Let's Talk About Hell

[LittleLambofJesus]

What loss? Could it be that Hell will be filled with those who don't believe in Hell? Sure makes you wonder.

From what I understand, the religion of Judaism does not believe in a literal hell as do the religions of Islam and Christianity.

what jews believe about hell - Google Search

What Jews Believe

*snip*

Another question is, If the messianics claim to remain Jews, what do these messianics say about their supposedly "fellow" Jews?
Messianic "Jews" will say that the real Jews are going to Hell because they don't accept Jesus. This means that the messianic "Jews" condemn to hell the very group of which they still claim to be a part....


http://www.christianforums.com/t7470244/
Jews For Jesus

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

An interesting tidbit on the temp of Hell

http://www.christianforums.com/t7468421/
The temperature of Hell

quote: I found this from an article I was reading, thought i would share it with everyone for some lols

The exact temperature of hell cannot be computed but it must be less than 444.6°C, the temperature at which brimstone or sulfur changes from a liquid to a gas. Revelations 21:8: But the fearful and unbelieving... shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone."
A lake of molten brimstone [sulfur] means that its temperature must be at or below the boiling point, which is 444.6°C. (Above that point, it would be a vapour, not a lake).

 

[Der Alte]

An interesting tidbit on the temp of Hell

http://www.christianforums.com/t7468421/
The temperature of Hell

quote: I found this from an article I was reading, thought i would share it with everyone for some lols

The exact temperature of hell cannot be computed but it must be less than 444.6°C, the temperature at which brimstone or sulfur changes from a liquid to a gas. Revelations 21:8: But the fearful and unbelieving... shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone."
A lake of molten brimstone [sulfur] means that its temperature must be at or below the boiling point, which is 444.6°C. (Above that point, it would be a vapour, not a lake).

You might be on to something, there! Wonder if sulphur has a temperature point where it can be liquid and gas at the same time, as water has a "triple point" where it can exist in all three states at the same time?

 

[SkyWriting]

Originally Posted by LittleLambofJesus

An interesting tidbit on the temp of Hell

http://www.christianforums.com/t7468421/
The temperature of Hell
quote: I found this from an article I was reading, thought i would share it with everyone for some lols

The exact temperature of hell cannot be computed but it must be less than 444.6°C, the temperature at which brimstone or sulfur changes from a liquid to a gas. Revelations 21:8: But the fearful and unbelieving... shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone."
A lake of molten brimstone [sulfur] means that its temperature must be at or below the boiling point, which is 444.6°C. (Above that point, it would be a vapour, not a lake).
​

You might be on to something, there! Wonder if sulphur has a temperature point where it can be liquid and gas at the same time, as water has a "triple point" where it can exist in all three states at the same time?

Location is important. The elevation or pressure will change the boiling point. Lets assume a "lower" elevation and increase in pressure and a higher temp is then possible.

 

[SkyWriting]

Originally Posted by SkyWriting

[ . . . ]He already has asked for three things and was refused or denied due to circumstances. All three could have been a offer to help of some kind. They also may have been denied.
Instead he asked others to do things for him.
​

IOW you did not have a point, just being argumentative!

Ditto. The same as your response.


Just kidding.
"All three could have been a offer to help of some kind."
is the answer to your question.



He was just ordering others around rather than being a servant of God.
He is in Hell and will remain there by choice as he had rejected the
Holy Spirit which would have changed him into a servant of others
instead of others serving him.

 

[SkyWriting]

That eternal punishment is real, terrible, hot, and a permanent nightmare come true.

Except for it being a punishment it's true.

A "punishment" is just an earthly concept intended to temporarily get ones attention or focus off of themselves. Reality is that everyone suffers for their own actions. A punishment is just meant to get ones attention.

The "sentence" is to live with the result of ones actions or choices.

