Let's Talk About Hell

[Christos Anesti]

Come to think of it though I'm not sure what Father Hopko said was really that different from what I said. He did say that Gods wrath has an objective reality but then again the state of falling away from God has an objective reality too. It wouldn't necessarily imply that wrath has a positive existence within God. I still think what St Antony the Great said is true:

"God is good, dispassionate, and immutable. Now someone who thinks it reasonable and true to affirm that God does not change, may well ask how, in that case, it is possible to speak of God as rejoicing over those who are good and showing mercy to those who honor Him, and as turning away from the wicked and being angry with sinners. To this it must be answered that God neither rejoices nor grows angry, for to rejoice and to be offended are passions; nor is He won over by the gifts of those who honor Him, for that would mean He is swayed by pleasure. It is not right that the Divinity feel pleasure or displeasure from human conditions. He is good, and He only bestows blessings and never does harm, remaining always the same. We men, on the other hand, if we remain good through resembling God, are united to Him, but if we become evil through not resembling God, we are separated from Him. By living in holiness we cleave to God; but by becoming wicked we make Him our enemy. It is not that He grows angry with us in an arbitrary way, but it is our own sins that prevent God from shining within us and expose us to demons who torture us. And if through prayer and acts of compassion we gain release from our sins, this does not mean that we have won God over and made Him to change, but that through our actions and our turning to the Divinity, we have cured our wickedness and so once more have enjoyment of God's goodness. Thus to say that God turns away from the wicked is like saying that the sun hides itself from the blind."

 

[Mathetes the kerux]

The Wrath Of God - Speaking the Truth in Love - Ancient Faith Radio

Someone linked to this lecture by Father Thomas Hopko on the subject. He makes some of the same points I did regarding salvation but he also says that Gods wrath has an objective existence outside of our experience. He also says regarding it's purpose: "The wrath of God is meant to be chastising, chastening, to bring to repentance. God desires the mercy of all, and that’s why in all of the Old Testament Scriptures, the end line, the last line is always: “God will not forsake His people. God will show mercy on them. He will chasten for awhile but in the morning comes joy and gladness. He will forgive. He will show mercy. He will not destroy you forever, even though you hate the bowels of His divine mercy.” God will still be faithful to Himself as St. Paul says. He cannot deny Himself. He’s not going to be a destroyer. He doesn’t desire the death of the wicked as Ezekiel says, but he desires that the wicked would turn from his ways and live" In that sense even His wrath is a mercy and an act of love. I guess that makes sense.


I thought this part was realvent to what we were discussing regarding change and immutability:

"However, our Holy Fathers following Holy Scripture, and this came to a real head in the Palamite Controvery of the Hesychast Fathers in the 13th century, they say: “No, no. Sorry. We don’t follow that. Our God is the Living God. He acts in different ways, at different times, with different people, shows himself different.” In fact St. Gregory of Nyssa, a thousand years before St. Gregory of Palamas, he would of said: “God is different everyday, and he’s really different. He appears to us differently all the time. He acts, he hides, he comes, he goes, he weeps, he shows mercy, he forgives,” and those thing are realities. They’re not just our somehow subjective, human, imaginative, fantasy experiences. God is not the god of Aristotle. He’s not the uncaused cause. He’s not the unmoved mover. He’s not the immobile, static Supreme Being. God is not being at all.

In fact following Gregory of Nyssa, Gregory the Theologian, St. Basil the Great, Maximus the Confessor, and Symeon the New Theologian, St. Gregory the Palamas will say, all that is just baloney. God is not even being. God is beyond being and non-being. He is beyond change and non-change. The Pseudo-Dionysian writings would say that. Dionysius the Pseudo-Areopagite who wrote The Mystical Theology, he says that. God is beyond all these things. He’s completely different. He’s totally different. He’s holy. He dwells in unapproachable light. Nothing on earth can compare to Him as Isaiah says. There’s no way. But when we experience God acting, then we do experience wrath, but we also experience mercy. We know what the wrath of God is like. We know what it is to be in the hands of the living God. We know that God is a consuming fire. But we also know that God is merciful, gracious, slow to anger, abounding in steadfast love and mercy. He will not always chide, and this is what we actually find in the Bible. This is what we claim, that when we read the Bible this is what we find. "

I have Hopko's book on the Spirit actually . . .

but this:

The wrath of God is meant to be chastising, chastening, to bring to repentance.

I cannot agree with. Chastening has to do with bringing someone's repentance . . . k, then why is wrath still a reality for those in hell for eternity? If the purpose, or meaning as he puts it, is to bring repentance, then either:
1. Hell is not eternal but some sort of holding tank to purge the unrighteous until they repent, and now we are Christian Universalists
2. He has a wrong definition of wrath

From my reading, it is the kindness of the Lord that brings repentance. And the chastening of God is ONLY for believers and is called DISCIPLINE not wrath.

