Let's Talk About Hell

[JasoNnnN]

Jesus mentions hell and fire. My faith is in him.

But anyone who says, 'You fool!' will be in danger of the fire of hell."

 

[Bick]

Hi Der Alter.

I would agree that the Jewish philosophers and Rabbis saw the fires of Gehenna as figurative of the fires of "hell", but that, along with all their other speculations concerning man having an eternal soul, IMO, is wrong.

Undoubtedly, the ancients must have been influenced by the false teachings and philosophies during the 70 years they were captives in Babylon.

Yet, in Jesus day, he critisized the Jewish leaders because, they were ignoring what was taught in the law and the prophets substituting their many traditions.

For instance: Concerning "soul" and "death".

SOUL: A separate soul was not joined to a prepared body. Man became a living soul (being) when the breath of life was breathed into his nostrils (Gen.2:7).
Through his soul (senses) man is capable of experiencing life. Not like a tree, for instance, which is a created thing but incapable of experiencing life.

The soul is said to be in the blood:

Gen. 9:3-6, Every thing that liveth shall be meat for you....but the flesh with the soul (life-AV) thereof, which is the blood thereof, thou shall not eat." See also Gen. 9:4, 5 ,6; Lev.17:11, 14; Deut. 12:20-24; Ez.22:27.

Many times the soul is said to die or be dead:

Lev. 24:17 "And he that killeth any man (soul--nephesh, Heb) shall surely be put to death."
Num. 23:10, "Let me (my soul) die the death of the righteous."
See also Josh. 10:28,30,32,35,37,39; 11:11; Jer.2:34; Ez. 13:19; 22:25-27; and one that is oft quoted:

"THE SOUL THAT SINNETH IT SHALL DIE" Ez. 18:4, AV.

Now, I ask, if the Jewish Rabbiis and philosophers read these and other scriptures, how could they dream up that man's soul is "immortal"?

Some OT scriptures concering DEATH:

The Lord God told Adam, "You are dust and to dust shall you return" Gen.3:19.
Job.10:9 "...unto dust shall you cause me to return."
Psa. 90:3 "...you cause me to return to dust."
Eccl. 12:7 "Man goes to his age-abiding home, and the dust returns to the earth as it was, and the spirit returns to God who gave it." YLT.

In death there is not knowledge, no remembrance, no praise:

Psa 6:5 "For in death there is no remembrance of thee; in Sheol who can give you praise?"
Psa. 115:17 "The dead praise not the Lord, neither any that go down into silence."
See also Psa. 30:9, 88:10-12; Eccl.9:5; Isa. 38:18, and others.

"Sleep" is figurative for "DEATH":

Psa. 13:3 "Consider and answer me, O Jehovah my God: Lighten mine eyes lest I sleep the sleep of death.." RSV. See also Jer.51:7; Dan. 12:1-2 and others.

Again, I contend, the traditional views of "immortal soul" and "alive during death" dreamed up by the Jewish leaders are wrong, for they go against the law and the prophets.

As for the "fires of Gehenna", since Gehenna, during Jesus earthly ministry, was the trash heap outside the walls of Jerusalem, where the fire was unquenched as long as there was something to burn, being convicted of breaking the law could be very serious. One could be sentenced by the elders (Sanhedren) to those fires. He would first be stoned to death and then his body cast into Gehenna, where what wasn't burned up, the maggots would eat. It was so important for a Jew to be buried with his family---to have no burial and the body burned and eaten by worms was the worst kind of sentence.

Thus, Gehenna is not a mystical place inside the earth somewhere.

This is what Jesus warned his disciples and the multitudes about.
See: Matt. 5:22,29,30; 10:28; 18:9; 23:15; 23:33; Mk. 9:43,45,47; and Luke 12:5.
All these verse here "hell" is used is "Gehenna" (or geenna) in the Greek text.

IMO, from the context of the above verses, a burning trash dump (Gehenna) will be outside the walls of the restored Jerusalem in the Messianic Kingdom.

 

[Der Alte]

Hi Der Alter.

I would agree that the Jewish philosophers and Rabbis saw the fires of Gehenna as figurative of the fires of "hell", but that, along with all their other speculations concerning man having an eternal soul, IMO, is wrong.

Undoubtedly, the ancients must have been influenced by the false teachings and philosophies during the 70 years they were captives in Babylon.

Yet, in Jesus day, he critisized the Jewish leaders because, they were ignoring what was taught in the law and the prophets substituting their many traditions.

I notice you state your opinion and speculate rather than posting what scripture states. Here are three of my, back to back, previous posts in this thread. Read the Jewish Encyclopedia article, note the scripture in blue, and explain to me how Babylonian false teachings and philosophies got recorded in scripture? Is there anywhere in the Gospels where Jesus specifically condemned the view of eternal punishment held by the Rabbinical schools of his day, i.e. Hillel and Shammai? Or does his teaching on this subject mirror what is recorded in the Jewish Encyclopedia?

Jewish Encyclopedia – Gehenna

http://www.christianforums.com/t7463551-9/#post54618313

Twenty Eight passages, in the order they occur in the N.T., Jesus speaking on the fate of the unrighteous.

http://www.christianforums.com/t7463551-9/#post54618356

http://www.christianforums.com/t7463551-9/#post54618368

For instance: Concerning "soul" and "death".

SOUL: A separate soul was not joined to a prepared body. Man became a living soul (being) when the breath of life was breathed into his nostrils (Gen.2:7).
Through his soul (senses) man is capable of experiencing life. Not like a tree, for instance, which is a created thing but incapable of experiencing life.

The soul is said to be in the blood:

Gen. 9:3-6, Every thing that liveth shall be meat for you....but the flesh with the soul (life-AV) thereof, which is the blood thereof, thou shall not eat." See also Gen. 9:4, 5 ,6; Lev.17:11, 14; Deut. 12:20-24; Ez.22:27.

As with all who post the same argument you are adept at quoting the verses which seem to support your assumptions/presuppositions, while ignoring the verses which contradict you.

Many times the soul is said to die or be dead:

Lev. 24:17 "And he that killeth any man (soul--nephesh, Heb) shall surely be put to death."
Num. 23:10, "Let me (my soul) die the death of the righteous."
See also Josh. 10:28,30,32,35,37,39; 11:11; Jer.2:34; Ez. 13:19; 22:25-27; and one that is oft quoted:

"THE SOUL THAT SINNETH IT SHALL DIE" Ez. 18:4, AV.

Man cannot kill a soul, therefore in that proof text "soul" is a metonymy for person.

Mat 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.​

Only God can kill the soul but AFAIK there is not one instance in the Bible where God has done so.

Now, I ask, if the Jewish Rabbiis and philosophers read these and other scriptures, how could they dream up that man's soul is "immortal"?

Read the Gehenna article and find out instead of blanket condemning them based on your assumptions/presuppositions.