 

[FredVB]

Originally Posted by LittleLambofJesus

An interesting tidbit on the temp of Hell

http://www.christianforums.com/t7468421/
The temperature of Hell
quote: I found this from an article I was reading, thought i would share it with everyone for some lols

The exact temperature of hell cannot be computed but it must be less than 444.6°C, the temperature at which brimstone or sulfur changes from a liquid to a gas. Revelations 21:8: But the fearful and unbelieving... shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone."
A lake of molten brimstone [sulfur] means that its temperature must be at or below the boiling point, which is 444.6°C. (Above that point, it would be a vapour, not a lake).

​

Location is important. The elevation or pressure will change the boiling point. Lets assume a "lower" elevation and increase in pressure and a higher temp is then possible.

This is ultimately a ridiculous discussion. There are too many unknowns. Can you say for sure the Lake of Fire (and brimstone) consist of liquid sulfur (brimstone)? Or is it a flammable surface over a lake, water or something else that could have it float? Or is it imagery for something that can not be better described in terms that we are familiar with?

 

[Mathetes the kerux]

Ha!
Believe whatever you want, it's your loss.

I guess explicit denial or rejection of biblical texts fits into ur system?

Suit urself . . . I choose the whole counsel !

 

[Mathetes the kerux]

Christ spoke to the multitudes in parables and who was He speaking to when the Pharisees started deriding Him?

The multitudes!

That makes the story of the Rich man and Lazarus a Parable!

Yes, it is a parable, no matter how badly you want it to be otherwise!!!

Although, I'm pretty sure you won't let the facts stand in the way of a good story.

So what if it is a parable? That doesnt change the principles designed for the teaching. otherwise u must reject the love of the Father for the prodigal son and the womans desire for her coin or the shepherd for his sheep.

No dice. Jus because something is a parable doesnt mean that facets of it are any less true . . . nor the point any less real.

 

[Mathetes the kerux]

From what I understand, the religion of Judaism does not believe in a literal hell as do the religions of Islam and Christianity.

what jews believe about hell - Google Search

What Jews Believe

*snip*

Another question is, If the messianics claim to remain Jews, what do these messianics say about their supposedly "fellow" Jews?
Messianic "Jews" will say that the real Jews are going to Hell because they don't accept Jesus. This means that the messianic "Jews" condemn to hell the very group of which they still claim to be a part....


http://www.christianforums.com/t7470244/
Jews For Jesus

FYI current modes of Judaism are MUCH different then that of the 1st Cent Jews . . . who DID believe in a hell (2 of the three sects did and the one that did not was the smallest).

As for the 2nd portion . . . well Paul says that not all who are born Jews are real Jews . . .

 

[Mathetes the kerux]

And "weeping and gnashing of teeth" illustrates...........?

Sadness & Anger

Yes, but the point is that that is ONE concept associated with the judgement . . . u must ADD the rest along with it.

To say that it is ONLY mental anguish, or only the self imposed twisting of ones soul in anger, is wrong.

Sure those can be PARTS of what it is, but there is also a GREAT deal of emphasis placed on some sort of physicality ALSO being part of the final judgement.

 

[Mathetes the kerux]

Actually a guy who is supposedly being burned alive chatting with Lazarus about dipping His finger in some water for His tongue while the rest of Him is on fire?

That's pretty inconsistant!

Have you ever seen someone burning alive?

Have you ever burned yourself?

How about this, you PM me your phone number and arrange for me to ring you a certain time so you can heat up the stove and then We'll talk on the phone for about 20 seconds while you hold your hand on the stove and We'll see how you go!

And yes you said that you heard that some people say that when the Rich man asked for some water that it was possibly just an incoherent noise.
Since you mentioned it that makes you guilty of alligning yourself with those people who don't believe what is written!

Now there is another possiblity and that is that the parable of Lazarus and the Rich man is exactly that.

A Parable!

Actually wasn't it you who said that Jesus didn't speak to His disciples in parables?

Are you suggesting then that the Pharisees and the Scribes were Jesus disciples?