God desires the mercy of all, and that’s why in all of the Old Testament Scriptures, the end line, the last line is always: “God will not forsake His people. God will show mercy on them. He will chasten for awhile but in the morning comes joy and gladness. He will forgive. He will show mercy. He will not destroy you forever, even though you hate the bowels of His divine mercy.”

There is a logical contradiction in his statement tho . . . he says that God desires the salvation of all (and He does) but then cites the OT concerning promises FOR GODS PEOPLE OF THE COVENANT . . . not a promise for all. This chasing and pursuing and not forsaking are all promises that He speaks to HIS PEOPLE not the nations.

God will still be faithful to Himself as St. Paul says. He cannot deny Himself.

True, but again He cannot deny HIMSELF is a referrence to Him in HIS PEOPLE . . . not the nations . . . and we know that His people are SPARED from wrath.

He’s not going to be a destroyer.

Yet Peter paints the picture of God surely destroying this world in fire, and revelation depicts the end of the wicked as in a place of torment forever.

He doesn’t desire the death of the wicked as Ezekiel says, but he desires that the wicked would turn from his ways and live

No He does not, but His desire is not the question . . . He will do what is right and tho He would desire for none to perish . . . we kno that many will anyway.

In that sense even His wrath is a mercy and an act of love.

GOOD CALL . . . I believe that His wrath is ALSO an act of love . . . but for His own . . . His Son, His Spirit . . . their beauty and worth . . . and for His own People (remember the slain under the altar crying for justice in Revelation?).

But it is NOT a mercy . . . that is soley for the elect people of God. Wrath and mercy are diametrically opposed. Wrath is the DESERVED consequence of SIN, where as MERCY abates wrath as it is NOT giving one what one deserves . . . namely wrath.

They’re not just our somehow subjective, human, imaginative, fantasy experiences. God is not the god of Aristotle. He’s not the uncaused cause. He’s not the unmoved mover. He’s not the immobile, static Supreme Being

Nice quote.

God is beyond all these things. He’s completely different. He’s totally different. He’s holy. He dwells in unapproachable light. Nothing on earth can compare to Him as Isaiah says. There’s no way. But when we experience God acting, then we do experience wrath, but we also experience mercy.

EVEN BETTER . . . which I why I say that God can be wratful to the reprobate and still love them . . . and why His commands to us to "love your enemy" do not apply to Him . . . NECAUSE THEY APPLY TO US . . . AND HE IS NOTHING LIKE US.

Good stuff man . . . I am really enjoying this exchange BTW.

 

[Mathetes the kerux]

Come to think of it though I'm not sure what Father Hopko said was really that different from what I said. He did say that Gods wrath has an objective reality but then again the state of falling away from God has an objective reality too. It wouldn't necessarily imply that wrath has a positive existence within God. I still think what St Antony the Great said is true:

"God is good, dispassionate, and immutable. Now someone who thinks it reasonable and true to affirm that God does not change, may well ask how, in that case, it is possible to speak of God as rejoicing over those who are good and showing mercy to those who honor Him, and as turning away from the wicked and being angry with sinners. To this it must be answered that God neither rejoices nor grows angry, for to rejoice and to be offended are passions; nor is He won over by the gifts of those who honor Him, for that would mean He is swayed by pleasure. It is not right that the Divinity feel pleasure or displeasure from human conditions. He is good, and He only bestows blessings and never does harm, remaining always the same. We men, on the other hand, if we remain good through resembling God, are united to Him, but if we become evil through not resembling God, we are separated from Him. By living in holiness we cleave to God; but by becoming wicked we make Him our enemy. It is not that He grows angry with us in an arbitrary way, but it is our own sins that prevent God from shining within us and expose us to demons who torture us. And if through prayer and acts of compassion we gain release from our sins, this does not mean that we have won God over and made Him to change, but that through our actions and our turning to the Divinity, we have cured our wickedness and so once more have enjoyment of God's goodness. Thus to say that God turns away from the wicked is like saying that the sun hides itself from the blind."

God is good, dispassionate, and immutable.

To this it must be answered that God neither rejoices nor grows angry, for to rejoice and to be offended are passions;

I just cannot agree . . .
1. Being emotive does not negate immutability
2. The PLETHORA of passages about God's joy cannot be construed as all anthropomorphisms!

Probably the clearest:

John 17:23-24
23 I in them and You in Me, that they may be perfected in unity, so that the world may know that You sent Me, and loved them, even as You have loved Me. 24 "Father, I desire that they also, whom You have given Me, be with Me where I am, so that they may see My glory which You have given Me, for You loved Me before the foundation of the world.
NASU

Here we have the emotive LOVE within Trinity before creation

Matt 25:21
21 "His master said to him, 'Well done, good and faithful slave. You were faithful with a few things, I will put you in charge of many things; enter into the joy of your master.'
NASU

Here is depicted the joy of God in reward to the righteous

John 15:11
These things I have spoken to you so that My joy may be in you, and that your joy may be made full.
NASU

Again the joy of God, granted the incarnation of the Son, but GOD NONETHELESS . . . unless one would argue that Jesus ceases to be God in the incarnation . . .