Some OT scriptures concering DEATH:
The Lord God told Adam, "You are dust and to dust shall you return" Gen.3:19.
Job.10:9 "...unto dust shall you cause me to return."
Psa. 90:3 "...you cause me to return to dust."
Eccl. 12:7 "Man goes to his age-abiding home, and the dust returns to the earth as it was, and the spirit returns to God who gave it." YLT.

Note Ecc 12:7 "the spirit returns to God who gave it." No problem with the body being buried in the dust.

In death there is not knowledge, no remembrance, no praise:

Psa 6:5 "For in death there is no remembrance of thee; in Sheol who can give you praise?"
Psa. 115:17 "The dead praise not the Lord, neither any that go down into silence."
See also Psa. 30:9, 88:10-12; Eccl.9:5; Isa. 38:18, and others.

Songs in praise of God, often using figurative language, written from the POV of a mortal man's direct observation and none of them saying, "Thus saith the Lord."

"Sleep" is figurative for "DEATH":

Psa. 13:3 "Consider and answer me, O Jehovah my God: Lighten mine eyes lest I sleep the sleep of death.." RSV. See also Jer.51:7; Dan. 12:1-2 and others.

Yes figurative NOT literal. Death is not sleep and sleep is not death!

Again, I contend, the traditional views of "immortal soul" and "alive during death" dreamed up by the Jewish leaders are wrong, for they go against the law and the prophets.

Thank you for your unsupported opinion. Where does the view expressed in the Jewish Encyclopedia, assuming you read it, "go against the law and the prophets?"

As for the "fires of Gehenna", since Gehenna, during Jesus earthly ministry, was the trash heap outside the walls of Jerusalem, where the fire was unquenched as long as there was something to burn, being convicted of breaking the law could be very serious. One could be sentenced by the elders (Sanhedren) to those fires. He would first be stoned to death and then his body cast into Gehenna, where what wasn't burned up, the maggots would eat. It was so important for a Jew to be buried with his family---to have no burial and the body burned and eaten by worms was the worst kind of sentence.

Thus, Gehenna is not a mystical place inside the earth somewhere.

This is what Jesus warned his disciples and the multitudes about.
See: Matt. 5:22,29,30; 10:28; 18:9; 23:15; 23:33; Mk. 9:43,45,47; and Luke 12:5.
All these verse here "hell" is used is "Gehenna" (or geenna) in the Greek text.

Do you have any credible, verifiable, historical evidence which supports that Gehenna was still a constantly burning trash dump at the time of Jesus? See Jewish Encyclopedia article for a documented history of Gehenna/valley of Hinnom.

IMO, from the context of the above verses, a burning trash dump (Gehenna) will be outside the walls of the restored Jerusalem in the Messianic Kingdom.

Thanks again for you unsupported opinion. You will note I support my arguments with evidence.

 

[Der Alte]

[ . . . ]Many times the soul is said to die or be dead:

Lev. 24:17 "And he that killeth any man (soul--nephesh, Heb) shall surely be put to death."
Num. 23:10, "Let me (my soul) die the death of the righteous."
See also Josh. 10:28,30,32,35,37,39; 11:11; Jer.2:34; Ez. 13:19; 22:25-27; and one that is oft quoted:

"THE SOUL THAT SINNETH IT SHALL DIE" Ez. 18:4, AV.

Now, I ask, if the Jewish Rabbiis and philosophers read these and other scriptures, how could they dream up that man's soul is "immortal"?[ . . . ]

In Isaiah 14 there is a long passage about the king of Babylon dying, and according to some arguments the dead know nothing.

Isa 14:9-11 (KJV)
9) Hell from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations.
10) All they shall speak and say unto thee, Art thou also become weak as we? art thou become like unto us?
11) Thy pomp is brought down to the grave, and the noise of thy viols: the worm is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee.​

In this passage God, himself is speaking, and I see a whole lot of shaking going on, moving, rising up, and speaking in [size=+1]שאול/Sheol. These dead people seem to know something, about something. We know that verses 11 through 14 describe actual historical events.

Here is another passage where God himself is speaking and people who are dead in sheol, speaking.

Ezek 32:18-22 (KJV)
18) Son of man, wail for the multitude of Egypt, and cast them down, even her, and the daughters of the famous nations, unto the nether parts of the earth, with them that go down into the pit.
19) Whom dost thou pass in beauty? go down, and be thou laid with the uncircumcised.
20) They shall fall in the midst of them that are slain by the sword: she is delivered to the sword: draw her and all her multitudes.
21) The strong among the mighty shall speak to him out of the midst of hell with them that help him: they are gone down, they lie uncircumcised, slain by the sword.
22) Asshur is there and all her company: his graves are about him: all of them slain, fallen by the sword:​

When the Jewish Rabbis and philosophers read these and other scriptures, how could they not believe that man's soul is "immortal", and that the dead were somehow conscious and aware after death?

Jesus speaking about a dead man in Hades who had eyes, was in torment, saw Abraham, “cried and said,” asked for water, begged Abraham, etc.

Luk 16:22-28
(22) And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
(23) And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
(24) And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
(25) But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
(26) And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
(27) Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
(28) For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.​

[/SIZE]

 

[laconicstudent]

​

"An ever-burning Gehenna and the punishment of being devoured by living flames will consume the condemned; nor will thee be any way in which the tormented can ever have respite or be at an end. Souls along with their bodies will be preserved for suffering in unlimited agonies. . . . The grief at punishment will then be without the fruit of repentance; weeping will be useless, and prayer ineffectual. Too late will they believe in eternal punishment, who would not believe in eternal life".

"I am not ignorant of the fact that many, in the consciousness of what they deserve, would rather hope than actually believe that there is nothing for them after death. They would prefer to be annihilated rather than be restored for punishment. . . . Nor is there either measure nor end to these torments. That clever fire burns the limbs and restores them, wears them away and yet sustains them, just as fiery thunderbolts strike bodies but do not consume them"

 

[Mathetes the kerux]

I don't believe in the fire torment pit of hell. I believe that "hell" is the darkness outside of heaven where the evil souls are because they can't get into heaven, and because they are evil they torment eachother. But, not a pit of fire. I just don't believe that God would create such a place and then threaten to send people there to roast forever. O course, I could be wrong, it's just my own opinion.

What do you think?

I think that Rev 20 and Matt 25 are clear that there is an active torment that certainly includes fire. Not to mention "where the worm never dies and the fire never goes out" of Mark 9.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

I think that Rev 20 and Matt 25 are clear that there is an active torment that certainly includes fire. Not to mention "where the worm never dies and the fire never goes out" of Mark 9.

And the Smoke never ceases to ascend

http://www.christianforums.com/t7434988/#post54650801

Revelation 14:11 And the Smoke of the tormenting of Them is ascending into Ages to-Ages..........
[Luke 16:24,26]

Reve 19:3 And a second-time they have declared "allelouia and the Smoke of Her is ascending into the Ages of the Ages".
[Luke 19:41,44]

 

[Mathetes the kerux]

Hi Der Alter.