Actually a guy who is supposedly being burned alive chatting with Lazarus about dipping His finger in some water for His tongue while the rest of Him is on fire?

That's pretty inconsistant!

Have you ever seen someone burning alive?

Have you ever burned yourself?

How about this, you PM me your phone number and arrange for me to ring you a certain time so you can heat up the stove and then We'll talk on the phone for about 20 seconds while you hold your hand on the stove and We'll see how you go!

UNfortunately, u seem to forget that the MAN IS DEAD and not part of the resurrected state unto the last judgement. Therefore any "fire" etc that he is experiencing is not a fire effecting flesh in this passage. It is a heat upon the soulish/spiritual existence of the dead man. So, it is perfectly plausible to see torment of heat upon the man and him not burn up.

AND EVEN IF IT WAS PHYSICAL . . . do u not remember the burning bush in Exodus 3 that was ABLAZE yet not consumed?! The judgements of God are indeed supernatural and need not conform to what u think u see in ur daily life. No dice bro.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

FYI current modes of Judaism are MUCH different then that of the 1st Cent Jews . . . who DID believe in a hell (2 of the three sects did and the one that did not was the smallest).

As for the 2nd portion . . . well Paul says that not all who are born Jews are real Jews . . .

According to Romans 9:6, that is true

http://www.christianforums.com/t7364825-27/#post53327461
Romans 9:6

9:6 Not as which yet that has fallen-away the word of the God.
For not all the ones from out of Israel these Israel

 

[Mathetes the kerux]

I can. I get bleeding gashes on my legs DAILY as a result of not having much sensitivity. I imagine I could sew my own stitches without problem.
I don't even consider physical pain to be a serious issue in hell. Not because I fear it, but because I don't. Clearly. Because that is my argument anyway.

I do however have a story that illustrates the condition of a person in Hell.
He seems to be in discomfort, but not so much that he doesn't have compassion for those left behind.

I'll give you this picture and ask if those flames were "conventional" would this guy be chatting with Lazarus and thinking of others?

I can. I get bleeding gashes on my legs DAILY as a result of not having much sensitivity. I imagine I could sew my own stitches without problem.
I don't even consider physical pain to be a serious issue in hell. Not because I fear it, but because I don't. Clearly. Because that is my argument anyway.

Systematically here is the problem tho . . . ALL ARE RESURRECTED . . . good and evil . . . resurrection is the resucitation of the BODY and life again in it.

If God resurrects them for judgement, then ills of the body do not come along with it. Ur lack of sensitivity is re-sensitized. Physical joy or pain WILL be a reality for u, even if it is not NOW. Whether it is joy or pain will be determined by ur allignment to Jesus.

Now, I am not discounting the mental anguish . . . I agree that that is VERY much an aspect . . . I am simply seeking to show you that the mental is not the ONLY aspect. It will not be mere spirits in hell . . . but spirits inhabitting the physically resurrected body of the wicked to which the reality of hell will be HOLILSTICALLY to the entire individual as the reality of heaven to the righteous will be a HOLISTICALLY realized experience.

U got the mental anguish part right . . . just understand that biblically there is a physical reality as well . . . as our eternal reality will encompass who we are holistically, either for good in bliss with God or for ill in pain apart from His favor.

 

[martymonster]

UNfortunately, u seem to forget that the MAN IS DEAD and not part of the resurrected state unto the last judgement. Therefore any "fire" etc that he is experiencing is not a fire effecting flesh in this passage. It is a heat upon the soulish/spiritual existence of the dead man. So, it is perfectly plausible to see torment of heat upon the man and him not burn up.

AND EVEN IF IT WAS PHYSICAL . . . do u not remember the burning bush in Exodus 3 that was ABLAZE yet not consumed?! The judgements of God are indeed supernatural and need not conform to what u think u see in ur daily life. No dice bro.

I'm not forgetting anything.
I'm merely pointing out the inconsistency of those who maintain that the story of Lazarus and the Richman is anything other than a parable.