John 17:13-14
"But now I come to You; and these things I speak in the world so that they may have My joy made full in themselves.
NASU

again the Joy of God.

I can only think that this guy has posited such things because he see a problem with seeing God as full of emotion and also defending His immutability . . . but that is a false dilemma . . . why does that threaten immutability? WHY must God be immutable is the question . . . does "change not" refer to the being of God absolutely? Cant, otherwise He cannot incarnate . . . cause He just changed. Immutability is a concept to protect God's character and deity . . . what He is in moral He will always be and so His promises are always true . . . and He will never cease to be God.

There is NO problem with this and seeing God as full of Joy, esp in eternal rapture in love within Himself. THAT IS THE SCRIPTURAL DEPICTION OF THE RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN THE FATHER AND THE SON.

The whole rest of the comments seem too shot through with some concept of works for me . . . sorry.

 

[Christos Anesti]

From my reading, it is the kindness of the Lord that brings repentance. And the chastening of God is ONLY for believers and is called DISCIPLINE not wrath.

Father Hopko says that it's often against His people that God is shown to be angry or wrathful:

So let’s look at the Bible a bit, from the perspective of the wrath of God. What are the first places that you have God being exceedingly angry? The anger of God was kindled against…Guess who it’s against! It’s against Moses. It’s in Exodus 4 when God is trying to call Moses, and to get Moses to lead the people out of Egypt. Moses says: “I can’t do it. I can’t do it. It is not I, Lord. I can’t do it. Call somebody else. I’m not eloquent. I can’t speak well. I don’t have a good tongue.” Then God says to Moses: “Who made your mouth? Who makes you dumb or deaf or seeing or blind? Is it not, I, says the Lord. Amen Moses. You’re dealing with the Lord God Almighty here. Who do you think you are?” And then God says to him: “I will be your mouth, and I will teach you what you shall speak.” But then Moses he answers God back. He says: “Oh my Lord. Send, I pray, some other person.” And then it says: “The anger of the Lord was akindled against Moses.” And He said:

Is there not Aaron, your brother, the Levite? I know that he can speak well, and behold he is coming out to meet you. And when he sees you, he will be glad in his heart. And you shall speak to me and put the words in his mouth. And I will be with your mouth and with his mouth, and I will teach you what you shall do. And he shall speak to you for the people and he shall be a mouth for you, and you shall be to him as God. And you shall take in your hand this rod, which shall be the sign.
​

So it’s interesting, the wrath of God is kindled against Moses when Moses is standing against God. I’ll give you another example, again using Moses. Moses when his first wife Zipporah dies, he marries a Cushite woman—that means an Ethiopian by the way. And they said: “Has the Lord indeed spoken only through Moses? Maybe he can speak through us also,” Miriam and Aaron say, cause they didn’t like the fact that he married that Ethiopian woman.

Then, the Lord heard it, and He says to Miriam and Aaron: “Now the man Moses was very meek, more so than all the men that were on the face earth.” And suddenly the Lord said to Moses and to Aaron and to Miriam: “Come out, you three! Come out to the Tent of the Meeting.” And the three came out, and then the Lord stood there and he called Aaron and Miriam to come forward and then he said: “Hear my words. If there is a prophet among you, I, the Lord, make myself known to him in a vision. I speak to him in a dream. Not so with my servant, Moses. He is entrusted with all my mouth. With him I shall speak mouth to mouth, clearly and not in dark speech. And he beholds the form of the Lord. Why then were you not afraid to speak against my servant, Moses?” And the anger of the Lord was kindled against them and departed when the cloud removed from over the tent. And then behold, Miriam is leprous.
​

The anger of Lord is akindled against Aaron and Miriam and Miriam gets leprosy, as white as snow.

And then Aaron turns to Miriam and behold sees she is leprous. Then, Aaron says to Moses: “O my Lord, do not punish us cause we have done foolishly and have sinned. Let her not be as one dead of whom the fleshes have consumed when he comes out of his mother’s womb.” Then, Moses cries to the Lord: “Heal her, O God. I beg you, heal her.” And then Miriam is shut up for seven days and she is healed by the intercession of Moses.
​