I would agree that the Jewish philosophers and Rabbis saw the fires of Gehenna as figurative of the fires of "hell", but that, along with all their other speculations concerning man having an eternal soul, IMO, is wrong.

Undoubtedly, the ancients must have been influenced by the false teachings and philosophies during the 70 years they were captives in Babylon.

Yet, in Jesus day, he critisized the Jewish leaders because, they were ignoring what was taught in the law and the prophets substituting their many traditions.

For instance: Concerning "soul" and "death".

SOUL: A separate soul was not joined to a prepared body. Man became a living soul (being) when the breath of life was breathed into his nostrils (Gen.2:7).
Through his soul (senses) man is capable of experiencing life. Not like a tree, for instance, which is a created thing but incapable of experiencing life.

The soul is said to be in the blood:

Gen. 9:3-6, Every thing that liveth shall be meat for you....but the flesh with the soul (life-AV) thereof, which is the blood thereof, thou shall not eat." See also Gen. 9:4, 5 ,6; Lev.17:11, 14; Deut. 12:20-24; Ez.22:27.

Many times the soul is said to die or be dead:

Lev. 24:17 "And he that killeth any man (soul--nephesh, Heb) shall surely be put to death."
Num. 23:10, "Let me (my soul) die the death of the righteous."
See also Josh. 10:28,30,32,35,37,39; 11:11; Jer.2:34; Ez. 13:19; 22:25-27; and one that is oft quoted:

"THE SOUL THAT SINNETH IT SHALL DIE" Ez. 18:4, AV.

Now, I ask, if the Jewish Rabbiis and philosophers read these and other scriptures, how could they dream up that man's soul is "immortal"?

Some OT scriptures concering DEATH:

The Lord God told Adam, "You are dust and to dust shall you return" Gen.3:19.
Job.10:9 "...unto dust shall you cause me to return."
Psa. 90:3 "...you cause me to return to dust."
Eccl. 12:7 "Man goes to his age-abiding home, and the dust returns to the earth as it was, and the spirit returns to God who gave it." YLT.

In death there is not knowledge, no remembrance, no praise:

Psa 6:5 "For in death there is no remembrance of thee; in Sheol who can give you praise?"
Psa. 115:17 "The dead praise not the Lord, neither any that go down into silence."
See also Psa. 30:9, 88:10-12; Eccl.9:5; Isa. 38:18, and others.

"Sleep" is figurative for "DEATH":

Psa. 13:3 "Consider and answer me, O Jehovah my God: Lighten mine eyes lest I sleep the sleep of death.." RSV. See also Jer.51:7; Dan. 12:1-2 and others.

Again, I contend, the traditional views of "immortal soul" and "alive during death" dreamed up by the Jewish leaders are wrong, for they go against the law and the prophets.

As for the "fires of Gehenna", since Gehenna, during Jesus earthly ministry, was the trash heap outside the walls of Jerusalem, where the fire was unquenched as long as there was something to burn, being convicted of breaking the law could be very serious. One could be sentenced by the elders (Sanhedren) to those fires. He would first be stoned to death and then his body cast into Gehenna, where what wasn't burned up, the maggots would eat. It was so important for a Jew to be buried with his family---to have no burial and the body burned and eaten by worms was the worst kind of sentence.

Thus, Gehenna is not a mystical place inside the earth somewhere.

This is what Jesus warned his disciples and the multitudes about.
See: Matt. 5:22,29,30; 10:28; 18:9; 23:15; 23:33; Mk. 9:43,45,47; and Luke 12:5.
All these verse here "hell" is used is "Gehenna" (or geenna) in the Greek text.

IMO, from the context of the above verses, a burning trash dump (Gehenna) will be outside the walls of the restored Jerusalem in the Messianic Kingdom.

Well, hermeneutucally, you must not interpret scripture in a vacuum . . . it must be interpreted within the entire scope of scripture. So as many texts that we have that say the above . . . they must also be reconciled with the texts that say:

Matt 25:41-42
41 "Then He will also say to those on His left, ' Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;
NASU

Matt 25:46
"These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."
NASU

Rev 14:9-11
"If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11 "And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name."
NASU

Rev 21:8
a But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death."
NASU
Rev 21:27
27 and nothing unclean, and no one who practices abomination and lying, shall ever come into it, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb's book of life.
NASU


Where we see that "death" as in second death, is surely figurative (as it is in Eph 2 where those who are dead in sin are still alive as death does not mean cessation of consciousness but in relationship to God), because the smoke of their torment cannot ascend forever because their torment, which CAUSES the smoke would cease . . . and eternal punishment cannot be punishment without the cognizant AWARENESS of the punishment, otherwise it would be "into their eternal judgement."

So, even tho we have the plethora of passages that refer to death in the OT as the sleep of the soul, or cessation of consciousness, we must ALSO include the passages from the NT that shed light on previous revelation.

The other hermeneutical principle that must be considered is the progressiveness of revelation. That which comes last progressively reveals that which has already come . . . hence Jesus is simply a "seed" in Genesis 3 and is "messiah" in the latter prophets. Here, we have the common concepts of emotional expression of what the person THOUGHT the afterlife was about and the latter doctrinal explication on what the afterlife ACTUALLY IS.

Now, I ask, if the Jewish Rabbiis and philosophers read these and other scriptures, how could they dream up that man's soul is "immortal"?

Sorry to answer a question with a question . . . but u do believe in the resurrection tho right? Did u kno that the resurrection is also a teaching that is only supported 2x's in the OT? The doctrine of resurrection came about at the same time as the doctrine of eternal conscious torment for the wicked. BOTH arrive in 2nd temple Judaism during the rise of the pharisaical order (who werent started with bad intentions nor corrupt as the class in Jesus' day).

Here are the facts:

During the composition of the NT and the teachings of Jesus Himself, there were 3 Judaic sects, Sadducees, Pharisees and the Essenes. Two of the 3 (Pharisees and Essenes) believed in eternal joy for the righteous and eternal torment for the wicked. That is 66.6666% of the theological teachings of the day that SUPPORT eternal conscious suffering. THAT is the context to which Jesus' teaching are understood . . . and how the Rabbi's would view them.

The only ones who would reject the teaching would be those who ALSO rejected angels, resurrection and the eternality of the soul . . . the Saducees.

Cheers

MTK

 

[Der Alte]

Well, hermeneutucally, you must not interpret scripture in a vacuum . . . it must be interpreted within the entire scope of scripture. So as many texts that we have that say the above . . . they must also be reconciled with the texts that say:

Matt 25:41-42
41 "Then He will also say to those on His left, ' Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;
NASU

Matt 25:46
"These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."
NASU

Rev 14:9-11
"If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11 "And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name."
NASU

Rev 21:8
a But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death."
NASU
Rev 21:27
27 and nothing unclean, and no one who practices abomination and lying, shall ever come into it, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb's book of life.
NASU

Where we see that "death" as in second death, is surely figurative (as it is in Eph 2 where those who are dead in sin are still alive as death does not mean cessation of consciousness but in relationship to God), because the smoke of their torment cannot ascend forever because their torment, which CAUSES the smoke would cease . . . and eternal punishment cannot be punishment without the cognizant AWARENESS of the punishment, otherwise it would be "into their eternal judgement."