So if want to take it literally then take it literally but don't just pick and choose which parts are literal
and which part are a symbol for something else.

If you want take it as a parable then take it as a parable but don't be picking and choosing which parts you want take as literal.

To do so is to be taking away and adding to the words that are in this book.

 

[Der Alte]

I'm not forgetting anything.
I'm merely pointing out the inconsistency of those who maintain that the story of Lazarus and the Richman is anything other than a parable.

So if want to take it literally then take it literally but don't just pick and choose which part are a symbol for something for something else.

If you want take it as a parable then take it as a parable but don't be picking and choosing which parts you want take as literal.

To do so is to be taking away and adding to the words that are in this book.

We will do that as soon as you show us where it is written that we must accept everything in the Bible, any Bible Book, chapter, etc. as totally literal or totally figurative? That is why long, long ago scholars stated the maxim, "If the plain sense makes good sense, then it is nonsense to look for any other sense." Just because one thing can be shown to be figurative is not license to declare everything as figurative.

Example, when Jesus called Herod a fox, that did not mean that Herod was actually a fox, it was a figure of speech. And the fact that Jesus used a figure of speech did not mean Jesus casting out devils, and healing people was figurative.

Luk 13:32 And he said unto them, Go ye, and tell that fox, Behold, I cast out devils, and I do cures to day and to morrow, and the third day I shall be perfected.​

 

[SkyWriting]

This is ultimately a ridiculous discussion. There are too many unknowns. Can you say for sure the Lake of Fire (and brimstone) consist of liquid sulfur (brimstone)? Or is it a flammable surface over a lake, water or something else that could have it float? Or is it imagery for something that can not be better described in terms that we are familiar with?

Good questions! You seem to be getting hot over the discussion. I wonder if heated discussion or getting steamed over the situation would additionally raise the temperature. Would people who are mad experience higher temps than those who "remain cool"?

 

[Mathetes the kerux]

I'm not forgetting anything.
I'm merely pointing out the inconsistency of those who maintain that the story of Lazarus and the Richman is anything other than a parable.

So if want to take it literally then take it literally but don't just pick and choose which parts are literal
and which part are a symbol for something else.

If you want take it as a parable then take it as a parable but don't be picking and choosing which parts you want take as literal.

To do so is to be taking away and adding to the words that are in this book.

My point is that even if one were to interpret the passage literally, your point doesnt even work. Find another inconsistency to rail against because the one u selected falters.

My point stands.

 

[Mathetes the kerux]

We will do that as soon as you show us where it is written that we must accept everything in the Bible, any Bible Book, chapter, etc. as totally literal or totally figurative? That is why long, long ago scholars stated the maxim, "If the plain sense makes good sense, then it is nonsense to look for any other sense." Just because one thing can be shown to be figurative is not license to declare everything as figurative.

Example, when Jesus called Herod a fox, that did not mean that Herod was actually a fox, it was a figure of speech. And the fact that Jesus used a figure of speech did not mean Jesus casting out devils, and healing people was figurative.

Luk 13:32 And he said unto them, Go ye, and tell that fox, Behold, I cast out devils, and I do cures to day and to morrow, and the third day I shall be perfected.
​

That is why long, long ago scholars stated the maxim, "If the plain sense makes good sense, then it is nonsense to look for any other sense."

WONDERFUL QUOTE!


Love it love it love it!!!

one of the basic tenets of sound hermeneutics!

Well said DA!

 

[FredVB]

Good questions! You seem to be getting hot over the discussion. I wonder if heated discussion or getting steamed over the situation would additionally raise the temperature. Would people who are mad experience higher temps than those who "remain cool"?

As you say they are good questions, which being the case threw the sensibility of the whole discussion I referred to into question, so I pointed it out. I had no idea I was getting hot over the discussion apart from you mentioning it. Can you say what it is in my post from which you can infer that? And are you saying people in hell getting heated over their situation in being there raises the temperature for them? How is this then fair judgment according to what was done in life here on earth?