Now you have a similar story, again with Moses. You have the rebellion of Korah. Korah’s rebellion, where the wrath of God goes forth from God, and the earth opens up and those who made the rebellion against Him are swallowed up in the earth. Then, God says to them: “You shall follow my way and you shall not do what these people did. You shall offer proper sacrifices to the Lord.” And Moses and Aaron come from the Tent of the Meeting, and they stand in the midst of the congregation and they see what the wrath of God produces against those who have sinned against Him.
Then, there’s the famous place that’s even quoted in the Psalter and quoted in the New Testament Scriptures, Letter to the Hebrews, about how Moses has to intercede with God. He has to prostrate before the Lord for forty days and forty nights, not eating bread or drinking water or anything, because of all the sins which the people have committed. “For they did what was evil in the sight of the Lord, and then they provoked Him to anger.” And then Moses said:

I was afraid of the wrath and hot displeasure and anger which the Lord bore against you, the people, and he was ready to destroy you. But the Lord harkened to me that time also. The Lord was so angry with Aaron that he was ready to destroy him, and I prayed for Aaron at that time.
​

And now it says: “I will pray for you.” And then it says: “Not only was at Midian, but at Taberah and Massah, and at Kibroth-hattaavah.” It said: “You, God’s people, provoked the Lord to wrath! You rebelled against the commandment.” Now this is what you have through the entire Old Testament, and it’s incredibly interesting, at least to me, that the wrath of God, virtually every single time, is directed against his own people. You hardly have a sentence where you have the wrath of God directed against the nations. The nations don’t know God. The nations don’t have the law. The nations don’t know what’s going on; They’re in darkness. But God’s people have been made God’s people by being brought out of Egypt. And almost all of those sentences about the wrath of God are directed against the people that He brought out of Egypt, who then forgot Him, who forsook Him, who started worshiping idols, start worshiping a golden cow, who did not keep the commandments. And when you read the Holy Scripture, you see that for the most time, the people of Israel were not keeping God’s commandments, and therefore the wrath of God was on them. The wrath of God is on those who forsake God, forget God, disobey God, are contrary to God, who break the covenant, who forget the covenant.
For example, again in Deuteronomy, you have God saying to these people: “Would the Lord not pardon those who sinned rather than be angry?” He said: “However, the anger of the Lord against the people is greater than that which was against Sodom and Gomorrah,” in the Book of Genesis, with Lot and all those people in Sodom and Gomorrah. He said:

The Lord is more angry. The heat of His great anger is against the people now. Why? Because they forsook the covenant of the Lord, the God of their fathers, which He had made with them when he brought them up out of the land of Egypt. And they went, and they served other gods, and they worshiped these other gods, gods whom they had not known and whom He had not allotted to them. Therefore, the anger of the Lord was kindled against the land and against all the people bringing upon it all the curses written in this book (Deuteronomy). And the Lord uprooted them from their land in anger and fury and great wrath and cast them into another land even unto this day.
​

So this wrath of God is against God’s own people. It’s against God’s own people when they forsake Him, when they do not love Him, when they do not follow Him. And you have this all through the Book of Kings: I, II, III, and IV Kings, which in our English Bible is I and II Samuel and I and II Kings, and the Chronicles which repeat the Kings, basically, in a different way. You have sentences like, I’m reading II Kings: “For great is the wrath of the Lord that is kindled against us because our fathers have not obeyed the words of this book and do according to all that is written concerning us.”

 

[Christos Anesti]

Regarding the torment of those in hell I still have to agree with St Isaac. He was probably one of the most Christ like people in history imo:

Let yourself be persecuted, but do not persecute others.

Be crucified, but do not crucify others.

Se slandered, but do not slander others.

Rejoice with those who rejoice, and weep with those who weep: such is the sign of purity.

Suffer with the sick.

Be afflicted with sinners.

Exult with those who repent.

Be the friend of all, but in your spirit remain alone.

Be a partaker of the sufferings of all, but keep your body distant from all.

Rebuke no one, revile no one, not even those who live very wickedly.

Spread your cloak over those who fall into sin, each and every one, and shield them.

And if you cannot take the fault on yourself and accept punishment in their place, do not destroy their character.

I love this part --> What is a merciful heart? It is a heart on fire for the whole of creation, for humanity, for the birds, for the animals, for demons, and for all that exists. By the recollection of them the eyes of a merciful person pour forth tears in abundance. By the strong and vehement mercy that grips such a person’s heart, and by such great compassion, the heart is humbled and one cannot bear to hear or to see any injury or slight sorrow in any in creation. For this reason, such a person offers up tearful prayer continually even for irrational beasts, for the enemies of the truth, and for those who harm her or him, that they be protected and receive mercy. And in like manner such a person prays for the family of reptiles because of the great compassion that burns without measure in a heart that is in the likeness of God.

The person who is genuinely charitable not only gives charity out of his own possessions, but gladly tolerates injustice from others and forgives them. Whoever lays down his soul for his brother acts generously, rather than the person who demonstrates his generosity by his gifts.

God is not One who requites evil, but who sets evil right.

Paradise is the love of God, wherein is the enjoyment of all blessedness.

The person who lives in love reaps the fruit of life from God, and while yet in this world, even now breathes the air of the resurrection.

