who experience an exclusive or predominant sexual attraction toward persons of the same sex. It has taken a great variety of forms through the centuries and in different cultures. Its psychological genesis remains largely unexplained. Basing itself on Sacred Scripture, which presents homosexual acts as acts of grave depravity,140 tradition has always declared that "homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered."141 They are contrary to the natural law. They close the sexual act to the gift of life. They do not proceed from a genuine affective and sexual complementarity. Under no circumstances can they be approved.
2358 The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. This inclination, which is objectively disordered, constitutes for most of them a trial. They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. These persons are called to fulfill God's will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord's Cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition. 2359 Homosexual persons are called to chastity. By the virtues of self-mastery that teach them inner freedom, at times by the support of disinterested friendship, by prayer and sacramental grace, they can and should gradually and resolutely approach Christian perfection.
Upvote
0
Da_Funkey_Gibbon
I'm just like the others...
Well, sodomy would be more accurate, but seeing as sodomy seems to have taken on the connotation of exclusively homosexual acts among some circles, I can see how someone would write that.
Upvote
0
I believe this is true about anal sex, it's sodomy. I don't think it's true about oral sex between a man and a woman who are married as long as, as rose pointed out, the sex act is completed.
Upvote
0
Rhamiel
Member of the Round Table
Well from a technical standpoint all sexual acts outside of coitus are under the heading of sodomy, it was only fairly recently (like for the past 300 years lol) that it was exclusive to anal sex. Oral sex and masturbation are forms of sodomy.
Oh and how come it is always OBOB that has the sex threads? the baptists are going to think we are freaks lol
Upvote
0
hsilgne
Frustrated in Hooterville.
From the Catechism...
CLICK HERE to view the full text.
Here are some points I think are relevant...
"2360 Sexuality is ordered to the conjugal love of man and woman. In marriage the physical intimacy of the spouses becomes a sign and pledge of spiritual communion. Marriage bonds between baptized persons are sanctified by the sacrament.
2361 "Sexuality, by means of which man and woman give themselves to one another through the acts which are proper and exclusive to spouses, is not something simply biological, but concerns the innermost being of the human person as such. It is realized in a truly human way only if it is an integral part of the love by which a man and woman commit themselves totally to one another until death."
2362 "The acts in marriage by which the intimate and chaste union of the spouses takes place are noble and honorable; the truly human performance of these acts fosters the self-giving they signify and enriches the spouses in joy and gratitude." Sexuality is a source of joy and pleasure:
The Creator himself . . . established that in the [generative] function, spouses should experience pleasure and enjoyment of body and spirit. Therefore, the spouses do nothing evil in seeking this pleasure and enjoyment. They accept what the Creator has intended for them. At the same time, spouses should know how to keep themselves within the limits of just moderation."
CLICK HERE to view the full text.
Here are some points I think are relevant...
"2360 Sexuality is ordered to the conjugal love of man and woman. In marriage the physical intimacy of the spouses becomes a sign and pledge of spiritual communion. Marriage bonds between baptized persons are sanctified by the sacrament.
2361 "Sexuality, by means of which man and woman give themselves to one another through the acts which are proper and exclusive to spouses, is not something simply biological, but concerns the innermost being of the human person as such. It is realized in a truly human way only if it is an integral part of the love by which a man and woman commit themselves totally to one another until death."
2362 "The acts in marriage by which the intimate and chaste union of the spouses takes place are noble and honorable; the truly human performance of these acts fosters the self-giving they signify and enriches the spouses in joy and gratitude." Sexuality is a source of joy and pleasure:
The Creator himself . . . established that in the [generative] function, spouses should experience pleasure and enjoyment of body and spirit. Therefore, the spouses do nothing evil in seeking this pleasure and enjoyment. They accept what the Creator has intended for them. At the same time, spouses should know how to keep themselves within the limits of just moderation."
Upvote
0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums
I think this is where the problem lies. The marital act is not supposed to be fun--it's supposed to be something much better than fun, something much more profound and powerful.