So, even tho we have the plethora of passages that refer to death in the OT as the sleep of the soul, or cessation of consciousness, we must ALSO include the passages from the NT that shed light on previous revelation.

The other hermeneutical principle that must be considered is the progressiveness of revelation. That which comes last progressively reveals that which has already come . . . hence Jesus is simply a "seed" in Genesis 3 and is "messiah" in the latter prophets. Here, we have the common concepts of emotional expression of what the person THOUGHT the afterlife was about and the latter doctrinal explication on what the afterlife ACTUALLY IS.

Sorry to answer a question with a question . . . but u do believe in the resurrection tho right? Did u kno that the resurrection is also a teaching that is only supported 2x's in the OT? The doctrine of resurrection came about at the same time as the doctrine of eternal conscious torment for the wicked. BOTH arrive in 2nd temple Judaism during the rise of the pharisaical order (who werent started with bad intentions nor corrupt as the class in Jesus' day).

Here are the facts:

During the composition of the NT and the teachings of Jesus Himself, there were 3 Judaic sects, Sadducees, Pharisees and the Essenes. Two of the 3 (Pharisees and Essenes) believed in eternal joy for the righteous and eternal torment for the wicked. That is 66.6666% of the theological teachings of the day that SUPPORT eternal conscious suffering. THAT is the context to which Jesus' teaching are understood . . . and how the Rabbi's would view them.

The only ones who would reject the teaching would be those who ALSO rejected angels, resurrection and the eternality of the soul . . . the Saducees.

Cheers

MTK

Alfred Edersheim, Life and Times of Jesus, the Messiah, Appendix, xix, "On Eternal Punishment, according to the Rabbis and the New Testament Appendix XIX

Leaving aside the teaching of the Apocrypha and Pseudepigraphic Writing (to which Dr. Pusey has sufficiently referred), the first Rabbinic utterances come to us from the time immediately before that of Christ, from the Schools of Shammai and Hillel (Rosh haSh. 16 b last four lines, and 17 a). [2 In view of the strange renderings and interpretations given of Rosh haSh. 16 b, 17 a, I must call special attention to this locus classicus.] The former [Shammai] arranged all mankind into three classes: the perfectly righteous, who are 'immediately written and sealed to eternal life;' the perfectly wicked, who are 'immediately written and sealed to Gehenna;' and an intermediate class. 'who go down to Gehinnom, and moan, and come up again,' according to Zech. xiii. 9, and which seemed also indicated in certain words in the Song of Hannah (1 Sam. ii. 6) The careful reader will notice that this statement implies belief in Eternal Punishment on the part of the School of Shammai. For (1) The perfectly wicked are spoken of as 'written and sealed unto Gehenna'; (2) The school of Shammai expressly quotes, in support of what it teaches about these wicked, Dan xii. 2, a passage which undoubtedly refers to the final judgment after the Resurrection; (3) The perfectly wicked, so punished, are expressly distinguished from the third, or intermediate class, who merely 'go down to Gehinnom,' but are not 'written and sealed,' and 'come up again. Substantially the same, as regards Eternity of Punishment, is the view of the School of Hillel (u. s. 17 a). In regard to sinners of Israel and of the Gentiles it teaches, indeed, that they are tormented in Gehenna for twelve months, after which their bodies and souls are burnt up an scattered as dust under the feet of the righteous; but it significantly excepts from this number certain classes of transgressors 'who go down to Gehinnom and are punished there to ages of ages.' That the Niphal form of the verb used, must mean 'punished' and not 'judged,' appears, not only from the context, but from the use of the same word and form in the same tractate (Rosh haSh. 12 a, lines 7 &c. from top), when it is said of the generation of the Flood that 'they were punished' surely not 'judged', by 'hot water.' However, therefore the School of Hillel might accentuate the mercy of God, or limit the number of those who would suffer Eternal Punishment, it did teach Eternal Punishment in the case of some. And this is the point in question.

The doctrine of the Eternity of Punishments seems to have been held by the Synagogue throughout he whole first century of our era. This will appear from the sayings of the Teachers who flourished during its course. The Jewish Parable of the fate of those who had not kept their festive garments in readiness or appeared in such as were not clean (Shabb. 152 b, 153 a) has been already quoted in our exposition of the Parables of the Man without the Wedding-garment and of the Ten Virgins. But we have more than this. We are told (Ber. 28 b) that, when that great Rabbinic authority of the first century, Rabbi Jochanan ben Zakkai, 'the light of Israel, the right hand pillar, the mighty hammer', lay a dying and wept, he accounted for his tears by fear as to his fate in judgment, illustrating the danger by the contrast of punishment by an earthly king 'whose bonds are not eternal bonds nor his death eternal death,' while as regarded God and His judgment: 'if He is angry with me, His Wrath is an Eternal Wrath, if He binds me in fetters, His fetters are Eternal fetters, and if He kills me, His death is an Eternal Death.' In the same direction is this saying of another great Rabbi of the first century, Elieser (Shabb, 152 b, about the middle), to the effect that 'the souls of the righteous are hidden under the throne of glory,' while those of the wicked were to be bound and in unrest, one Angel hurling them to another from one end of the world to the other, of which latter strange idea he saw confirmation in 1 Sam. xxv. 29. To the fate of the righteous applied, among other beautiful passages, Is. lvii. 2, to that of the wicked Is. lvii. 21. Evidently, the views of the Rabbis of the first century were in strict accordance with those Shammai and Hillel.
​

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

*snip*

The Jewish Parable of the fate of those who had not kept their festive garments in readiness or appeared in such as were not clean (Shabb. 152 b, 153 a) has been already quoted in our exposition of the Parables of the Man without the Wedding-garment and of the Ten Virgins.