In love did God bring the world into existence; in love is God going to bring it to that wondrous transformed state, and in love will the world be swallowed up in the great mystery of the One who has performed all these things; in love will the whole course of the governance of creation be finally comprised.

Question: When is a person sure of having arrived at purity?

Answer: When that person considers all human beings are good, and no created thing appears impure or defiled. Then a person is truly pure in heart.

Love is sweeter than life.

Sweeter still, sweeter than honey and the honeycomb is the awareness of God whence love is born.

Love is not loath to accept the hardest of deaths for those it loves.

Love is the child of knowledge.

Lord, fill my heart with eternal life.

As for me I say that those who are tormented in hell are tormented by the invasion of love. What is there more bitter and violent than the pains of love? Those who feel they have sinned against love bear in themselves a damnation much heavier than the most dreaded punishments. The suffering with which sinning against love afflicts the heart is more keenly felt than any other torment. It is absurd to assume that the sinners in hell are deprived of God’s love. Love is offered impartially. But by its very power it acts in two ways. It torments sinners, as happens here on earth when we are tormented by the presence of a friend to whom we have been unfaithful. And it gives joy to those who have been faithful.

That is what the torment of hell is in my opinion: remorse. But love inebriates the souls of the sons and daughters of heaven by its delectability.

If zeal had been appropriate for putting humanity right, why did God the Word clothe himself in the body, using gentleness and humility in order to bring the world back to his Father?

Sin is the fruit of free will. There was a time when sin did not exist, and there will be a time when it will not exist.

God’s recompense to sinners is that, instead of a just recompense, God rewards them with resurrection.

O wonder! The Creator clothed in a human being enters the house of tax collectors and prostitutes. Thus the entire universe, through the beauty of the sight of him, was drawn by his love to the single confession of God, the Lord of all.

“Will God, if I ask, forgive me these things by which I am pained and by whose memory I am tormented, things by which, though I abhor them, I go on backsliding? Yet after they have taken place the pain they give me is even greater than that of a scorpion’s sting. Though I abhor them, I am still in the middle of them, and when I repent of them with suffering I wretchedly return to them again.”

This is how many God-fearing people think, people who foster virtue and are pricked with the suffering of compunction, who mourn over their sin; They live between sin and repentance all the time. Let us not be in doubt, O fellow humanity, concerning the hope of our salvation, seeing that the One who bore sufferings for our sakes is very concerned about our salvation; God’s mercifulness is far more extensive than we can conceive, God’s grace is greater than what we ask for.

When we find love, we partake of heavenly bread and are made strong without labor and toil. The heavenly bread is Christ, who came down from heaven and gave life to the world. This is the nourishment of angels. The person who has found love eats and drinks Christ every day and every hour and is thereby made immortal. …When we hear Jesus say, “Ye shall eat and drink at the table of my kingdom,” what do we suppose we shall eat, if not love? Love, rather than food and drink, is sufficient to nourish a person. This is the wine “which maketh glad the heart.” Blessed is the one who partakes of this wine! Licentious people have drunk this wine and become chaste; sinners have drunk it and have forgotten the pathways of stumbling; drunkards have drunk this wine and become fasters; the rich have drunk it and desired poverty, the poor have drunk it and been enriched with hope; the sick have drunk it and become strong; the unlearned have taken it and become wise.

Repentance is given us as grace after grace, for repentance is a second regeneration by God. That of which we have received an earnest by baptism, we receive as a gift by means of repentance. Repentance is the door of mercy, opened to those who seek it. By this door we enter into the mercy of God, and apart from this entrance we shall not find mercy.

Blessed is God who uses corporeal objects continually to draw us close in a symbolic way to a knowledge of God’s invisible nature. O name of Jesus, key to all gifts, open up for me the great door to your treasure-house, that I may enter and praise you with the praise that comes from the heart.

O my Hope, pour into my heart the inebriation that consists in the hope of you. O Jesus Christ, the resurrection and light of all worlds, place upon my soul’s head the crown of knowledge of you; open before me all of a sudden the door of mercies, cause the rays of your grace to shine out in my heart.

O Christ, who are covered with light as though with a garment, who for my sake stood naked in front of Pilate, clothe me with that might which you caused to overshadow the saints, whereby they conquered this world of struggle. May your Divinity, Lord, take pleasure in me, and lead me above the world to be with you.