The marital act is essentially a renewal of the sacrament of matrimony, that first time the couple came together and was joined as one flesh.
In this way, it is not unlike the Eucharist, which is a renewal of the original sacrifice of Christ. And just like when we try and make any of the other Sacraments "fun" we lower their dignity and cloud their sacredness, so do we do that when we take that intimate act between a husband and wife and seek to make it "fun."
That doesn't mean its not enjoyable or pleasurable or blissful because it is, but in a different way than fun things are--in fact, in a greater way. Just like the bliss of Heaven will make "fun" activities seem completely insignificant and unattractive.
The marital embrace has its own sacramental dignity. The love expressed is Trinitarian--husband, wife, and God are present. The couple should behave themselves in a way that respects this dignity and reflects this reality.
Sure, we can talk about what we can get away with and still be technically ok, but I think if we do that we miss the point. Why not take marital love to its highest possible dignity instead of its lowest licit dignity?
Upvote
0
Because I don't for one minute believe that oral sex between a man and his spouse is of a lower dignity. Nor do I think that there's anything wrong with describing sex as fun. It can be alot of things to alot of people, but it should be fun and we should keep it fun. There is nothing undignified about fun. I don't think God only smiles upon vanilla sex.
Oral sex is out but 3-ways are in? I kid...
Upvote
0
R
RoseofLima
Guest
I dunno, Quanta, I understand what you are saying....but if sex isn't kinda fun and, well, not routine- I can't see any married couple staying intimate over several decades.
And I really don't think it's a matter of "what we can get away with"- but rather what are licit expressions of carnal love. Some people - like me- need very clearly defined boundaries so that I can act in full freedom.
And I really don't think it's a matter of "what we can get away with"- but rather what are licit expressions of carnal love. Some people - like me- need very clearly defined boundaries so that I can act in full freedom.
Upvote
0
Filia Mariae
Senior Contributor
Really? So you don't believe in a "rule" about not having sex with other people?
Upvote
0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums
geocajun
Priest of the holy smackrament
Hi Mike, I didn't read through this thread, so sorry in advance if I'm repeating anything that's already been said.
yes
Well that is really a different question from the first. This question is more about any physical arousal outside of the context of intercourse, and if it is licit. The answer to that is yes, it is.
If the couple accidentally completes during foreplay, that is a different matter of course. There is no accidental sin. That said, if the man intentionally and knowingly completes outside of normal intercourse, that is sinful.
yes
to completion, yes.
Well that is really a different question from the first. This question is more about any physical arousal outside of the context of intercourse, and if it is licit. The answer to that is yes, it is.
There is no distinction made here within the doctrine of the church. 'Onanism' is the "spilling of the mans seed outside of the vagina", and it is not permitted.
If the couple accidentally completes during foreplay, that is a different matter of course. There is no accidental sin. That said, if the man intentionally and knowingly completes outside of normal intercourse, that is sinful.
Upvote
0
I didn't say "between other people". I was referring to the love between husband and wife.
Upvote
0
I do believe that you are correct. If I were to ask 100 priests for their opinion on a certain matter, I probably would get 100 different answers, which ultimately causes us to be even more confused. I have learned to pray and discern the voice of the Holy Spirit regarding these kinds of issues, and make my decision based on common sense and what is best in a particular situation. Not everything in life is black and white, there are a lot of gray areas.
Upvote
0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums
I know you kid about this Mike, but I do understand how it an be a strange concept to grasp.
A few years ago a poster named Credo posted something about family and Trinitarian (a response to an inquisitive question asked my his young daughter)-- love and how it relates, of course there isn't a carnal sexual parallel. But it IS quite awesome. I saved it to my private drafts, but I am at home and my mouse doesn't right click. Control x isn't doing the job with it either, to copy and paste, but I will post it when I get to work tomorrow. I thought it was a really cool thing when I first read it.
Upvote
0
- Status
Similar threads