Ahhh....I just happen to have a thread on that [I am also working on creating one about the 10 virgins]

http://www.christianforums.com/t7460817/
Matthew 22 and the "Man" not clothed for wedding feast

 

[Mathetes the kerux]

Alfred Edersheim, Life and Times of Jesus, the Messiah, Appendix, xix, "On Eternal Punishment, according to the Rabbis and the New Testament Appendix XIX
​

Leaving aside the teaching of the Apocrypha and Pseudepigraphic Writing (to which Dr. Pusey has sufficiently referred), the first Rabbinic utterances come to us from the time immediately before that of Christ, from the Schools of Shammai and Hillel (Rosh haSh. 16 b last four lines, and 17 a). [2 In view of the strange renderings and interpretations given of Rosh haSh. 16 b, 17 a, I must call special attention to this locus classicus.] The former [Shammai] arranged all mankind into three classes: the perfectly righteous, who are 'immediately written and sealed to eternal life;' the perfectly wicked, who are 'immediately written and sealed to Gehenna;' and an intermediate class. 'who go down to Gehinnom, and moan, and come up again,' according to Zech. xiii. 9, and which seemed also indicated in certain words in the Song of Hannah (1 Sam. ii. 6) The careful reader will notice that this statement implies belief in Eternal Punishment on the part of the School of Shammai. For (1) The perfectly wicked are spoken of as 'written and sealed unto Gehenna'; (2) The school of Shammai expressly quotes, in support of what it teaches about these wicked, Dan xii. 2, a passage which undoubtedly refers to the final judgment after the Resurrection; (3) The perfectly wicked, so punished, are expressly distinguished from the third, or intermediate class, who merely 'go down to Gehinnom,' but are not 'written and sealed,' and 'come up again. Substantially the same, as regards Eternity of Punishment, is the view of the School of Hillel (u. s. 17 a). In regard to sinners of Israel and of the Gentiles it teaches, indeed, that they are tormented in Gehenna for twelve months, after which their bodies and souls are burnt up an scattered as dust under the feet of the righteous; but it significantly excepts from this number certain classes of transgressors 'who go down to Gehinnom and are punished there to ages of ages.' That the Niphal form of the verb used, must mean 'punished' and not 'judged,' appears, not only from the context, but from the use of the same word and form in the same tractate (Rosh haSh. 12 a, lines 7 &c. from top), when it is said of the generation of the Flood that 'they were punished' surely not 'judged', by 'hot water.' However, therefore the School of Hillel might accentuate the mercy of God, or limit the number of those who would suffer Eternal Punishment, it did teach Eternal Punishment in the case of some. And this is the point in question.

The doctrine of the Eternity of Punishments seems to have been held by the Synagogue throughout he whole first century of our era. This will appear from the sayings of the Teachers who flourished during its course. The Jewish Parable of the fate of those who had not kept their festive garments in readiness or appeared in such as were not clean (Shabb. 152 b, 153 a) has been already quoted in our exposition of the Parables of the Man without the Wedding-garment and of the Ten Virgins. But we have more than this. We are told (Ber. 28 b) that, when that great Rabbinic authority of the first century, Rabbi Jochanan ben Zakkai, 'the light of Israel, the right hand pillar, the mighty hammer', lay a dying and wept, he accounted for his tears by fear as to his fate in judgment, illustrating the danger by the contrast of punishment by an earthly king 'whose bonds are not eternal bonds nor his death eternal death,' while as regarded God and His judgment: 'if He is angry with me, His Wrath is an Eternal Wrath, if He binds me in fetters, His fetters are Eternal fetters, and if He kills me, His death is an Eternal Death.' In the same direction is this saying of another great Rabbi of the first century, Elieser (Shabb, 152 b, about the middle), to the effect that 'the souls of the righteous are hidden under the throne of glory,' while those of the wicked were to be bound and in unrest, one Angel hurling them to another from one end of the world to the other, of which latter strange idea he saw confirmation in 1 Sam. xxv. 29. To the fate of the righteous applied, among other beautiful passages, Is. lvii. 2, to that of the wicked Is. lvii. 21. Evidently, the views of the Rabbis of the first century were in strict accordance with those Shammai and Hillel.
​

Amen. Further evidence for the Rabbinic theology of the day. FYI, in further evidence u may want to procure writings from the DSS's as well that demonstrate that the Essenes held to an eternal conscious torment for the wicked as well . . . or online resources too.

 

[Der Alte]

Amen. Further evidence for the Rabbinic theology of the day. FYI, in further evidence u may want to procure writings from the DSS's as well that demonstrate that the Essenes held to an eternal conscious torment for the wicked as well . . . or online resources too.

Funny that you should ask.

Ignatius of Antioch

"Corrupters of families will not inherit the kingdom of God. And if they who do these things according to the flesh suffer death, how much more if a man corrupt by evil teaching the faith of God for the sake of which Jesus Christ was crucified? A man become so foul will depart into unquenchable fire: and so will anyone who listens to him" (Letter to the Ephesians 16:1–2 [A.D. 110]).

Second Clement

"If we do the will of Christ, we shall obtain rest; but if not, if we neglect his commandments, nothing will rescue us from eternal punishment" (Second Clement 5:5 [A.D. 150]).

"But when they see how those who have sinned and who have denied Jesus by their words or by their deeds are punished with terrible torture in unquenchable fire, the righteous, who have done good, and who have endured tortures and have hated the luxuries of life, will give glory to their God saying, ‘There shall be hope for him that has served God with all his heart!’" (ibid., 17:7).

Justin Martyr

"No more is it possible for the evildoer, the avaricious, and the treacherous to hide from God than it is for the virtuous. Every man will receive the eternal punishment or reward which his actions deserve. Indeed, if all men recognized this, no one would choose evil even for a short time, knowing that he would incur the eternal sentence of fire. On the contrary, he would take every means to control himself and to adorn himself in virtue, so that he might obtain the good gifts of God and escape the punishments" (First Apology 12 [A.D. 151]).

"We have been taught that only they may aim at immortality who have lived a holy and virtuous life near to God. We believe that they who live wickedly and do not repent will be punished in everlasting fire" (ibid., 21).

"[Jesus] shall come from the heavens in glory with his angelic host, when he shall raise the bodies of all the men who ever lived. Then he will clothe the worthy in immortality; but the wicked, clothed in eternal sensibility, he will commit to the eternal fire, along with the evil demons" (ibid., 52).

The Martyrdom of Polycarp

"Fixing their minds on the grace of Christ, [the martyrs] despised worldly tortures and purchased eternal life with but a single hour. To them, the fire of their cruel torturers was cold. They kept before their eyes their escape from the eternal and unquenchable fire" (Martyrdom of Polycarp 2:3 [A.D. 155]).

Mathetes

"When you know what is the true life, that of heaven; when you despise the merely apparent death, which is temporal; when you fear the death which is real, and which is reserved for those who will be condemned to the everlasting fire, the fire which will punish even to the end those who are delivered to it, then you will condemn the deceit and error of the world" (Letter to Diognetus 10:7 [A.D. 160]).

Athenagoras

"[W]e [Christians] are persuaded that when we are removed from this present life we shall live another life, better than the present one. . . . Then we shall abide near God and with God, changeless and free from suffering in the soul . . . or if we fall with the rest [of mankind], a worse one and in fire; for God has not made us as sheep or beasts of burden, a mere incidental work, that we should perish and be annihilated" (Plea for the Christians 31 [A.D. 177]).