I give praise to your holy Nature, Lord, for you have made my nature a sanctuary for your hiddenness and a tabernacle for your holy mysteries, a place where you can dwell, and a holy temple for your Divinity -St Isaac of Syria

 

[Mathetes the kerux]

Father Hopko says that it's often against His people that God is shown to be angry or wrathful:

So let’s look at the Bible a bit, from the perspective of the wrath of God. What are the first places that you have God being exceedingly angry? The anger of God was kindled against…Guess who it’s against! It’s against Moses. It’s in Exodus 4 when God is trying to call Moses, and to get Moses to lead the people out of Egypt. Moses says: “I can’t do it. I can’t do it. It is not I, Lord. I can’t do it. Call somebody else. I’m not eloquent. I can’t speak well. I don’t have a good tongue.” Then God says to Moses: “Who made your mouth? Who makes you dumb or deaf or seeing or blind? Is it not, I, says the Lord. Amen Moses. You’re dealing with the Lord God Almighty here. Who do you think you are?” And then God says to him: “I will be your mouth, and I will teach you what you shall speak.” But then Moses he answers God back. He says: “Oh my Lord. Send, I pray, some other person.” And then it says: “The anger of the Lord was akindled against Moses.” And He said:

Is there not Aaron, your brother, the Levite? I know that he can speak well, and behold he is coming out to meet you. And when he sees you, he will be glad in his heart. And you shall speak to me and put the words in his mouth. And I will be with your mouth and with his mouth, and I will teach you what you shall do. And he shall speak to you for the people and he shall be a mouth for you, and you shall be to him as God. And you shall take in your hand this rod, which shall be the sign.
​

So it’s interesting, the wrath of God is kindled against Moses when Moses is standing against God. I’ll give you another example, again using Moses. Moses when his first wife Zipporah dies, he marries a Cushite woman—that means an Ethiopian by the way. And they said: “Has the Lord indeed spoken only through Moses? Maybe he can speak through us also,” Miriam and Aaron say, cause they didn’t like the fact that he married that Ethiopian woman.

Then, the Lord heard it, and He says to Miriam and Aaron: “Now the man Moses was very meek, more so than all the men that were on the face earth.” And suddenly the Lord said to Moses and to Aaron and to Miriam: “Come out, you three! Come out to the Tent of the Meeting.” And the three came out, and then the Lord stood there and he called Aaron and Miriam to come forward and then he said: “Hear my words. If there is a prophet among you, I, the Lord, make myself known to him in a vision. I speak to him in a dream. Not so with my servant, Moses. He is entrusted with all my mouth. With him I shall speak mouth to mouth, clearly and not in dark speech. And he beholds the form of the Lord. Why then were you not afraid to speak against my servant, Moses?” And the anger of the Lord was kindled against them and departed when the cloud removed from over the tent. And then behold, Miriam is leprous.
​

The anger of Lord is akindled against Aaron and Miriam and Miriam gets leprosy, as white as snow.

And then Aaron turns to Miriam and behold sees she is leprous. Then, Aaron says to Moses: “O my Lord, do not punish us cause we have done foolishly and have sinned. Let her not be as one dead of whom the fleshes have consumed when he comes out of his mother’s womb.” Then, Moses cries to the Lord: “Heal her, O God. I beg you, heal her.” And then Miriam is shut up for seven days and she is healed by the intercession of Moses.
​

Now you have a similar story, again with Moses. You have the rebellion of Korah. Korah’s rebellion, where the wrath of God goes forth from God, and the earth opens up and those who made the rebellion against Him are swallowed up in the earth. Then, God says to them: “You shall follow my way and you shall not do what these people did. You shall offer proper sacrifices to the Lord.” And Moses and Aaron come from the Tent of the Meeting, and they stand in the midst of the congregation and they see what the wrath of God produces against those who have sinned against Him.
Then, there’s the famous place that’s even quoted in the Psalter and quoted in the New Testament Scriptures, Letter to the Hebrews, about how Moses has to intercede with God. He has to prostrate before the Lord for forty days and forty nights, not eating bread or drinking water or anything, because of all the sins which the people have committed. “For they did what was evil in the sight of the Lord, and then they provoked Him to anger.” And then Moses said:

I was afraid of the wrath and hot displeasure and anger which the Lord bore against you, the people, and he was ready to destroy you. But the Lord harkened to me that time also. The Lord was so angry with Aaron that he was ready to destroy him, and I prayed for Aaron at that time.
​

And now it says: “I will pray for you.” And then it says: “Not only was at Midian, but at Taberah and Massah, and at Kibroth-hattaavah.” It said: “You, God’s people, provoked the Lord to wrath! You rebelled against the commandment.” Now this is what you have through the entire Old Testament, and it’s incredibly interesting, at least to me, that the wrath of God, virtually every single time, is directed against his own people. You hardly have a sentence where you have the wrath of God directed against the nations. The nations don’t know God. The nations don’t have the law. The nations don’t know what’s going on; They’re in darkness. But God’s people have been made God’s people by being brought out of Egypt. And almost all of those sentences about the wrath of God are directed against the people that He brought out of Egypt, who then forgot Him, who forsook Him, who started worshiping idols, start worshiping a golden cow, who did not keep the commandments. And when you read the Holy Scripture, you see that for the most time, the people of Israel were not keeping God’s commandments, and therefore the wrath of God was on them. The wrath of God is on those who forsake God, forget God, disobey God, are contrary to God, who break the covenant, who forget the covenant.
For example, again in Deuteronomy, you have God saying to these people: “Would the Lord not pardon those who sinned rather than be angry?” He said: “However, the anger of the Lord against the people is greater than that which was against Sodom and Gomorrah,” in the Book of Genesis, with Lot and all those people in Sodom and Gomorrah. He said:

The Lord is more angry. The heat of His great anger is against the people now. Why? Because they forsook the covenant of the Lord, the God of their fathers, which He had made with them when he brought them up out of the land of Egypt. And they went, and they served other gods, and they worshiped these other gods, gods whom they had not known and whom He had not allotted to them. Therefore, the anger of the Lord was kindled against the land and against all the people bringing upon it all the curses written in this book (Deuteronomy). And the Lord uprooted them from their land in anger and fury and great wrath and cast them into another land even unto this day.
​

So this wrath of God is against God’s own people. It’s against God’s own people when they forsake Him, when they do not love Him, when they do not follow Him. And you have this all through the Book of Kings: I, II, III, and IV Kings, which in our English Bible is I and II Samuel and I and II Kings, and the Chronicles which repeat the Kings, basically, in a different way. You have sentences like, I’m reading II Kings: “For great is the wrath of the Lord that is kindled against us because our fathers have not obeyed the words of this book and do according to all that is written concerning us.”

So this wrath of God is against God’s own people. It’s against God’s own people when they forsake Him, when they do not love Him, when they do not follow Him.

1. Anger is not the same as wrath. One, anger, is displeasure, the other, wrath is a NT theological concept associated with the final judgement of the wicked.
2. If we think that the Bible is not in error (and I believe that u and I are in agreement here) then we must color these OT verses by:

1 Thess 5:9-11
9 For God has not destined us forwrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, 10 who died for us, so that whether we are awake or asleep, we will live together with Him.
NASU

Rom 1:18-19
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,
NASU

Rom 2:5-9
5 But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6 who WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS: 7 to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life; 8 but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation.
NASU

Where we see wrath as an eschatological concept linked with the wicked EXCLUSIVELY in the final Judgement.

So God's displeasure with Moses and Aaron and the like in ANGER is not connected to a biblical hermeneutic concerning wrath as a NT theological term. They are not synonyms.

The wrath which I speak of is this wrath . . . the objective judgement of God against wickedness, not the expression of displeasure with His people.

Knowing that there is a peculiar NT usage concerning wrath, the OT wording is either
1. Used in a different concept (as in anger, displeasure and cannot be foisted onto the NT eschatologial concept as they are not the same)
2. Contextually is against the wicked, tho they be apart of physical Israel, really are not God's people at all, and will not be part of the remnant concepts in the OT . . . and thusly DO in fact experience God's wrath because they are really not SPIRITUALLY Israel.

 

[Christos Anesti]

I didn't want to find a mod and have them move it so I just started the same thread in St Justin Martyr's area so you could join in too.

http://www.christianforums.com/t7466953/#post54707851

 

[brinny]

God does not love the wicked. Those who love their sin, who rejected the costly sacrifice of His only begotten Son, are not beloved of God. God laughs at the wicked. It is written.

God is not a benign marshmallow of sentimentality. He is holy.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

God does not love the wicked. Those who love their sin, who rejected the costly sacrifice of His only begotten Son, are not beloved of God. God laughs at the wicked. It is written.

God is not a benign marshmallow of sentimentality. He is holy.

NKJV) Proverbs 1:26 I also will laugh at your calamity; I will mock when your terror comes,

KJV) Psalms 2:4 He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh, the Lord shall have them in derision.

Reve 6:16 And they are saying to the mountains and to the rocks 'be falling upon us! and hide us! from Face of the One sitting upon the Throne, and from the wrath of the Lambkin
17 that came the day, the great, of the wrath of Him, and who is able to stand'.
[Hosea 10:8/Luke 23:30]

http://www.christianforums.com/t7435912-5/#post54001293
Face of One sitting upon the throne Reve 6/20

 

[Christos Anesti]

God does not love the wicked.

Sure He does. Thats why he died for the wicked. Thats why he asked for the foriveness of the very people putting Him on the cross. What could be more wicked than that? If he didn't love sinners and the wicked then I would be in big trouble. I tend to think we all would be for that matter.

God is not a benign marshmallow of sentimentality. He is holy

What does "holy" mean? Compassion and invariable / unchanging love is an aspect of holliness. God is all about love and self sacrafice. The very mode of Trinitarian being is one of sacrafice. The Father gives His very being to His son, etc... God gives of His very energies to man.