Theophilus of Antioch

"Give studious attention to the prophetic writings [the Bible] and they will lead you on a clearer path to escape the eternal punishments and to obtain the eternal good things of God. . . . [God] will examine everything and will judge justly, granting recompense to each according to merit. To those who seek immortality by the patient exercise of good works, he will give everlasting life, joy, peace, rest, and all good things. . . . For the unbelievers and for the contemptuous, and for those who do not submit to the truth but assent to iniquity, when they have been involved in adulteries, and fornications, and homosexualities, and avarice, and in lawless idolatries, there will be wrath and indignation, tribulation and anguish; and in the end, such men as these will be detained in everlasting fire" (To Autolycus 1:14 [A.D. 181])

Irenaeus

"[God will] send the spiritual forces of wickedness, and the angels who transgressed and became apostates, and the impious, unjust, lawless, and blasphemous among men into everlasting fire" (Against Heresies 1:10:1 [A.D. 189]).

"The penalty increases for those who do not believe the Word of God and despise his coming. . . . t is not merely temporal, but eternal. To whomsoever the Lord shall say, ‘Depart from me, accursed ones, into the everlasting fire,’ they will be damned forever" (ibid., 4:28:2).

Tertullian

"After the present age is ended he will judge his worshipers for a reward of eternal life and the godless for a fire equally perpetual and unending" (Apology 18:3 [A.D. 197]).

"Then will the entire race of men be restored to receive its just deserts according to what it has merited in this period of good and evil, and thereafter to have these paid out in an immeasurable and unending eternity. Then there will be neither death again nor resurrection again, but we shall be always the same as we are now, without changing. The worshipers of God shall always be with God, clothed in the proper substance of eternity. But the godless and those who have not turned wholly to God will be punished in fire equally unending, and they shall have from the very nature of this fire, divine as it were, a supply of incorruptibility" (ibid., 44:12–13).

Hippolytus

"Standing before [Christ’s] judgment, all of them, men, angels, and demons, crying out in one voice, shall say: ‘Just is your judgment!’ And the righteousness of that cry will be apparent in the recompense made to each. To those who have done well, everlasting enjoyment shall be given; while to the lovers of evil shall be given eternal punishment. The unquenchable and unending fire awaits these latter, and a certain fiery worm which does not die and which does not waste the body but continually bursts forth from the body with unceasing pain. No sleep will give them rest; no night will soothe them; no death will deliver them from punishment; no appeal of interceding friends will profit them" (Against the Greeks 3 [A.D. 212]).

Minucius Felix

"I am not ignorant of the fact that many, in the consciousness of what they deserve, would rather hope than actually believe that there is nothing for them after death. They would prefer to be annihilated rather than be restored for punishment. . . . Nor is there either measure nor end to these torments. That clever fire burns the limbs and restores them, wears them away and yet sustains them, just as fiery thunderbolts strike bodies but do not consume them" (Octavius 34:12–5:3 [A.D. 226]).

Cyprian of Carthage

"An ever-burning Gehenna and the punishment of being devoured by living flames will consume the condemned; nor will there be any way in which the tormented can ever have respite or be at an end. Souls along with their bodies will be preserved for suffering in unlimited agonies. . . . The grief at punishment will then be without the fruit of repentance; weeping will be useless, and prayer ineffectual. Too late will they believe in eternal punishment, who would not believe in eternal life" (To Demetrian 24 [A.D. 252]).

Lactantius

"[T]he sacred writings inform us in what manner the wicked are to undergo punishment. For because they have committed sins in their bodies, they will again be clothed with flesh, that they may make atonement in their bodies; and yet it will not be that flesh with which God clothed man, like this our earthly body, but indestructible, and abiding forever, that it may be able to hold out against tortures and everlasting fire, the nature of which is different from this fire of ours, which we use for the necessary purposes of life, and which is extinguished unless it be sustained by the fuel of some material. But that divine fire always lives by itself, and flourishes without any nourishment. . . . The same divine fire, therefore, with one and the same force and power, will both burn the wicked and will form them again, and will replace as much as it shall consume of their bodies, and will supply itself with eternal nourishment. . . . Thus, without any wasting of bodies, which regain their substance, it will only burn and affect them with a sense of pain. But when [God] shall have judged the righteous, he will also try them with fire" (Divine Institutes 7:21 [A.D. 307]).

Cyril of Jerusalem

"We shall be raised therefore, all with our bodies eternal, but not all with bodies alike: for if a man is righteous, he will receive a heavenly body, that he may be able worthily to hold converse with angels; but if a man is a sinner, he shall receive an eternal body, fitted to endure the penalties of sins, that he may burn eternally in fire, nor ever be consumed. And righteously will God assign this portion to either company; for we do nothing without the body. We blaspheme with the mouth, and with the mouth we pray. With the body we commit fornication, and with the body we keep chastity. With the hand we rob, and by the hand we bestow alms; and the rest in like manner. Since then the body has been our minister in all things, it shall also share with us in the future the fruits of the past" (Catechetical Lectures 18:19 [A.D. 350]).​

​

 

[Mathetes the kerux]

Funny that you should ask.

Ignatius of Antioch
​

"Corrupters of families will not inherit the kingdom of God. And if they who do these things according to the flesh suffer death, how much more if a man corrupt by evil teaching the faith of God for the sake of which Jesus Christ was crucified? A man become so foul will depart into unquenchable fire: and so will anyone who listens to him" (Letter to the Ephesians 16:1–2 [A.D. 110]).

Second Clement

"If we do the will of Christ, we shall obtain rest; but if not, if we neglect his commandments, nothing will rescue us from eternal punishment" (Second Clement 5:5 [A.D. 150]).

"But when they see how those who have sinned and who have denied Jesus by their words or by their deeds are punished with terrible torture in unquenchable fire, the righteous, who have done good, and who have endured tortures and have hated the luxuries of life, will give glory to their God saying, ‘There shall be hope for him that has served God with all his heart!’" (ibid., 17:7).

Justin Martyr

"No more is it possible for the evildoer, the avaricious, and the treacherous to hide from God than it is for the virtuous. Every man will receive the eternal punishment or reward which his actions deserve. Indeed, if all men recognized this, no one would choose evil even for a short time, knowing that he would incur the eternal sentence of fire. On the contrary, he would take every means to control himself and to adorn himself in virtue, so that he might obtain the good gifts of God and escape the punishments" (First Apology 12 [A.D. 151]).

"We have been taught that only they may aim at immortality who have lived a holy and virtuous life near to God. We believe that they who live wickedly and do not repent will be punished in everlasting fire" (ibid., 21).

"[Jesus] shall come from the heavens in glory with his angelic host, when he shall raise the bodies of all the men who ever lived. Then he will clothe the worthy in immortality; but the wicked, clothed in eternal sensibility, he will commit to the eternal fire, along with the evil demons" (ibid., 52).

The Martyrdom of Polycarp

"Fixing their minds on the grace of Christ, [the martyrs] despised worldly tortures and purchased eternal life with but a single hour. To them, the fire of their cruel torturers was cold. They kept before their eyes their escape from the eternal and unquenchable fire" (Martyrdom of Polycarp 2:3 [A.D. 155]).