 

[Mathetes the kerux]

I didn't want to find a mod and have them move it so I just started the same thread in St Justin Martyr's area so you could join in too.

http://www.christianforums.com/t7466953/#post54707851

ty

 

[Duckybill]

Has anyone who doesn't believe in eternal punishment in Hell Fire said where the wicked will spend eternity?

 

[The Penitent Man]

Some people on CF are in serious denial over that.

 

[SkyWriting]

Has anyone who doesn't believe in eternal punishment in Hell Fire said where the wicked will spend eternity?

There is no mention of torture in regards to hell.
It is where people will not be with God for eternity.
I'm not suggesting that this is in any way without the pain
and torment written.

But the pain is all internal to the individual person.
And in their "mind" so to speak.

 

[Mathetes the kerux]

There is no mention of torture in regards to hell.
It is where people will not be with God for eternity.
I'm not suggesting that this is in any way without the pain
and torment written.

But the pain is all internal to the individual person.
And in their "mind" so to speak.

I have heard this before and I dont think that it is reconcilable with Scripture.

Reason:

The wrath of God for sinners is an objective reality . . . it is not an internal self imposed reality (Romans 5).

Also there is no such thing as "not with God" He permeates EVERYTHING . . . there IS, however, in favor with God and out of favor with God.

But the biggest issue is that the wrath and torment is an objective reality apart from the person . . . this being the case, the "suffering" in hell is not merely of the persons own making.

Luke 16 does not allow this either.

 

[Mathetes the kerux]

Has anyone who doesn't believe in eternal punishment in Hell Fire said where the wicked will spend eternity?

There are two camps:

1. That the wicked are purged in Hell until they repent and are then allowed into heaven (what is called Christian Universalism) . . . or some variant of this concept . . . where kolasin is seen redemptive.

2. What is called anihillationism where the wicked cease to exist.

 

[HolyGuardianAngels]

I don't believe in the fire torment pit of hell. I believe that "hell" is the darkness outside of heaven where the evil souls are because they can't get into heaven, and because they are evil they torment eachother. But, not a pit of fire. I just don't believe that God would create such a place and then threaten to send people there to roast forever. O course, I could be wrong, it's just my own opinion.

What do you think?

According to the Gospels, there is a place where "the worm dies not...", it is a place of great suffering. Any one can end up there who dies in SIN.

 

[SkyWriting]

According to the Gospels, there is a place where "the worm dies not...", it is a place of great suffering. Any one can end up there who dies in SIN.

Granted. But similar to on Earth, the great suffering is self induced.
Not an external influence. Misery by choice. The difference being
no chocolate or alcohol to dull the senses and lend comfort.

 

[Christos Anesti]

Holy Guardian Angel: According to the Gospels, there is a place where "the worm dies not...", it is a place of great suffering. Any one can end up there who dies in SIN.

I don't see the worms as being physical creatures that God created specifically to torment people though. One of the friends of St Seraphim of Sarov experienced these worms while still alive for example. I will have to find it and post it.

Mathetes...:Also there is no such thing as "not with God" He permeates EVERYTHING .

Good point. Without some connection with God one would have no being to begin with. We are not immortal by nature but by grace. Christ grants resurection to everyone. Its His presence that bring both wrath/ hell and beatitude. The fiery love of God that can bring blessedness to those who are "attuned to him" (so to speak) and bring painful wrath and buring toward those who reject him. Personally I think there is both an objective and subjective side to it. This only make sense because heaven and hell are relationships between the Trinity and the human person/s. All relations have subjective elements. Then again I'm not sure if it's possible to easily break things down into neat philosophical or rational catagories like "objective" and "subjective".

 

[Mathetes the kerux]

I don't see the worms as being physical creatures that God created specifically to torment people though. One of the friends of St Seraphim of Sarov experienced these worms while still alive for example. I will have to find it and post it.



Good point. Without some connection with God one would have no being to begin with. We are not immortal by nature but by grace. Christ grants resurection to everyone. Its His presence that bring both wrath/ hell and beatitude. The fiery love of God that can bring blessedness to those who are "attuned to him" (so to speak) and bring painful wrath and buring toward those who reject him. Personally I think there is both an objective and subjective side to it. This only make sense because heaven and hell are relationships between the Trinity and the human person/s. All relations have subjective elements. Then again I'm not sure if it's possible to easily break things down into neat philosophical or rational catagories like "objective" and "subjective".

I just must say that I am blessed to see the growth that I sense and read in this!

Personally I think there is both an objective and subjective side to it.

Amen!

Not only do I believe that one will objectively experience the wrath of God, I think that bitterness and rejection of God will be actualized in the soul . . . so that tho they are being tormented objectively, they are also being tormented subjectively in that tho they burn, they will still never choose to love God . . . EEKS . . . that is scary indeed.

My Pastor has said, in addition to the physicality of hell, that he could not imagine a more hellish reality to spend eternity seeing what your life here and in bliss with Jesus could have been like! WOW!