Mathetes

"When you know what is the true life, that of heaven; when you despise the merely apparent death, which is temporal; when you fear the death which is real, and which is reserved for those who will be condemned to the everlasting fire, the fire which will punish even to the end those who are delivered to it, then you will condemn the deceit and error of the world" (Letter to Diognetus 10:7 [A.D. 160]).

Athenagoras

"[W]e [Christians] are persuaded that when we are removed from this present life we shall live another life, better than the present one. . . . Then we shall abide near God and with God, changeless and free from suffering in the soul . . . or if we fall with the rest [of mankind], a worse one and in fire; for God has not made us as sheep or beasts of burden, a mere incidental work, that we should perish and be annihilated" (Plea for the Christians 31 [A.D. 177]).

Theophilus of Antioch

"Give studious attention to the prophetic writings [the Bible] and they will lead you on a clearer path to escape the eternal punishments and to obtain the eternal good things of God. . . . [God] will examine everything and will judge justly, granting recompense to each according to merit. To those who seek immortality by the patient exercise of good works, he will give everlasting life, joy, peace, rest, and all good things. . . . For the unbelievers and for the contemptuous, and for those who do not submit to the truth but assent to iniquity, when they have been involved in adulteries, and fornications, and homosexualities, and avarice, and in lawless idolatries, there will be wrath and indignation, tribulation and anguish; and in the end, such men as these will be detained in everlasting fire" (To Autolycus 1:14 [A.D. 181])

Irenaeus

"[God will] send the spiritual forces of wickedness, and the angels who transgressed and became apostates, and the impious, unjust, lawless, and blasphemous among men into everlasting fire" (Against Heresies 1:10:1 [A.D. 189]).

"The penalty increases for those who do not believe the Word of God and despise his coming. . . . t is not merely temporal, but eternal. To whomsoever the Lord shall say, ‘Depart from me, accursed ones, into the everlasting fire,’ they will be damned forever" (ibid., 4:28:2).

Tertullian

"After the present age is ended he will judge his worshipers for a reward of eternal life and the godless for a fire equally perpetual and unending" (Apology 18:3 [A.D. 197]).

"Then will the entire race of men be restored to receive its just deserts according to what it has merited in this period of good and evil, and thereafter to have these paid out in an immeasurable and unending eternity. Then there will be neither death again nor resurrection again, but we shall be always the same as we are now, without changing. The worshipers of God shall always be with God, clothed in the proper substance of eternity. But the godless and those who have not turned wholly to God will be punished in fire equally unending, and they shall have from the very nature of this fire, divine as it were, a supply of incorruptibility" (ibid., 44:12–13).

Hippolytus

"Standing before [Christ’s] judgment, all of them, men, angels, and demons, crying out in one voice, shall say: ‘Just is your judgment!’ And the righteousness of that cry will be apparent in the recompense made to each. To those who have done well, everlasting enjoyment shall be given; while to the lovers of evil shall be given eternal punishment. The unquenchable and unending fire awaits these latter, and a certain fiery worm which does not die and which does not waste the body but continually bursts forth from the body with unceasing pain. No sleep will give them rest; no night will soothe them; no death will deliver them from punishment; no appeal of interceding friends will profit them" (Against the Greeks 3 [A.D. 212]).

Minucius Felix

"I am not ignorant of the fact that many, in the consciousness of what they deserve, would rather hope than actually believe that there is nothing for them after death. They would prefer to be annihilated rather than be restored for punishment. . . . Nor is there either measure nor end to these torments. That clever fire burns the limbs and restores them, wears them away and yet sustains them, just as fiery thunderbolts strike bodies but do not consume them" (Octavius 34:12–5:3 [A.D. 226]).

Cyprian of Carthage

"An ever-burning Gehenna and the punishment of being devoured by living flames will consume the condemned; nor will there be any way in which the tormented can ever have respite or be at an end. Souls along with their bodies will be preserved for suffering in unlimited agonies. . . . The grief at punishment will then be without the fruit of repentance; weeping will be useless, and prayer ineffectual. Too late will they believe in eternal punishment, who would not believe in eternal life" (To Demetrian 24 [A.D. 252]).

Lactantius

"[T]he sacred writings inform us in what manner the wicked are to undergo punishment. For because they have committed sins in their bodies, they will again be clothed with flesh, that they may make atonement in their bodies; and yet it will not be that flesh with which God clothed man, like this our earthly body, but indestructible, and abiding forever, that it may be able to hold out against tortures and everlasting fire, the nature of which is different from this fire of ours, which we use for the necessary purposes of life, and which is extinguished unless it be sustained by the fuel of some material. But that divine fire always lives by itself, and flourishes without any nourishment. . . . The same divine fire, therefore, with one and the same force and power, will both burn the wicked and will form them again, and will replace as much as it shall consume of their bodies, and will supply itself with eternal nourishment. . . . Thus, without any wasting of bodies, which regain their substance, it will only burn and affect them with a sense of pain. But when [God] shall have judged the righteous, he will also try them with fire" (Divine Institutes 7:21 [A.D. 307]).

Cyril of Jerusalem

"We shall be raised therefore, all with our bodies eternal, but not all with bodies alike: for if a man is righteous, he will receive a heavenly body, that he may be able worthily to hold converse with angels; but if a man is a sinner, he shall receive an eternal body, fitted to endure the penalties of sins, that he may burn eternally in fire, nor ever be consumed. And righteously will God assign this portion to either company; for we do nothing without the body. We blaspheme with the mouth, and with the mouth we pray. With the body we commit fornication, and with the body we keep chastity. With the hand we rob, and by the hand we bestow alms; and the rest in like manner. Since then the body has been our minister in all things, it shall also share with us in the future the fruits of the past" (Catechetical Lectures 18:19 [A.D. 350]).
​

Amen, shows that the Church Fathers had the understanding from Scripture that Hell was both eternal and conscious . . .

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

LLOJ unsubscribes........

http://www.christianforums.com/t7463551/#post54650780

 

[JamesAH]

LLOJ unsubscribes........but I'll be back to post some more

http://www.christianforums.com/t7463551/#post54650780

Fixed

 

[Christos Anesti]

Yay, another good excuse to quote my hero St Isaac of Syria

As for me I say that those who are tormented in hell are tormented by the invasion of love. What is there more bitter and violent than the pains of love? Those who feel they have sinned against love bear in themselves a damnation much heavier than the most dreaded punishments. The suffering with which sinning against love afflicts the heart is more keenly felt than any other torment. It is absurd to assume that the sinners in hell are deprived of God’s love. Love is offered impartially. But by its very power it acts in two ways. It torments sinners, as happens here on earth when we are tormented by the presence of a friend to whom we have been unfaithful. And it gives joy to those who have been faithful.

That is what the torment of hell is in my opinion: remorse. But love inebriates the souls of the sons and daughters of heaven by its delectability.

If zeal had been appropriate for putting humanity right, why did God the Word clothe himself in the body, using gentleness and humility in order to bring the world back to his Father?

Sin is the fruit of free will. There was a time when sin did not exist, and there will be a time when it will not exist.

God’s recompense to sinners is that, instead of a just recompense, God rewards them with resurrection.

O wonder! The Creator clothed in a human being enters the house of tax collectors and prostitutes. Thus the entire universe, through the beauty of the sight of him, was drawn by his love to the single confession of God, the Lord of all.

“Will God, if I ask, forgive me these things by which I am pained and by whose memory I am tormented, things by which, though I abhor them, I go on backsliding? Yet after they have taken place the pain they give me is even greater than that of a scorpion’s sting. Though I abhor them, I am still in the middle of them, and when I repent of them with suffering I wretchedly return to them again.”

This is how many God-fearing people think, people who foster virtue and are pricked with the suffering of compunction, who mourn over their sin; They live between sin and repentance all the time. Let us not be in doubt, O fellow humanity, concerning the hope of our salvation, seeing that the One who bore sufferings for our sakes is very concerned about our salvation; God’s mercifulness is far more extensive than we can conceive, God’s grace is greater than what we ask for.

When we find love, we partake of heavenly bread and are made strong without labor and toil. The heavenly bread is Christ, who came down from heaven and gave life to the world. This is the nourishment of angels. The person who has found love eats and drinks Christ every day and every hour and is thereby made immortal. …When we hear Jesus say, “Ye shall eat and drink at the table of my kingdom,” what do we suppose we shall eat, if not love? Love, rather than food and drink, is sufficient to nourish a person. This is the wine “which maketh glad the heart.” Blessed is the one who partakes of this wine! Licentious people have drunk this wine and become chaste; sinners have drunk it and have forgotten the pathways of stumbling; drunkards have drunk this wine and become fasters; the rich have drunk it and desired poverty, the poor have drunk it and been enriched with hope; the sick have drunk it and become strong; the unlearned have taken it and become wise.

Repentance is given us as grace after grace, for repentance is a second regeneration by God. That of which we have received an earnest by baptism, we receive as a gift by means of repentance. Repentance is the door of mercy, opened to those who seek it. By this door we enter into the mercy of God, and apart from this entrance we shall not find mercy.

Blessed is God who uses corporeal objects continually to draw us close in a symbolic way to a knowledge of God’s invisible nature. O name of Jesus, key to all gifts, open up for me the great door to your treasure-house, that I may enter and praise you with the praise that comes from the heart.

O my Hope, pour into my heart the inebriation that consists in the hope of you. O Jesus Christ, the resurrection and light of all worlds, place upon my soul’s head the crown of knowledge of you; open before me all of a sudden the door of mercies, cause the rays of your grace to shine out in my heart.

O Christ, who are covered with light as though with a garment, who for my sake stood naked in front of Pilate, clothe me with that might which you caused to overshadow the saints, whereby they conquered this world of struggle. May your Divinity, Lord, take pleasure in me, and lead me above the world to be with you.

I give praise to your holy Nature, Lord, for you have made my nature a sanctuary for your hiddenness and a tabernacle for your holy mysteries, a place where you can dwell, and a holy temple for your Divinity

 

[Der Alte]

Yay, another good excuse to quote my hero St Isaac of Syria

As for me I say that those who are tormented in hell are tormented by the invasion of love. What is there more bitter and violent than the pains of love? Those who feel they have sinned against love bear in themselves a damnation much heavier than the most dreaded punishments. The suffering with which sinning against love afflicts the heart is more keenly felt than any other torment. It is absurd to assume that the sinners in hell are deprived of God’s love. Love is offered impartially. But by its very power it acts in two ways. It torments sinners, as happens here on earth when we are tormented by the presence of a friend to whom we have been unfaithful. And it gives joy to those who have been faithful.

That is what the torment of hell is in my opinion: remorse. But love inebriates the souls of the sons and daughters of heaven by its delectability.[ . . . ]

And we can see that reflected in the way men behave in the here and now. The rapist/murderer/pedophile, etc. who is released from prison is so overcome by love he is inebriated by its delectability and instantly becomes a model citizen.

 

[Christos Anesti]

I would say that most rapists/murderers/etc live lives of misery and are already experincing a hell of sort . I doubt they are increadibly joyful beings to say the least. When you do things that horendous you really bring a lot of suffering on yourselves and cause damage to your mind and soul. Can you imagine how one would feel when touched by the love of God and His presence when they have rejected Him and say no to His love? That could even break the heart of even the most hardned and cruel man. To know that you turned down such beauty and love for the sake of pride and ego. To look on the one you have pierced and who laid down His life for you.

 

[SummaScriptura]

Amen. Further evidence for the Rabbinic theology of the day. FYI, in further evidence u may want to procure writings from the DSS's as well that demonstrate that the Essenes held to an eternal conscious torment for the wicked as well . . . or online resources too.

Except that the idea the books of the DSS belong to the Essenes is an idea that dies hard, but has been prooved to be false by evidence.

Qumran was not an Essene scribal settlement:
1. No scriptorium, nor the implements of a scriptorium capable of produicing the DSS has been found in Qumran.
2. The graves of women are found in those at Qumran. Not what one might find at an outpost of ascetics.
3. The scrolls have been demonstrated to be the products of many hands produced over a period of centuries. Some of the scrolls evidence a lack of scribal craft. An outpost of scribes would show more recurrent examples of individuals dedicated to the scribal craft, and less variety of hands.

The latest scholarship, coming after 1989, when the DSS were wrested from the monopolistic control of a handfull of researchers, has tended toward the conclusion the DSS represent a gathering of scrolls with multiple provenance, perhaps from across Jerusalem and deposited in the caves in 68 AD.

So the DSS demonstrate what Judaism was like in 1st century Israel, not only the ideas of one sect. Belief in an eternally burning hell was commonplace.

The idea that the scrolls were the product of a sect of Essenes was put forward and defended for nearly 40 years by two Dominican priests, Father Roland de Raud and Father Josef T. Milik. It now seems these men projected European monastic forms into a thoroughly Jewish 1st century situation.

 

[brinny]

I would say that most rapists/murderers/etc live lives of misery and are already experincing a hell of sort . I doubt they are increadibly joyful beings to say the least. When you do things that horendous you really bring a lot of suffering on yourselves and cause damage to your mind and soul. Can you imagine how one would feel when touched by the love of God and His presence when they have rejected Him and say no to His love? That could even break the heart of even the most hardned and cruel man. To know that you turned down such beauty and love for the sake of pride and ego. To look on the one you have pierced and who laid down His life for you.

psychopaths and/or sociopaths feel none of those things. THey have no consciences. After gory killings and or tortures, they step over the pieces of the body and go have a good meal.

God hates sin. He's not sentimental about it at all. Our focus should be on justice and righteousness, which is of God's own heart. He hates injustice and unrighteousness. Those who glory in it He has much to say about how, when they face Him, it is terrifying. He won't be smiling. His wrath will pour out. THere will be no place to hide.

"It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God." ~Hebrews 10:31